Top WMS spring
Bottom Spooky spring

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Solved my knock down problem

Little surprised this passed QA the flippers are bad. But easy fix.

Now tackling the portal diverter as it works about 25% of time.

That being said this newer builds are dialed in a lot better on geometry than earlier builds.

Did you change to Williams springs or just gapped EOS and upped hold power?

Just changed the springs

Is there a post that shows how the house comes out?

Or is there a trick to getting at the diverter

Good news!!! Sent an email to Spooky service about the springs, sounds like this is the answer to the flipper problems.

When I put together the prototype it was just like this, with the full circumference ring. I played quite a few test games before I came across the hangup caused by not having a cutout for the orbit gutter/groove. I posted an update to the original post, and emailed Mantis about it. However it looks like this version shown above has no notch/cutout in the ring to let slow rolling balls drop into the portal (from orbit) without getting hung up.

Just FYI for everyone or anyone whom followed my posted diagram to make their own, there ended up being a minor update to that design to include the cutaway and prevent occasional stucky balls.

Wow...that would be great. What flipper problem does the spring solve again? None of the posts I read were clear...other than generating less heat? Do you have a link to the correct springs to purchase?

The bigger/beefier spring Spooky is using requires the coil to use more power holding the flipper in the up position. More power uses creates more heat and if the power isn't enough you will see knockdowns. Link to the Williams ones,

https://www.pinballlife.com/search.html

https://www.pinballlife.com/williamsbally-flipper-extension-spring.html

Both ramps have to come off first to get access to the screws on either side of the house (1 screw on either side). At least, that's the only way I could get to those screws.

If I recall correctly TheNoTrashCougar recommends SEGA/Stern flipper springs.

Either way, this is my view and I put SEGA springs on my TNA when the originals broke. They are slightly heavier then WMS, but not like the spring pictured which is obviously much heavier and significantly larger.

I haven't had flipper issues after reducing the bush height, so have not thought to replace with lighter more standard weight springs. Will probably do that though now that it has been highlighted.

https://www.pinballlife.com/segastern-flipper-extension-spring.html

This is the one, SEGA/Stern, as the description goes "... almost identical to a Williams/Bally flipper extension spring, but it is much stronger.". Not to be confused with the DE/SEGA springs which seem to be the supersize monsters fitted to our games.

This still seems individual and doesn't fix the problem. It's Spooky has been using the beefier springs on all of their games, then how do we explain the people that don't have issues with their flippers?

I just changed my flipper alignment so that the Flipper with the rubber on rests against a toothpick. Now I cannot backhand the right ramp.

Any suggestions?

If I remember correctly, they changed to the beefier springs after the WMS style ones on the early TNAs would shit themselves prematurely.

Of course, it stands to reason that the less resistance the spring has, the less force required to move the flipper up.

And, if the spring was too strong, while the flipper is held up under power, it could pull back the flipper pawl a tiny bit at the end of stroke and engage the EOS switch.

Certainly trying a little spring would be worth a shot.

BTW - the majority of R&Ms that I know of have no flipper issues. Mine never has.

rd

Exactly my point about this not making any sense, and you have the beefier springs, right?

Have you made any changes at all to the flippers/bushings/EOS/settings?

I think you're avoiding an obvious simple fix if you have a spring to swap out and see if it makes a difference. Plenty of people in this thread has had flipper issues so it boils down to eos gap, coil settings, spring tension and flipper position. TNA can get away with stronger springs because there are no ramps in the game especially a steep one like the left R&M ramp.

I'll give it a whirl. My lower flippers are ok...no knockdowns anymore or fluttering but I don't like the hit backs it will give on a fast shot. The upper right flipper I get knocked down any time the ball makes medium contact to it. It's fine on the launch but not in fast gameplay. Hopefully this will help, thanks!

I'm surprised...mine lined up exactly to the millimeter when I installed mine on friday night. Probably a mis measurement on that one.

https://www.pinballlife.com/data-east-and-early-sega-flipper-extension-spring.html

https://www.pinballlife.com/segastern-flipper-extension-spring.html

I think there might have been a mix up perhaps, if SD suggested using "SEGA" flipper springs because they are more durable. We wanted a little beefier than WMS, not SuperMax springs. That is the bottom link for the recommended spring, very different to the top link which is the "spooky" spring, but still both are "SEGA".

Hi Eric, this is very helpful, thank you! You were right, that is definitely the audio for the Original flipper hold! What I FINALLY realized during all this troubleshooting was that my machine had to be power cycled before the "Original" flipper hold setting will take effect. Looks to be a similar situation when I need to switch back to "Default" flipper hold.

FYI, my machine had shipped with December code and it flipped great. So I was somewhat bewildered when I was recently switching back to "Original" flipper hold and getting such wonky results (flippers were collapsing non-stop). But after first setting to "Original" FOLLOWED BY A POWER CYCLE, the flipper hold is exactly what I remember from the December code!

Thanks very much for letting me know that this was the "Original" flipper pattern audio, that definitely got me on the right track!

I’ll try some of the Sega ones. This was a brand new one and it played a lot different than game number 58.

SEGA/Stern ... Not DE/SEGA.

Dramatic difference!!

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/aw-jeez-official-rick-and-morty-club/page/256#post-6245419

Nope, I have made no adjustments to the game at all.

Just plugged it in and played it.

Same as I do with all pinballs.

rd

It must not be reloading that coil setting when you exit the menu. I’ll get that fixed for the next release.

Anyone have this phenomenon with their three bank standup tagets? The bottom target lights the bottom insert. Check. But the top target lights the middle insert while the middle target lights the top insert.

I lifted the pf and observed the wire color going to each switch. Lowered the pf back down and go into switch test. Great diagnostics tools on this game btw. All targets Register correctly on the screen; the targets show sequentially from 1 (top) to 3 (bottom). Wire colors physically match the actual wire colors.

It doesn’t affect the game. I can still light Mystery and its not like I’m aiming at any one target. Just find it strange my insert lights dont match up to the targets hit.

Maybe i just need to swap the leds on those two inserts. But i’m too lazy to go back down and look if its that simple. lol.

Check the single LED test, see which light up for whatever description.

I've had this happen a few times now, the only way to remedy is to tilt the game, and the ball will finally eject itself out of the scoop. Definitely related to the latest code.

Not related to the latest code; this bug has been reported across many releases, I just haven’t been able to figure out the cause. I’ve made several guess attempts at what it might be, but apparently haven’t caught it yet.

Hey gstellenberg I think you found the solution! Put some WMS springs on the lower and upper right flippers, and immediately notice a difference. I haven't had enough game time to know for certain, but feel pretty confident the dip & flip anf flutter issue is significantly reduced or gone. This might also address the power fade issue.

How ironic is it that the guy who fixes this mysterious issue is named Gerry!!!

From now on...

Jerry = loser
Gerry = Absolute genius!

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Stern springs are the go. WMS are not so durable.

https://www.pinballlife.com/segastern-flipper-extension-spring.html

WMS springs seem to be working fine for now. Which one has more tension? WMS or Stern?

Also, question about the pop bumper... If the ball gently land on the top of it, should it fire?

Or does it need a decent hit to make it go off? I've had a lot of balls land on top of it, just to roll off and go SDTM.

Cheers

I have found the Stern/SEGA springs don't break as often. They are much closer to the same tension than the RaM standard (which seem to be DE/earlySEGA). The Stern springs are basically the same size and very similar to the WMS. Different material I think maybe.

Afaik these are what TheNoTrashCougar recommends.

I can confirm that at least *sometimes*... you need to power cycle the game when switching flipper settings. I noticed this the first time I tried the latest code and when I went from default to "original" they started fluttering repeatedly on their own. I remember thinking "Oh no this is NOT how mine were originally" but after a power cycle they then behaved as expected.

I didn't mention it as I figured it could have been a one time thing, something related to my game only, etc but now that I see another mention of it people should give it a try if you get wonky results after switching.

I have #96 and had zero flipper issues until the last update. Tried every combination of settings possible but nothing seemed to work.
Until I changed the spring like mentioned above.

This fixed it for me.
The game shoots great again

Take out the washers, tighten up the nylon lock nuts and adjust the leaf switch (clean the contacts as well).

It makes perfect sense. The spring's entire purpose is to bring the flipper down. If it's too strong, it'll bring the flipper down when you don't want it to. Software can try to overpower it, but that'll just create more heat, causing flipper fade.

Glad to hear that swapping it is helping many of you. Hopefully it's the final piece to the puzzle.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Thanks for noticing how big the springs were and bringing light to the issue. You've given a lot of owners a valid answer to months of frustration.

Owners, a control system designer, and a fantastic software developer too!

You're welcome. Fingers crossed.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

For anybody changing out your springs, remember that you have to reduce your ‘hold’ settings if you want to affect the heat issue (if the spring is really making that much difference). If you changed your springs, I would recommend:

1. Reset all the flipper control settings to their defaults.
2. Change the ‘hold pattern’ setting to ORIGINAL
2a. For now you have to reboot the game to make sure the coil hold setting changes - I’ll fix that, but for now, reboot.

Give that a whirl. I think that with the other changes made during this battle to the way recovery is done, and the original hold pattern, things should be pretty damn nice.

Of course if it doesn’t work for you, you can adjust from there; but give it a chance.

In the first prototype I did for the hole protector the ring was pretty high and could cause a slow hangup. The final version I lowered the ring slightly and both testers didn't seem to be able to duplicate the hangup. The wood V cutout has enough down slope to give the ball speed to get over the slight hump. But if anyone has a problem let me know. My testers couldn't get that problem to appear. Since the holes were different on the three test games I opted not to try to match the V for fear it would be off on too many games. Thank you to Razor for the design and idea. I think the final protector does a good job. What do you guys think?

Kerry - Mantis

I’m just curious why my slots were off so far that I had to drill an additional hole to get it so that the bottom holes lined up with both the holes in the play field and the subway.

Not that I’m mad or anything, just curious. I threw about 30 games on it over the course of the day after installing the protector and had no slow hang ups, so I think the collar portion of the protector that actually protects the hole is fine for my game. If you go back a page or two and look at my pics, you’ll see that it doesn’t really stick up any farther than the stock position of the scoop.

Now my technical skill is at the way lower end of the skill spectrum,
But I ask this question ...

Flipper mechs don't really seem that complicated, they have been on pinball since day 2 - and Stern seems to just about perfected them.
So why are other manufacturers having so many issues?

Nice catch on the springs, guys. Worth a shot. Pinball Life is $16 shipping for $1.50 in springs though. Marco is cheaper for once.

Sega/Stern
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/265-5035-00

WMS
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/10-364

So the ball should set off the pop bumper anytime the ball touches the skirt, even if it's resting on the pop bumper after rolling out of the inlane?

Yep that was the issue, the LED connectors were swapped. All is right in the world again

While i was in there i made a slight adjustment to my target switch gaps to make them more sensitive, at least until the foam pads get worn in.

Resting on the pop bumper after rolling out of the inlane? Confused.

In general, with all pops, when the ball touches the skirt, it should fire. Same is true for slings. Just like more aggressive PF angles, folks that like really lively gameplay will tighten the gaps so it's super sensitive. The switches can all be adjusted. When I replaced my pop ring, I tuned mine to fire at the slightest touch. From the factory, it was a little less sensitive.

I've had this happen too. I thought that my scoop coil went bad at first.

If you combine the springs with other items at Pinball Life the shipping cost wont seem as bad. Maybe combine it with a blue light mod. Yes, shameless plug.

RM Crystal Mod (resized).jpg

The problem with Marco's is that the springs (Sega/Stern) are .69 each if you order 1 or 2. But their "bulk discount" makes it $1.29 if you order 3 or more so they almost double in price.

I checked the WMS springs and they raise the price if you buy 5 or more as well.

Granted, they are still cheaper due to shipping, but its the principle.

I got a couple pms about this so here is what I did to 100% fix my flippers. I installed williams flipper return springs, i adjusted my flipper alignment to align to the holes in the playfield so the flipper rubber is in alignment with the lane guide, and used a flipper gapping tool to make sure the flipper bat height was correct. Game used to have issues with overheating and drops, but this fixed it all for me. I also did not lower my bushings as I am going to wait to get some from spooky but probably do not need them.