YUP, should work like a charm. Make sure you maybe read back and make sure your USB is formatted correct. I'll peek at the "Key Posts" there's a nice write up for that

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/aw-jeez-official-rick-and-morty-club/page/203#post-6086305

I hope you’re right. I’m out of town (can’t update) but the last time I played my game, I started thinking about it moving along...and only because of the damn flippers

The thing with POTC (at least in my case), even with some flipper fade every shot remains makable.

Well I had hoped this wasn't the case but with the new flipper code and extra heat, my left ramp is no longer makable after 20 minutes of play. This is super disappointing. I don't know if I should try bumping up the right flipper strength (currently at 30), or go back to the original pulse cycle and bring back the knock-downs?

vireland, any chance the stronger fan you're using for JJP will fit the Spooky purple mounting bracket?

flippers in the new code are amazing ! only played about 30 min today, but left ramp was still possible to make from a craddle.

the original pulse cycle should not bring back the knockdown. It wont affect the fact EOS are now hardware controlled

Bumping up flip strength to try to overcome power degradation due to single-wound coils heating up and/or installing fans to keep the coils cooler in the hopes of minimizing degradation are both not addressing the root cause. I mean, do them if they help, but I'd be looking for ways to keep the coil from heating up in the first place. The code suggestions I gave address knockdowns and any corner cases resulting from them. So now the programming/settings tradeoff is how strongly to hold the flipper up (which creates more heat ) vs how often to re-energize the coil to overcome knockdowns (which also generates heat, but not nearly as much as constantly pulsing the coil). It sounds like Eric implemented the fast re-energize code such that it can react almost instantaneously. So if it were me, I'd leverage that more and lower the hold power to reduce heat.

Heat is obviously one big downside to using single-wound coils. Step 1) optimize the drive parameters of the flipper to minimize heat buildup. (I don't know what settings are provided in R&M to allow you to tune these things.) Step 2) use other means to reduce the heat.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

I tried the original pulse cycle and the flippers started to fail, like the ball would hit the flipper and it would totally collapse.

Thanks for the info. I have my hold set to the lowest setting. I tried bumping the flipper strength to 35 and the left ramp was still an impossible shot. I give up. So pissed right now. Never has a pin evoked so much emotion from me. And right now that emotion is hatred and helplessness.

Sounds like there might be more going on with your machine causing the coils to have to work much hardware than on other machines. Probably best to discuss with Spooky support and isolate what's different.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

I assume you have adjusted your EOS...

What are you set at for PF angle?

I run into ramp issues at 7.2+...but down around 6.7 or so, they are both butter.
I am on the 12/20 code and typically play for about 3-5 hours a night.
A little fade post multiball (when I can keep them on the field long enough), knockdown or two when the flippers are loaded and get hit with a kickout or pop fire...but nothing that makes me feel like things aren't working the vast majority of the time.

Gerry, does the system design support the idea of adjusting hold power dynamically based on game events? I had the thought that total hold strength could be a combination of the base hold pwm value and a modifier value (either an adder or multiplier). The modifier would dynamically change based on game events. So for example in R&M, when the slam ring is triggered (or scoop), the modifier would jump and the total hold power would go up to deal with the impending force but only for a small time window. The modifier would have a fast decay rate to bring the total hold power down to the base. It might even be beneficial to have a negative modifier for mundane events to reduce temp build up even more; say when a ball is cradled for more than a couple seconds, or when orbits, ramps, locks, etc are detected.

I haven't studied the proc design or the API set, so I don't know if this is possible, or if it would all have to be implemented in software. If the latter, then I would worry about timing. Anyway, it would be a way to get max hold power with the least amount of power usage.

I'm at 6.7. Tried every combination of strength and hold settings. Adjusted the EOS. This has been an issue with my R&M from day one and Spooky has tried to help. In the end only the addition of vireland's fans reduced the flipper fade so the left ramp was consistent. But with the new code that's no longer enough. Since many others don't seem to have any issue, there must be something specific with my pin. Maybe a complete flipper rebuild? But right now I just need to cool down, me, not the coils.

Are you running with the stock bushings? Another variable to consider...

Yes, but I've shaved them down.

Well, as long as the bushings are absolutely level, then you should be fine. If the bushing isn't level, the flipper bat could be at a slight angle, which *could* create some mechanical binding that would weaken the flipper (and possibly generate more heat). That's the problem with having the community hack the bushings, precision is kind of important when it comes to flippers. As I've posted recently, my left flipper is binding ever so slightly, but doesn't really effect gameplay. You might want to move your right flipper bat and check carefully for any friction...sometimes it can be subtle.

Another thing you might invest in is this...it will tell you if the outlet the game is plugged into is on the weak side. Unlikely, but a good $10 investment when you own pinball machines...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CDJRLKI/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title

Thanks for the suggestions. I'd say my bushings are perfect (used a dental lathe). And the flipper fade / left ramp was a problem before I shaved down the bushings. Also checked the voltage at the PS and confirmed it's correct.

Yes, double-check the flipper clearance off the playfield. My R&M shipped with the flippers mounted a bit tight against the playfield and I had to adjust the the clamp poisiton slightly. You want the plunger to go into the coil with no binding whatsoever, it has to go straight in, any angle will cause friction and weaken the flipper. Note that it is possible to clamp the bat too low, which also results in an angle and friction.

Also, if you align the angle of the flippers to the inlane guides (a bit "droopier" than as shipped) it will make the left ramp easier, it will be closer to the power sweet-spot on the flipper. See if that helps.

<technical discussion of possible flipper-control software>

Yes, you can do all of that in software, and timing wouldn't be an issue at all. What you've described is also a workaround. The hold power can be set so it's just strong enough to hold the flipper up in most cases. Knockdown prevention reflips should be 100% reliably. The only tricky case is where another downwards force (eg. a second ball) hits the flipper before a reflip gets the flipper to reactivate the EOS. That exceedingly rare case is easily detectable in software, which could send a secondary reflip.

Your idea would more intelligently detect certain cases where a knockdown is more likely to happen and increase hold power to avoid an EOS event, but it's unnecessary.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Hey everyone - my ship opto gate (Board 3 Input J4-2 Blue) is stuck closed. This is the opto before the drop targets. Visually inspecting the optos, they appear to be positioned correctly (not obstructed by the metal rails). I reseated the cable on the opto board and still stuck closed. Any ideas or tips to fix?

Nevermind! I figured it out I must have pulled a wire of the right side opto when I removed the right ramp. All good now...

Does the flipper bat have 1-2mm of up-down movement?

Not doubting your skills - but I’ve just recently seen two dudes rebuild their flippers and they were too tight, created big coil heat and fade. Always worth a mention ...

rd

Just wanted to say that I started watching Rick and Morty for the first time because of this pin. Easily one of the best decisions I've made in a while.

Not sure the exact gap but I use a spacer tool and there's definitely some up/down play. But thanks for the suggestion.

Sure, unnecessary for control, but a potential strategy to lower power consumption which should result in reduced coil temps. Overly simplified, if the majority of gameplay requires say 40% hold power to mitigate reflips, but a couple specific conditions require 100% hold power it seems you could significantly lower the average versus trying to statically split the difference at 80%. I'm making up numbers of course, but it should be straightforward to log total hold "on" time to see how much this approach could save.

Certainly off topic and happy to move to a dedicated thread if so desired. I don't seem to have anything better to do but obsess in the thread until #563 shows up at my door...

So ... new code is better for flipper response but flipper fade is worse even with Tibetan Fans?

I've calmed down a bit now and Luke already responded to my email (on the weekend!). Going to try an entire new flipper mech. Since most others don't have this issue, maybe there's something going on with my current mech (binding or some burr in the joints)? It's worth a try, and I appreciate Spooky doing everything to make their customers good.

That has been my experience.

Getting my new game tomorrow! #508. Folks recommend NOT updating the code. I also have 3 fan kit to install.

Those “folks” would be crazy. Newer code is nothing but improvements.

The changes in the flipper handling are extremely minor. There’s no ‘extra heat’ being generated. The duty cycle for the hold force and pulses for flipping the flipper haven’t changed. There was one minor tweak in how the flipper recovers from a knockdown, but that doesn’t constantly happen, so it’s not doing much more than it did before overall.

Guess the 90 minutes of flipper test playtime yesterday improved my gameplay today...138,410,420

Unfortunately, the score could have been much better. After my insane ball 2, balls 3 and 4 (an EB) were pretty useless because the flippers were over 200F. The left flipper was almost 220F and started misbehaving at this insanely high temp. Note that the game was only on for 20-30 minutes, folks.

Eric, that's not what my measurements show. I've actually done measurements. Have you done any heat measurements?

When I turn back the setting to "Original", the temps go down by ~30F. Certainly not a huge difference, but saying there is no 'extra heat' being generated doesn't jive with the data I'm seeing. Sorry. Regardless, the temps in the photo below should concern Spooky engineers. Again, the game was played for 20-30 minutes, not hours.
IMG_3493 (resized).jpegIMG_3500 (resized).jpegIMG_3503 (resized).jpeg

I wrote the code, remember? I’m telling you that the control of the flip and the hold is the same. If you change it back to ‘original’ it’s the same as it’s been since the game shipped, if you use the new default, it’s a different pattern, but the same amount of electricity over all. But you have the option to use the original pattern if that works better for your game. The pulse to fire the flipper is the same as it has always been. There is no viable reason to cling to old code.

EDIT: Actually, since you have that really nice temperature readout - there’s one test I’d love for you to run, if you wouldn’t mind. Start with the game ‘cold’, start a game, leave the ball in the shooter, and tape down a flipper button for 30 minutes. What’s the temp do then, with no flipper action/mechanical friction?

Original flipper settings from the new code working flawlessly for #133 although it is on location so I couldn't perform extended tests as others have done in this thread. Worth noting I have streamed for more than 3 hours straight with no issues on the flippers or making the left ramp. Thanks for putting the original pattern back in!

With and without your suggestion, it's best to run the hold at what works for "the majority of gameplay" (your hypothetical 40%) or even weaker. With your suggestion, you'll increase the hold power at well-known times and maybe eliminate some cases of re-flips. Without your suggestion, you'll rely on re-flips in the rare times when they're needed. Occasional re-flips won't contribute much or at all to the overall heat profile. So, best to K-I-S-S.

Agreed - I've addressed the untrue accusations about the P-ROC (by others, not @RobF) with perhaps too-detailed descriptions of how everything works. I've discussed the code with Eric, and it sounds like the suggestions have helped significantly for most of you. Those of you still having issues likely need to adjust your hold strengths or tweak your mechanicals. If your game isn't enjoyable because of ongoing flipper issues that weren't addressed by the latest release, please contact Spooky tech support, which has always been great. If they need any more input from me, they'll ask me directly.

I'll duck out of this thread now. If you want to talk about control system features or how to implement various algorithms (for pinball/flippers or otherwise), I'm happy to discuss in the #pindev slack channel, where many pinball machine and software developers hang out and discuss everything about pinball dev. You can PM me for an invite.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Have wasted 3 hours trying to update this thing & keep getting update needed screen. Formated 2 USB thumbdrives 3 times. When you download file sends you to a program called Dropbox. File is in my download folder. Dragging it over to usb drive. Plug it into game after 5 seconds says update complete power cycle. So frustrating.

Yesterday's 90 minutes test was done with the "Default" flipper hold pulse pattern.

This morning, I switched to "Original" and measured the temps were ~30F cooler than yesterday.

This afternoon, when I played my "big game", I switched it back to "Default" and measured the temps over 200F.

I will perform whatever tests you'd like...I'm here for the sole purpose of making this game better. That's why I've invested considerable time testing your Beta and then doing all the temperature instrumentation and measurement (with vireland's nice temp probes). I'm not here to bust your balls. I'm here to help you. I'm retired and have no problem helping you/Spooky/whomever.

As for your snarky comment about "I wrote the code, remember?". Of course I know this! Writing code and testing/measuring the implications of a code change are 2 totally different activities. If you didn't measure the heat impact, it is incorrect to say there is no heat impact. Saying you don't think the code changes would result in hotter coils is a different story. Sounds like you didn't actually measure the heat impact. I did and can continue to.

Do you recall that I wrote mission critical software for 25 years? (for both small and large companies). Do you know how many times I f-ed up something because I didn't fully understand the implications of my change(s)? Plenty. Systems are complex...including pinball systems. If you are using C/C++ for development, chances are you are using GCC or Clang/LLVM, projects I did pioneering work on. Not tooting my horn, just want you to know that I fully understand software development/testing/productization. I'm on your side and willing to do whatever it takes to help...all free of charge.

Please...let's keep this professional and respectful!

I'm not sure I would say there is no extra heat. This code while it works MUCH better than previous, my coils are pretty hot to the touch even with the fans running, which they never were before. Maybe I'm trapping more, hard to say for certain. I cannot say I've experienced anything that feels like flipper fade though. I'm at 7.0 on default powers and I have no issues making either ramp after an hour of play.

I strictly mean “no extra” as compared to before. There’s a minuscule difference in the amount of electricity being sent to the coils over time. They get hot; they’ve always gotten hot. That’s NOT a reason to stay on the old code.

Everyone should be using the new code so the heat problem I'm seeing is felt by more people. If the heat problem ISN"T felt by anyone else, then there is something wrong with my specific machine/flippers. My EOS is dialed in and I'm running on lowered bushings. I've adjusted flippers for the past 10-20 years, so I'm not new at that either.

One thing confuses me. You have Bowen Kerins on staff who can knock out my score of 138M without sweating. Has Bowen tried the new code? Seems like giving the code to someone who can play for 20-30 minutes straight (who works on R&M) is the way to go. Preferably with temp probes installed like I have.

Your assertion that "they've always gotten hot" doesn't help. Details matter. The difference between 170F, 200F, & 217 matters...especially for someone like me that has no fans installed. The temp details matter to vireland and his fan clients as well. His 5.5 CFM fans might not handle 217F like I measured with my left flipper earlier today! If that's true, then people will need to get more powerful fans to truly deal with the added heat/fade.

Again, the ONLY reason I'm interested in this is you asked me to test the Beta. My qualitative feedback was the knockdown problems were solved but the flipper fade was noticeably worse. Now that I have temp probes, the data/measurements I'm seeing jives with my qualitative feedback. From my perspective, the "Original" flipper code was on the hairy edge (temp wise) and the new code pushed it over the edge. That's what I'm experiencing/measuring.

I will do the measurement you asked for tomorrow morning. If you think of any new measurement you'd like me to run, feel free to PM me.

It's nice to have that data, I've not had any issues with fade yet, but that conversation's probably best in an email.

Just had my best game ever at 37m, I love this machine.

Man my flipper rubbers are ripping already. Is this wear due to the raised bats and the way the ball hits them? I wouldn't say I've played it any more than any of my other games.

Couldn't agree more (and congrats on having your best game I PM'd Eric my cell because I'm really not interested in airing all this on Pinside, but at the moment it's all I got (not a fan of Pinside PM's for high bandwidth discussions). If I had Eric's email, all of this would have gone directly to him. I have Scott's email, but not Eric's.

Just order some Titans to have on hand. Consumables are consumable.

Got a question: where do the tibetan fans plug into the Spooky boards for +12vdc?

I haven't had much time at all this week to play/test other than a couple games on the beta code, which seemed fine. Gonna fire it up for a while tonight and see how things go. If I notice fade I do have some computer fans here to try, but was wondering where the power connector was.

I do think certain playstyles can adversely affect the temps, which may explain some variation between games. Things like lots of tap-tap-taps to deaden balls rolling up the flipper, flipper holds plus repeated cradle-separation re-flips til just enough oomph to succeed, holding while paging thu instant info, getting into MB frequently (not too hard to do on this game), etc.. may have something to do with it. A player just flipping on the fly may not generate the same temps.

My two cents on flippergate is-
Had no notable issues.
The best are looking at improving it and doing tests. It can only be a win in the end and make the next game better.

Biggest one.... they did not cancel or bang the price up on our game. They generously gave us all a topper.

Let’s get back to the game and seeing the mods.

My pin runs great on the new code, the flipper responsiveness and control have noticeable improvements.

I've played several games back to back on the new code the last couple of nights and I agree, the current flipper performance is the best I've felt on R&M. I've been digging it.

Just installed the new software to see what all the flipper talk is about but have a new issue.

Immediately after starting the first game (before launching the ball even) and every game after even after a reboot I'm getting meeseeks. I get one then the second and third and after the meeseeks mode is done it starts again and I'm getting this on every ball.

Any suggestions to resolve?

Check the meeseeks target/switch? Maybe it's stuck. May not be related to the code.

I did inspect the target and can see the gap. I thought it could have been stuck.