I just unboxed and setup #516. So far, the flipper drop is pretty noticeable. I can’t catch a ball fired from the scoop and in a multiball scenario the right flipper is really flaky if it has more than one ball on it.

The upper flipper fails to fire a lot of the time. I am not yet sure why, but it is pretty inconsistent.

The flipper power seems good as I can make both ramps. In fact, on some shots on the right ramp the ball will launch off because the power is so high!

I put the flipper hold power on high, but that didn’t seem to make any difference.

I’ll dig into the EOS adjustments and tweaks ASAP.

In 40 years of pinball, I have never seen flippers knock down until I bought Houdini, a P-roc game.

Now it seems that R&M, a P-ROC game has the same issues.

I agree that its most likely a code issue since its mostly sorted on Houdini after years of waiting, but its still there.

So, is it coincendence? I think not...(yes, Ive been drinking kirkland scotch...)

The wife picked some up on her last Costco run. It’s actually pretty good stuff.

mess with your flipper button leafs to make sure they're getting good contact. Make sure your lower flippers engages first. I ended up swapping the crappy plastic leaf for a longer copper one for that consistent feel. Let me know if you need any more help because I feel like I've fine tuned my flippers to the max. No zip ties, No no fear spacers, just good ol solid metal leafs should only be near flipper buttons.
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Where did you buy that from?

I done the same with mine in the end. Conventional BW switch leaf parts.

That reminds me, I need to buy the ramp cover for that. Was playing on the weekend and the Ball was flying off that ramp at least once per game. Still don’t understand why that cover isn’t installed from the factory on new builds - has been an identified issue for months.

Man, the differences in how these games play is really striking. I don't believe I've ever had a ball fly off that ramp! Is it flipper power? Ramp flap sticking up? Ramp rivet in ball path? I realize every game is unique, but the dynamic range complicates life for us Morty's (not to mention Spooky

I bought that before I had my game.. played maybe 2-3 games, turned up my flipper power and went "yep, needs that cover"

It seems to just be a symptom of how much extra power different games are running, combined with variability in how even or smooth the ball path is. If a game is not as smooth as another, then it's natural to just jack the power up to more to make up for the greater snags or speed losses the ball is experiencing. But that just leads to bouncing and air.

My game running 27 on the flippers and flies up ramps smoothly with plenty to spare, and never had a ball fly from a ramp yet. I've been up to 32 though and still not had any ramp flyaways. But 32 is way too overpowered on the machine I have here. I went to 37 and had a ramp fly-off, but the ball had so much energy I only played one ball because it was so much velocity overkill it was going to obviously be damaging. Game definitely isn't in need of a cover there at all, not in my case anyway. Not to say it wouldn't be a reasonable idea perhaps, but the ramp flyoffs seem to be a symptom of some ball path inconsistency. As in perhaps not really normal.

My first guess is ramp heights/flaps. Mine weren't too good before I fitted the protector. Pretty bouncy. Only played a couple dozen games before applying the protector. The extra 0.7mm was near perfect to correct the flap preload.

What kind of shape are your ramp flaps there mate? ... what sort of angle or curve do they meet the playfield? ... are they "springboardy" at all, or more like firm?

Good point...no doubt coil settings have an impact. My lower left is set to 35 and my lower right is set to 45. If the game gets over 30 minutes of continuous play, the left ramp gets harder to make (which is why I have it set to 45). To be honest, I don't feel a big difference between 35 and 45, so maybe the high setting is counter productive (since it may generate more heat?). Don't know. Wouldn't it be cool to have a Morty visible heat sensor on those flippers?

I've had a few balls air out of the right ramp, so I installed a ramp cover over the weekend. I also downloaded the new code and promptly set a new grand champ score of 58 million plus in the very next game (14 million over my previous best). My R&M is playing as good or better than it ever has been, so it seems like I/we are making good progress with tweaks, code, and such.

Wow I couldn't imagine having flipper powers set that high.

And I monitor my AC voltage, which is always in spec. R&M is the only game plugged into this electrical outlet/zone.

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Anything over 40 is definitely wasteful 100% of the time, and over 35 is wasteful most of the time (The exception being if you flip into an oncoming ball that is pushing down hard as you go up). I can't lower the max now though without forcing a settings reset. I put those wide ranges in early on when testing and didn't think to clamp down on them. What I could do though is just nerf it on the software side so anything over 40 is still just actually 40.

I received my game a while ago and I just wanted to share my experiences with my flippers. First off, I am no newbee when it comes to pinball. I have been around since the early RGP days and rebuilt a ton of games, so I know what I am talking about.

When I first started playing I noticed the flippers were sitting very high on the playfield and they were also getting pretty hot and weakening over time. What I found was that the flippers were not sitting down against the bushings, but floating above. These flippers were not adjusted properly. This was causing friction between the plunger and the coil sleeve since that is what was causing the flipper bat to float. I adjusted this with the proper adjustment tool. I also replaced the return springs with the williams ones from a wpc machine. It was night and day, I had to turn the flip power down to 25, but I still think that is too powerful. I think my hold settings are on mid setting too and it seems to be fine for me. Well, that is where I am at with the flippers. This seemed to help a lot.

Update on setting up #519 over the weekend. Big shout out to my bud zaphX who came over to help haul it up to my game room with his Escalara (game changer), setup, and tweak! Saved me hours of figuring out the small stuff.

Applause and Gratitude: Let me start off with a standing applause to the Spooky crew! The game worked right out of the box! No cable issues, no shipping problems, no light issues, no cabinet issues, etc... The butter cabinet and playfield are truly beautiful! Game play, sounds, light show and theme integration is amazing. My family can't stop playing it.

Rattle: It's true what everyone has been saying. The sound and bass is so awesomely powerful (best I've ever heard) that the glass rattling was horrific! zaphX and I completely eliminated all glass/cabinet rattle (~99.9%) with 4 zip line ties wedged in between the plastic glass track and cabinet [2 placed along upper glass track (left/right side) and 2 along lower glass track (left/right side)], added sub-woofer ring in bottom of cabinet, and using a spare felt leg pad that we cut up - we added two strips that sit on top of the glass and slide in under the monitor in the plastic track (they fall out every time I take glass off but no biggie). We realized there is so much air being vibrated in the cabinet, all these tweaks were necessary as we eliminated sources of rattle step-by-step. Once this was completed, the sound experience was 1000% far more appreciated!

Noise: Power supply fan is loud when game sitting idle. So much my wife complained. Hardly noticeable during game play. I have PinMonk Pinmonk's silent fan mod (gift from @zaphx) but haven't installed yet. The motor on topper does seem loud too but nothing that takes away from the game since it only activates when Portal is ready (deactivated it in attract mode). Besides, the motor sound is a good reminder the portal shot is ready.

Code/Play: Updated code to 2021.03.02 build. Only had one game lock up during Whirly Dirly after an entire weekend of playing. Quick reboot fixed and haven't seen it again. Everything else seems fine. Dimensions are so much fun and humorous. Call outs make me giddy. Adventure modes are to love and hold tightly. Crave more!

Flippers: Was experiencing flipper drop on bottom right flipper mainly after powerful scoop eject. Set the right top and bottom flipper power to high. They felt weak. Flipper drop seems far less now. Haven't played with any other flipper adjustments. Top right flipper power still feels slightly off. I don't believe the lower bushings were installed. Also have Pinmonk's flipper fans but haven't tackled installing those yet either.

Loops/Ramps: Right now, seems like Garage shot can be made about 30% of the time (off top right flipper) from everyone who's played it. Seems like it gets rejected more often than not bouncing back off metal guide. Will continue to look into tweaking. Ramps seem to be makable 80-90% of time. Game feels less flowy compared to other games I've played which I contribute to angles of the shots may possibly be more challenging (on top of combination of PF level, flipper strength, plus personal skills of playing better).

Level: Set at 6.7. Planning to lower to 6.5 after reading recommendations from Spooky. May improve flow. Not experiencing any air balls so far.

Minor Notes: Lifting playfield see glue strings hanging everywhere. Nothing to worry about. Have only had one minor issue where the ribbon cable for the trough timer (LED between flippers) keeps slipping off connector over time due to gravity and vibration. Noticed when the LED numbers started looking garbled as they counted down. I've pushed it up firmly where it feels like it won't budge but the problem keeps reoccurring. Luckily it's the ribbon cable/connector closest to coin door. A quick coin door open and pushing connector back up fixes timer readout. Will figure a non-glue way to keep it tight/connected in place.

Overall, extremely positive experience and nothing but high praise for Spooky on R&M. Game is not 100% dialed-in yet but hella fun straight out of the box!

Looking forward to future code updates and content add-ins! I truly am appreciating the pin you have created!

Keep up the great job Spooky!

Just got an email from Spooky about build options for #660 if anyone is keeping track.

I also just got the email for #659.

whats usually the turn around time for receiving a game once you get this?

Thanks

If I remember correctly, after you reply with your selected build options it's about two weeks until email asking for payment. Then another two weeks or so for delivery so about a month total I believe.

Damn straight I'm keeping track...I'm #670! This is exciting!

Build sheet for #665 just hit my inbox as well, for those keeping score.

Awesome!

Sounds like they are going to make their 18 month goal.

Very happy to say I tested some beta flipper code epthegeek made available last night, and the differences were immediately noticeable.

Trying to trap a ball on the left, had the slam ring fire it right into the upheld flipper and it didn't budge. Scoop shots rarely moved the right flipper, and when a particularly strong eject did push the tip down a bit, it immediately recovered. Everything feels a bit more snappy.

I think they're still working out an issue or two, but very promising so far! Note that testing was with all default settings.

Can anyone try this beta code ?
I would be interested to try it. thanks

For those who haven't seen these yet and might be interested, garretswinning makes custom light up drink holders and made a Vat of Acid version for R&M. They take a little while to get, but get on his list and you will get one eventually...

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/tmnt-mutagen-cup-holder/page/3#post-6174634

The axel that squeeks...

This sounds like great news!

Made a Simple and cheap Mod by extending one of my own protectors to accommodate a funky mystery mini noob noob.
Apology’s if this has already been done.

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Snappy, you say?

The thing I love the most about Sterns are the flippers, hands down. They snap so nicely. Is it possible that we might see similar results with R&M flippers in the next code update?

Flaps look fine.

Haven't adjusted flipper strength from default because from a trap, it comfortably makes that ramp shot and the RHS loop without being too fast. Dont want it to struggle up that RHS ramp. It's enough to have one Kilamanjaro ramp on the game.

TBH, it only happens with shots made "on the fly" (from the portal eject) - on my game the ball is travelling pretty quickly from the portal eject.

Still, I should be able to hit shots on the fly without worrying if the ball is going to launch off the ramp. Nailing a shot on the fly is one of pinball's great rushes.

Im not sure why the controversey over this - almost every Stern game ive owned has perspex ramp covers installed from the factory for this exact reason.

He's very cool. Looks like it was meant to be there.

That looks really great!

I don't believe so...highly unlikely the flipper setup on R&M will ever have a Stern flipper feel. The mechs/electronics are wildly different. To be honest, I just want the flippers to work reliably/snappy for 60-90 minutes of continuous usage. I realize the bar for operators is different.

I've been playing with the Beta for a couple days now. The lower flipper knock-down & stuck-up issues have been improved dramatically. I haven't seen one knock-down/stuck-up lower flipper! Nice job @epthegeek!

I still had some very wonky upper flipper behavior (stuck-up, no-fire) that happened after 20 minutes of continuous play and disappeared as fast as it appeared. Since the upper flipper doesn't have an EOS switch and is excluded from the changes Eric is focused on, this behavior likely has nothing to do with the Beta per se. There is some chance there is something to tweak mechanically, however the upper flipper returned to normal without any mechanical changes.

So...at this point, my biggest concern is after 20-30 minutes of continuous play, my flippers totally lose their snap. The left ramp becomes almost impossible to hit. If the implementation changes that fix the knock-down/stuck-up problems result in much hotter coils, then it's a tough pill to swallow. Note that I've played several hundred games prior to these changes and routinely play for 20-30 minutes at a time without much flipper degradation.

To help characterize what I'm feeling after 20 minutes, PinMonk is going to help me rig my 3 flippers with heat sensors. I will probe the flippers every 5 minutes so I can give Eric/Spooky the data that hopefully corresponds to what I'm seeing/feeling.

A more effective approach is to understand the heat requirements for the P-ROC implementation tweaks. Even if my heat measurements help explain why my flippers are fading after 20-30 minutes, it doesn't help suggest a more efficient, cooler running implementation. @gstellenberg?

That feeling when you garage shot a new dimension into adventure+multiball

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Looks great! I have the same figure but just stuck him on the existing plastic. Yours looks much better!

#670...got my build sheet today!

Can someone tell me how Meeseeks Mania scoring works?

All I know is that if I have a good multiball with mania, big scores can happen, but I have no idea how to make them even bigger.

It's likely unrelated to the changes that re-engage the flipper when the EOS opens. It's more likely fatigue due to stronger hold PWM to be more resistant to knockdowns. Eric can speak better to that, or perhaps you could try lower hold strength settings and rely more on the EOS re-flips.

The "P-ROC implementation tweaks" are just dealing with re-flips and state control relative to the EOS. They have nothing to do with the single-wound coil heat profiles due to various PWM frequencies. So no matter what your measurements are, they won't suggest doing something different relative to the EOS. They could just impact how strongly the coils are pulsed for hold strength, which is purely a software choice.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

That’s what I’d be trying.

99% of the time, the flippers don’t need to be held up “hard” with high power. (You're just creating extra heat, especially if you’re just trapping the ball)

If the EOS is adjusted properly, if the flipper is hit down, the bat should drop 1-2mm, open the EOS and the coil will refire again, thus holding it up.

I would definitely give this a go.

rd

I’d agree... isn’t this behavior necessary to be able to do drop catches and live catches?

Thanks, Gerry. Really appreciate your perspective!

I found this interesting link that helped me understand some of the high level tradeoffs (https://pinballmakers.com/wiki/index.php?title=Controlling_Flippers).

Also found an interesting discussion on the heat implications of single wound coils from 2 years ago with epthegeek (below). Since R&M uses WMS flippers (which had dual wound coils), it's just odd that R&M doesn't have dual wound coils considering the heat being generated. If the software is able to implement some clever heuristics to work around the absence of a hold winding, then great. I don't have enough experience with this to know if that's possible. Stern clearly makes it work (with single wound coils), but they also have custom controller boards with magic that might help.

One question: Do most of your P-ROC clients use dual-wound coils?

Alright, so I have about 5 hours played on our R&M now, lol. It was a collaborative purchase that ended up at the right house so it could be played openly and freely (cough no kids, cough). - By the way, I think we should crowd fund a "kids mode" where justin records random words for the swears. I think they could put blur over the blood nd guts too right? LOL....I dunno. I just think it would be funny to hear him say something instead of getting bleeped. I would pay $100 for this to happen. Just a thought. Would be nice to be able to play the game with the kids around and have it be a funny experience still for all of us.

Any ways, onto my mini review.

The first couple games I was bricking everything. I think I am just super rusty and used to playing my own games and Shadow in particular has a similar loop shot that is not similar at all really. Once I got used to the shots, I could then focus on my strategy. Feeling the flow for the table finally, I was able to stack a multiball and an adventure which is very satisfying. I had a ton of meeseeks going as well. Ended up getting meeseeks champ, and the high score on the game so far (31m).

I feel like this game has a lot of depth that I am going to have a lot of fun cracking open. With 10 adventures to fill, I have only seen around 5 or 6 I think.

Game volume has gotta be 7 to feel right. The boomy booms feel nice and they arent screaming at you obnoxiously.

I need to adjust the upper flipper switch gap. Getting the upper flipper activated is rough on my wrist atm. The button has to be all the way in. I have started staging my shots to make it more consistent, but I am starting to hurt a bit while playing the longer balls.

Game feels great overall. I have played spooky games in public arcades and in private collections, and I have always had a good time. TNA, Alice, and now R&M some of my favorite games out there. I said I would sell my entire collection to get R&M if it was ever made, and luckily I didnt have to.

Cant wait to get some more time on the game. I have volunteered to let my sis's dog out now so I can get some games in on the regular. LOL!

Glad my writings are helpful, even if more out there than here.

I don't understand your conclusion there. Yes, keeping on the hold winding in a dual wound coil won't generally generate as much heat quickly turning on/off the only winding in a single wound coil to hold the plunger in. It can depending on the impedance of the coil and drive parameters, but that's a much deeper conversation. The main reason single wound coils are generally selected over dual wound is cost. The coils are less expensive (less copper, one less lug, less labor), and they needs only one drive circuit rather than two. That cost savings doesn't imply the solution is worse. It just comes requires more commands for EOS support and PWM hold parameters tuned to the needs of the machine (based on the coil impedance, air flow, plunger and coil stop material, etc).

You would generally have success grabbing a dual-wound coil designed for 70v pinball games, putting it into a 48v pinball game, and using the same drive parameters games have been using for decades. With single wound, it's an entirely different story at 70v vs 48v. Using the same single wound coil at 70v would need a lower duty cycle PWM than at 48v to hold the plunger in. Run the 70v duty cycle on a 48v system, and you'll get knockdowns more often. Those knockdowns will be very slight if EOS reflips are implemented to respond quickly, but they'll still be there. So... it takes tuning.

I find it really interesting that of all of the differences between the machines, and despite my explanations, some of you keep going back to "controller board" differences. The Stern controller board isn't magical. It doesn't do anything fancy. It's a microcontroller that responds to switch events and issues specific drive requests (as programmed by the code) to the drive circuits.. The P-ROC controller board isn't magical either. It also doesn't do anything fancy. It's an FPGA-based controller that responds to switch events and issues (as programmed by the code) to the drive circuits. Both are just tools. Both can do the same thing. I explained a couple of the tradeoffs of microcontroller vs FPGA in a previous post, but they're immaterial to this discussion. The primary difference with Stern is that they've had (and required) decades to tune their systems. Remember Stern's Lord of the Rings flippers?
Their single wound coils would heat up quickly, making the ramps unhittable after 10-20 minutes. I think Pinball Life even made stronger coils that wouldn't suffer as much from the heat build-up. I'm glad to hear they've since tuned their drive parameters and improved their performance. It's not magic, it's just a lot of engineering.

The P-ROC works with dual wound and single wound without prejudice. Many are using P-ROCs with Stern Whitestar and SAM machines without issue (single wound). Same for WPC machines (dual wound). Some new MFGs are using dual wound and some are using single wound. Again, dual wound is easier to get right. Single wound results in less BOM cost but likely requires more engineering to get the drive parameters perfected.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Here's the thing; I'm not an engineer. Electrical or otherwise. I'm just a guy writing game code and doing my best. I didn't make the coil decision, I don't know what the contributing factors were to that decision. But it should be able to be made to do the job just fine.

I thought I had things pretty well balanced for hold power vs heat, but I don't have any scientific ways to measure such things, I was just tweaking based on what seemed better. Complaints about knockdown still came in randomly, so Charlie wanted to re-evaluate and did his best to get solid measurements on things, so I made some changes. They tested well, but in general use we've got random people having problems, some worse than before.

The only material difference in flipper control between the January and March builds was changing the patterning of the hold duty cycle from 1ms on/Xms off to 2ms on/2Xms off - its the same duty cycle overall, just applied differently. Up to and including the March release, I was recovering knockdown with a software controlled (which means JUST SLIGHTLY slower to react) reaction that would more aggressively duty cycle the flipper to try to recover, but not completely re-fire. In my testing, that worked fine, and didn't tend to 'fling' the ball away like a full power hit. I was also paranoid about heat, so trying to use the coil as little as possible. I've since been educated by people smarter than me that there are better ways to do the knockdown reactive stuff; and that's the flipper beta we're testing currently. The duty cycle bits on the hold are still the same, and you have the option to use either the original, or the doubled pattern now.

I think a decent number of RM owners are jacking up the flipper power erroneously. The default 30 should be able to get a clean shot up the left ramp just fine - emphasis on CLEAN SHOT. If it's not, maybe you like you game pitched too high, or maybe you have other specific to your setup issues. But if you need to adjust the power, you should do so in one MS increments (not 5 or 10) and test again. By making the flip pulses longer to get more power out if it, you're just making the heat problem appear quicker.

There is no magic in engineering. Just math and frustration.

A lot of us don't know what we're "supposed" to be doing. There's not a manual or a place to go for suggestions about these things except Pinside, which requires sifting through a lot of (sometimes contradictory) information that's not official. If the options are there to mess with stuff, we just mess with it without knowing why a lot of times.

Any chance Spooky might come out with a more official adjustments page for R & M? I know there's is an unofficial one, but it would definitely be helpful in explaining the nuances of things like the flipper hold directly from the source.

Couldn't agree more (no magic in engineering), and I'm trying to be helpful (not critical). I'm putting my time/effort where my mouth is (by helping test the Beta and provide feedback which you encouraged in a private message). I can definitely take my feedback private! (or stop providing it entirely).

All I'm doing is reporting what I'm seeing. I've never been this involved in trying to get a game to play the way I expect...partly because all the other games I've owned have had stronger, more consistent flipper feel and partly because I love this game more than all the games that came before it My first Spooky pin.

I'm a retired software engineer myself and have significant background in compiler construction, language design/implementation and operating system development. I was responsible for all of Apple's software development tools for many years. Trust me, I sympathize with the limits imposed by hardware and how software can be complicated as a result. I get it! I lived it for 25 years.

With PinMonk help, I will get you folks data on the heat being generated by my game. If, at the end of the day, I need to install PinMonk fans to get my game to play for 30-60 minutes without degrading, then that's what I guess I will have will do! I'd prefer not installing the fans and not bumping into heat issues after only 30-60 minutes, but that ball is in Spooky's court.

I haven't messed with any power settings, and still have issues. I will say---I do not seem to have heat/fade issues..but I rarely play a game more than an hour.

I know Stern is being used as the benchmark here, and maybe rightly so. They are not having any knockdown issues that I'm aware of. But I've recently been getting into newer Stern games, and I'm in more than one game club where flipper fade, heat issues, and vireland's fans are regular topics. So why Spooky is still figuring out how to perfect the flippers using the P-ROC system, even Stern's "perfect" flipper system is having significant flipper fade issues. Just sayin.