(Topic ID: 257850)

Official Rick and Morty Club - You are not like other carbon based life forms.

By TheNoTrashCougar

1 year ago


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#11501 8 months ago

metallik could be your machine. I've never experienced this 'knock down' on either my houdini or R&M machines

#11502 8 months ago

It's definitely not 'the machine'. Plenty of people have issues with knockdown and stuck flippers on R&M. I just had a knockdown tonight, but after the EoS adjustments, they are rare...but being a broken record, the stuck flippers are annoying AF as well and they happen often...mysteriously, they seem to do it in Scary Terry mode more than other times. This is the only machine I've owned or played that I've seen this issue on.

The better question would be what is different about your machine that makes it not have those issues.

#11503 8 months ago

Yeah, I adjusted the EOSs to trigger as soon as the flipper started to drop, but then had the stuck flipper problem a fair bit and had to back off the EOS. It sounds like they may have sorted that out and we can soon retighten the EOS adjustments

#11504 8 months ago

After a few plays on my recent build (#504), had knock down, then I adjusted my EOS a little closer and had stuck flipper, then I opened the EOS a little more, and stuck flipper went away and some knock down came back. Then I set hold power to "high", and that helped more than anything. Still get a little bit of knock down from a hard scoop fire to the right flipper. December code.

#11505 8 months ago

Haven't had issues with the flippers before (and have had the machine a long time #133) but I just updated and am getting knockdowns from both the pop bumper and scoop. I would like to go back to the old code for the time being, anyone have a download link for it?

#11506 8 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

On other platforms, my goal is to adjust the EOS at the very end of stroke (for maximum strength). On JJP games, this works great. Is this the same on P-ROC/P3-ROC?

That sounds like the right approach for any machine... maximize flip strength throughout the stroke (if software is using EOS to turn off flip power rather than a timed pulse) and have any knockdown-protecting re-flips activate as soon as possible.

Quoted from snaroff:

One question: The upper flipper on R&M doesn't have an EOS switch and I occasionally get knockdowns on the upper flipper (though not nearly as bad as the lower flippers that deal with the pop bumper and scoop VUK). Does this mean I will need to live with the knockdowns on the upper flipper?

Not necessarily, but the implementation trade-off is heat. The hold PWM can be increased to hold the coil stronger (I assume that's what the hold strength settings are doing for the lower flippers). EOS-based re-flips don't require super strong holding power. Since the flipper doesn't have an EOS, I'd guess it originally had a dual wound coil, and that would hold better without increased PWM (not perfectly, but better). If it was originally wired that way and if the circuit was still available in the game, switching to a dual-wound coil might be a useful mod.

- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

#11507 8 months ago

Since we were on the topic this morning, a Megaseed Combo Bonus would be awesome.
Any time you jump to a dimension and clear the field of Megaseeds with an uninterrupted combo, I feel like you should get some sort of pat on the back (callout) or a Bonus (+1 Seed).

#11508 8 months ago
Quoted from guitarded:

Since we were on the topic this morning, a Megaseed Combo Bonus would be awesome.
Any time you jump to a dimension and clear the field of Megaseeds with an uninterrupted combo, I feel like you should get some sort of pat on the back (callout) or a Bonus (+1 Seed).

Any bonus for combos will get an automatic thumbs up from me. My next thought was that the reward should be massive as I’m pretty sure I’ve never done it. Actually I’m quite confident that I’ve never even come close haha. Love the idea though.

#11509 8 months ago
Quoted from gstellenberg:

Not necessarily, but the implementation trade-off is heat. The hold PWM can be increased to hold the coil stronger (I assume that's what the hold strength settings are doing for the lower flippers). EOS-based re-flips don't require super strong holding power. Since the flipper doesn't have an EOS, I'd guess it originally had a dual wound coil, and that would hold better without increased PWM (not perfectly, but better). If it was originally wired that way and if the circuit was still available in the game, switching to a dual-wound coil might be a useful mod.
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com

Well, whatever magic Stern has conjured up for SPIKE should be looked at, then. You can hold them for a LONG time and the temps only increase by a degree or two without dual wound coils OR knockdowns. Try that on Spooky, AP, or JJP and you get coil temps up to 249F in testing I've done myself and with Karl Deangelo, who is ideal for testing this because he is a trap player who can trap for 20 minutes or more at a stretch.

I'm assuming their duty cycle with SPIKE is different somehow, but it's new to SPIKE and much different than any other manufacturer at the moment. Try that on SAM or Whitestar Sterns and you'd have huge coil heat and maybe a blown transistor before long.

#11510 8 months ago
Quoted from metallik:

In my experience, PROC flippers get knocked down easily. Houdini and now R&M. If there is a fix, I am glad to hear and eagerly await it

Yep...

#11511 8 months ago
Quoted from metallik:

Yeah, I adjusted the EOSs to trigger as soon as the flipper started to drop, but then had the stuck flipper problem a fair bit and had to back off the EOS. It sounds like they may have sorted that out and we can soon retighten the EOS adjustments

Quoted from Rum-Z:

After a few plays on my recent build (#504), had knock down, then I adjusted my EOS a little closer and had stuck flipper, then I opened the EOS a little more, and stuck flipper went away and some knock down came back. Then I set hold power to "high", and that helped more than anything. Still get a little bit of knock down from a hard scoop fire to the right flipper. December code.

These posts perfectly characterize the persnickety EOS adjustment that contributes to my flipper frustration (with knockdowns and stuck-ups).

Quoted from Nikalou:

Haven't had issues with the flippers before (and have had the machine a long time #133) but I just updated and am getting knockdowns from both the pop bumper and scoop. I would like to go back to the old code for the time being, anyone have a download link for it?

Quoted from epthegeek:

There's a public update available. Nothing exciting, just trying to fix some things.
You can grab it at https://soldmy.org/pin/rm/ for now, I'm sure spooky will update the game support page soon.
Build 2021.03.02:
- Changed: A flipper tweak suggested by Gerry Stellenberg to prevent unintended flipper hold.
- Changed: Flipper hold control adjusted based on testing data from Charlie.

gstellenberg Unfortunately, the latest flipper tweak appears to be a regression. Whatever small amount of code PROC seems to "need" to provide flawless flips is eluding us. Hope you/Eric/Charlie/etc. can figure this out!

#11512 8 months ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

As for the multiball bug, that may be related to the new code for clearing a ball in the jam opto after a ball is already in play. I hadn’t run into an issue, and none of the beta testers reported anything, so if someone has directions on how to reliably recreate it that would help a lot. Meanwhile I’ll just have to try things.

Hey Eric, I re-downloaded/installed the latest bits from the Spooky website and can't reproduce the multi-ball bug. Could be a flakey download/install? One note: my trough eject isn't the default value. If somehow the your related code change was dependent on the default value, that could explain it (though I've tested both values and can't get it to fail now). Geez I'll keep running on the latest code since the game is now functional...

IMG_3432 (resized).jpeg
#11513 8 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Hey Eric, I re-downloaded/installed the latest bits from the Spooky website and can't reproduce the multi-ball bug. Could be a flakey download/install? One note: my trough eject isn't the default value. If somehow the your related code change was dependent on the default value, that could explain it (though I've tested both values and can't get it to fail now). Geez I'll keep running on the latest code since the game is now functional...
[quoted image]

When R&M updates, all the code is replaced - and it starts in an encrypted package that wouldn't unpack if it was damaged/incomplete - so, no - it's not likely a flaky download or install. I think that issue is just very specific timing, but since I haven't managed to make it happen yet, I'm not sure. I did make some changes to try to make the timing more reliable in case that was it.

#11514 8 months ago

Where can you find the 1/5/21 code update if you wanted to go back to it?

#11515 8 months ago
Quoted from gac:

Where can you find the 1/5/21 code update if you wanted to go back to it?

My 1/5/21 update was still in my "Downloads" folder (on a Mac). Unless you go out of your way to delete it, I would imagine it might still be on your computer.

#11516 8 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

My 1/5/21 update was still in my "Downloads" folder (on a Mac). Unless you go out of your way to delete it, I would imagine it might still be on your computer.

For the win! Thanks snaroff.

30
#11517 8 months ago
Quoted from gstellenberg:

I'm upset about the comments saying that knockdowns are "part of the P-ROC system"

As you should be.

I literally spent a week with a force gauge and temperature gun comparing mountains of settings Eric and I threw at our system and compared it across the board to EVERY other manufacturer's flipper coils under identical conditions.

I locked coils on for 30 minutes at a time, chimp flipped them until my arms fell off, and did combinations of both... for hours on end. Documented every bit of data before during and after stressing everything out. Even measured temps at both ends of the coil because it turns out 1 end gets hotter than the other. Things you learn.

None of the following info is meant as a slight towards anyone... They all play perfectly fine in my opinion. All game makers certainly have different "feels" to our flippers for sure.

To be blunt... the heat in our RaM coils was comparable to Stern (within 5 degrees, we use basically the same coil in RaM is my point). Cooler than other makers by anywhere from 5 to even 20 degrees under normal play. At full stress levels, basically the same results. Cooler than all but 1, and minimal differences there.

The hold power at the hottest points of testing were 100% on par with everyone else. Better than all but 1, and within 5 to 8 newtons of break force to the best.

The EOS adjustment matters a bunch. And there are exactly zero ways to prevent a knock down off the pop bumper that is 3" away. An absolute rocket shot in the ship loop that comes straight at a flipper will more times than not do the same. If a scoop kick out takes down a flipper, then you need to adjust your EOS. We completely fixed it on our test games quickly on this code.

In all instances, I was able to smoke the left ramp no matter what in a game set at 6.5 degrees. Was there a little less stank on the ball when the flipper was at its hottest after an hour of playing like a caffinated orangutan? Yep... just a little. I suspect this is the case in most games, but most games don't have a left ramp that requires you to climb alpe du'Huez like Rick and Morty. (I bet the 3 cyclists in here got that joke).

We will keep working on this regardless.

#11518 8 months ago
Quoted from SpookyCharlie:

We will keep working on this regardless.

This is why I will always support SPOOKY.
Thank you for the post and reassurance on this matter.

#11519 8 months ago

SpookyCharlie

Can you post clear photos of how your EoS are adjusted? And is 6.5 the suggested level? I thought it was 6.9-7?j
Also, what specific power settings are you using?

If you are saying you don't have the issues with your config, it would be helpful for others to repeat the exact configs you are using.

Even if EoS tweeking is required, I think companies need to keep in mind not everyone buying machines these days are pinball wizards with 20+ years of experience with these who are comfortable getting under the PF and adjusting things, especially right after they open it. Clearly there is some combination of coding etc that is causing these issues - and I would ask why Multimorph came here in defense mode, if this 'isn't an issue' then what is the fix? If it is code, are they assisting in figuring out what is going on? From the consumer perspective, this is an annoying issue that they do not want to deal with, they don't care who is at fault.

#11520 8 months ago
Quoted from SpookyCharlie:

most games don't have a left ramp that requires you to climb alpe du'Huez like Rick and Morty. (I bet the 3 cyclists in here got that joke).

Being a cyclist, I got the joke!

#11521 8 months ago

I thought this was a clunky game until I played one at Reboot arcade bar in Dunedin FL last week. I don't know what they did to open the shots up but it was like a different game. Looking forward to getting one now.

#11522 8 months ago
Quoted from SpookyCharlie:

If a scoop kick out takes down a flipper, then you need to adjust your EOS.

How should I adjust the gap? More gap ? Less gap? I have feeler gauges. How big should the gap be?

#11523 8 months ago
Quoted from Zablon:

I think companies need to keep in mind not everyone buying machines these days are pinball wizards with 20+ years of experience with these who are comfortable getting under the PF and adjusting things

Trust me... we know, and we're working hard to make a mountain of changes to make this easier for all of us.

Settings are factory default, EOS gap is wide as you can get and still make good contact at the end of stroke.

#11524 8 months ago
Quoted from SpookyCharlie:

The EOS adjustment matters a bunch. And there are exactly zero ways to prevent a knock down off the pop bumper that is 3" away. An absolute rocket shot in the ship loop that comes straight at a flipper will more times than not do the same. If a scoop kick out takes down a flipper, then you need to adjust your EOS. We completely fixed it on our test games quickly on this code.

That's why I didn't feel like this was a big deal, I don't know of any other game that fires so fast at the flippers.

Quoted from SpookyCharlie:

Settings are factory default, EOS gap is wide as you can get and still make good contact at the end of stroke.

Good to know... My left flipper still occasionally sticks, guess it's time to open my gap.

#11525 8 months ago

I just re-adjusted my EOS switches to engage at the extreme end of the flipper stroke (the way I have them on all my other pins). Before the latest update this would have caused the flippers to stick up, but I played for about 45 minutes and didn't have a single stuck flipper. So Eric got that fixed! I was still getting occasional knock-downs, so I raised the flipper hold to High. Unfortunately the extra heat caused enough flipper fade that the left ramp required an absolutely perfect shot to make it over the top (and this is with the fans), so I had to lower the hold back to Medium.

#11526 8 months ago
Quoted from Zablon:

SpookyCharlie
Can you post clear photos of how your EoS are adjusted?

I had the hood open, so I figured I'd take a photo of where my EOS switches are adjusted.

IMG_3436 (resized).jpeg
#11527 8 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

I had the hood open, so I figured I'd take a photo of where my EOS switches are adjusted.

This much open now? I thought previous advice was an 1/8 inch gap at the very end of the stroke?

#11528 8 months ago
Quoted from canea:

This much open now? I thought previous advice was an 1/8 inch gap at the very end of the stroke?

The most important thing about the EOS adjustment for R&M is how quickly it 'opens' as the flipper starts to come down. What the individual blades look like isn't that important, although less flexing is good for the life of the switch blades in general on any switch.

#11529 8 months ago

Im curiuos how routed games are holding up, and what was done to harden them for route use.

#11530 8 months ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

The most important thing about the EOS adjustment for R&M is how quickly it 'opens' as the flipper starts to come down. What the individual blades look like isn't that important, although less flexing is good for the life of the switch blades in general on any switch.

I've never had to think deeply about this, but they seem related. That is, I typically only bend the outer blade (habit...nothing more). Even though this puts more wear on the inner blade, it also creates more resistance, which would lead to it opening more quickly (which you are saying is important). yes/no? I'm happy to adjust these blades to Spooky perfection...no religion here on what I do on other pinball platforms

#11531 8 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Even though this puts more wear on the inner blade, it also creates more resistance,

Coil would need to work harder to push them too. (More heat over time)

I would never have them that far apart.

The other thing to consider is you want the face of the switch contacts to be flush together when switch blades contact. Not just the sides touching. The more contact area the better (particularly relevant on older pins with higher voltage in the blades)

rd

#11532 8 months ago

I reverted the code to the previous version and was greeted with missing textures during the attract screen. The machine would reboot at the end of every game as well. So I applied the newest version of the code and had the same issue. Cammy and I put our heads together and having looked at the log file determined that it has something to do with the scores (formatting?) so we did the following: factory reset the machine, cleared all error logs, and reset high scores. Now I can play a full game on the updated code so I will be leaving it alone for now instead of trying to revert.

I will note that the games I did play while it was on the old code this morning the flippers were back to normal. I took the glass off and did some tests rolling the ball at high speed toward the flippers making sure they'd stay up. On the new code doing this test results in reproducible knockdowns with high regularity. I have adjusted my EOS switches and put the hold power on HIGH for both flippers.

rmerror (resized).jpg
#11533 8 months ago
Quoted from SpookyCharlie:

The EOS adjustment matters a bunch. And there are exactly zero ways to prevent a knock down off the pop bumper that is 3" away. An absolute rocket shot in the ship loop that comes straight at a flipper will more times than not do the same. If a scoop kick out takes down a flipper, then you need to adjust your EOS. We completely fixed it on our test games quickly on this code.

All three of these will collapse the flippers on my game. If I adjust the EOS closer to compensate, the flipper sticks up occasionally. Hold power is set to high. What else can I do to fix the problem?

Note that I have both MET and TWD, and as hard as Sparky, Prison and WW magnets throw the ball at the flippers, I've never had one collapse. BK2K has a U-turn even closer than the ship U-turn on R&M and its flippers don't collapse. I disagree that collapse should be considered "normal" in any condition.

EDIT, just read Arzoo's post that the sticking seemed fixed in this latest release, but the collapsing was worse... I haven't upgraded yet and not sure if I should at this point...

#11534 8 months ago
Quoted from rotordave:

Coil would need to work harder to push them too. (More heat over time)
I would never have them that far apart.
The other thing to consider is you want the face of the switch contacts to be flush together when switch blades contact. Not just the sides touching. The more contact area the better (particularly relevant on older pins with higher voltage in the blades)

rd

Thanks for the advice. Look better? I don't notice a difference in flipper action, but if it results in slightly cooler coils and less wear on the switch, then it's a win.

IMG_3438 (resized).jpeg
#11535 8 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Thanks for the advice. Look better? I don't notice a difference in flipper action, but if it results in slightly cooler coils and less wear on the switch, then it's a win.
[quoted image]

This is about how I have mine, but I haven't changed any other settings.

#11536 8 months ago
Quoted from SpookyCharlie:

To be blunt... the heat in our RaM coils was comparable to Stern (within 5 degrees, we use basically the same coil in RaM is my point).

But WHICH Stern? For SAM and Whitestar I can believe that, but not for SPIKE. But even on SPIKE, there is a WIDE variance in Stern machine coil temps. And you'd have to test for at least 40 minutes per machine, and on some machines 90-120 minutes to see the deviation in heat.

Quoted from SpookyCharlie:

Cooler than other makers by anywhere from 5 to even 20 degrees under normal play. At full stress levels, basically the same results. Cooler than all but 1, and minimal differences there.

These were not the results I got for R&M with temp probes strapped directly to the coils. Changing to the FL-22-900 seemed to definitely make the coils run hotter over time. Earlier Spooky games with dual-wound coils did not run as hot in testing.

Quoted from SpookyCharlie:

The hold power at the hottest points of testing were 100% on par with everyone else. Better than all but 1, and within 5 to 8 newtons of break force to the best.

Hold power I can't comment on because I haven't done that testing (and I don't need another rabbit hole to explore), but if you hold a Spooky R&M flipper for 20 minutes straight, it will be much hotter than a SPIKE coil held for the same time in all the testing I did. That said, I can't recall ever having a flipper knockdown on a Spike game.

#11537 8 months ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

These were not the results I got for R&M with temp probes strapped directly to the coils.

He was testing the code that eventually was the 03.05 update. Not what you tested.

#11538 8 months ago
Quoted from metallik:

I disagree that collapse should be considered "normal" in any condition.

Yep...

#11539 8 months ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

I can't recall ever having a flipper knockdown on a Spike game.

I've owned Sterns since 2004 and I've never had a flipper knockdown on any Stern. My TRON's (SAM IIRC) have the translucent rubber disk that flings the ball faster than any game I've ever owned. Really crazy velocity...much faster than the R&M VUK or pop bumper. Flippers have no problem when hit. This is a game that is now a decade old. In an ideal world, the flipper tech would get better, not worse! Especially in a booming pinball world like the one we live in. Maybe a few bucks needs to be thrown into the BOM or R&D bucket. If dual wound coils run cooler, well...

Quoted from metallik:

I disagree that collapse should be considered "normal" in any condition.

Couldn't agree more...especially considering the VUK and Pop bumper mechs in R&M are quite old school!

#11540 8 months ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

But WHICH Stern? For SAM and Whitestar I can believe that, but not for SPIKE. But even on SPIKE, there is a WIDE variance in Stern machine coil temps

Elvira HOH now, earlier on in testing, Aerosmith.

And you are correct... heat was all over the map for all brands. I was checking temps at the absolute worst possible times of stress and blatant abuse as I mentioned with both locking coils on for a solid length of time, and just chimp flipping the daylights out of them for far longer than any human should. I only recorded the hottest temps I saw at the end (and combination) of each type of testing. Then tested again under normal game play. I spent 5 days doing nothing but this for hours on end.

Perfect science? Nope... but doing all we know how to make sure we are on par with what we all want here, and will continue to do more.

#11541 8 months ago

SpookyCharlie
Thank you and your team for the hardwork! With any issue brought to your attention it was quickly given attention and worked on for a solution!

#11542 8 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

If dual wound coils run cooler, well...

Not always. Depends on how they're driven. The 249F current temp record was on a jjPotC with Dual Wound coils. Temps well over 200F are not uncommon on uncooled JJP coils if you trap a lot according to the testing done so far.

#11543 8 months ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

He was testing the code that eventually was the 03.05 update. Not what you tested.

Looking forward to a longplay retest of the R&M coils, then. Thanks for letting me know there was improvement to the coil code to put a retest on the to-do list.

#11544 8 months ago
Quoted from snaroff:

Thanks for the advice. Look better? I don't notice a difference in flipper action, but if it results in slightly cooler coils and less wear on the switch, then it's a win.
[quoted image]

Looks much better.

Manually move the flipper bat slowly and see what happens. Make sure the contact points are touching nice.

Every game is different, but generally you want them to be closed a few MM before the flipper stops. Then, when a ball hits it while it’s up, it only drops down 1-2mm before the power is re-applied to the coil.

The older pre fliptronics games are the trickiest to get right, as the EOS is carrying the coil voltage (as are the flipper buttons) It’s a complete manual system. Whereas EOS on a modern pin is only detecting flipper drop down and signalling the CPU to fire the coil again.

rd

#11545 8 months ago
Quoted from SpookyCharlie:

Elvira HOH now, earlier on in testing, Aerosmith.
And you are correct... heat was all over the map for all brands. I was checking temps at the absolute worst possible times of stress and blatant abuse as I mentioned with both locking coils on for a solid length of time, and just chimp flipping the daylights out of them for far longer than any human should. I only recorded the hottest temps I saw at the end (and combination) of each type of testing. Then tested again under normal game play. I spent 5 days doing nothing but this for hours on end.
Perfect science? Nope... but doing all we know how to make sure we are on par with what we all want here, and will continue to do more.

You might want to suggest getting a HOBO 4 channel analog temperature logger (couple hundred bucks with 4 temp probes) that can track temps in almost real time and log them to a file that can show you the temperature progression over time while you just concentrate on playing the game hard for 90-120 minutes. Then when you're done, just save the temp data collected and you can make an almost realtime graph in excel or something like that. Since coil heat is like guitar feedback, it builds over time as the heat in the coil increases resistance, so longer play times non-stop are necessary to get an accurate picture.

#11546 8 months ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

Since coil heat is like guitar feedback, it builds over time as the heat in the coil increases resistance, so longer play times non-stop are necessary to get an accurate picture.

Nice tip! I shall look into this... plus, I freaking love making guitars feedback! Lol... but like a flipper, you want to control that s**t.

#11547 8 months ago

Quick question about coil wrappers: The dead air space (between the coil wrapper and coil) would act as a temperature insulator, correct?

Has anybody just tried tearing off the wrappers to see if that helps with cooling?

#11548 8 months ago
Quoted from klr650:

Has anybody just tried tearing off the sleeves to see if that helps with cooling?

That’ll be handy when the coils fall out.

(because the sleeves hold them in place)

rd

#11549 8 months ago
Quoted from rotordave:

That’ll be handy when the coils fall out.
(because the sleeves hold them in place)
rd

I think he means the outer wrapper. Most wrappers are paper, I'm guessing it doesn't hold much heat in.

#11550 8 months ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

I think he means the outer wrapper.

Make sense.

rd

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