Rick and Morty (Blood Sucker Edition)
Spooky Pinball, 2020
Rick and Morty (Standard)
Spooky Pinball, 2020Quoted from jguzik420:Did the update, is anyone else's giant heads not saying disqualified when you don't get get schwifty? Did I miss a post about it somewhere? Thanks
This was happening before the update and still now after..
I have not done the update yet, but my Comulon says Disqualified when I do not complete the adventure. I am running the update that came with my game (delivered 2 days ago). I believe it was a December update.
Yeah mine is getting some dimpling but 100% expected, all games will dimple they just even out after awhile. The big issue is playfield chips which I am so dang thankful that i dont have to worry about on this pin going by Stern/JJP threads.
Quoted from JohnDeere:The big issue is playfield chips which I am so dang thankful that i dont have to worry about on this pin going by Stern/JJP threads.
True!!!
Quoted from snaroff:I just nailed some really tough shots in succession and was struck by the lack of combo recognition (via some kind of bonus or special callout).
Would love to see some combo support added to the code.
Been noticing this too? The only combo I've noticed is the launch orbit/garage. However, there are lots of rules I'm just now figuring out. I played for a week before I realized the meeseeks bonuses/divisors.
Quoted from Zablon:Been noticing this too? The only combo I've noticed is the launch orbit/garage. However, there are lots of rules I'm just now figuring out. I played for a week before I realized the meeseeks bonuses/divisors.
Yeah, I'm not up on the subtleties of the rules...keeping the ball in play and making the shots is keeping me very busy!
That's part of what's cool about combos, they are orthogonal to the rules and a great way to reward the player with some points! The 6-way combo I made earlier today definitely deserved some points (it included the "Left ramp to upper loop to garage" mentioned by metallik above).
Hello everybody,
I just got my R&M #531 Baby!!
Alright for the fun part. I just turned on the power and saw a message on the screen which says, (no signal)
I can hear a “super loud fan” and playfield is lit up white.
But other than that, the start button and launch button aren’t lighting up and the screen is black.
No power to the start button.
Thanks for any help on this one.
Quoted from McDoom:Hello everybody,
I just got my R&M #531 Baby!!
Alright for the fun part. I just turned on the power and saw a message on the screen which says, (no signal)
I can hear a “super loud fan” and playfield is lit up white.
But other than that, the start button and launch button aren’t lighting up and the screen is black.
No power to the start button.
Thanks for any help on this one.
open the backbox and double check connections. Make sure the cable to the display is plugged in on both ends. I'd suggest like others have, go through and push in all connectors you can see in the backbox and if any are disconnected.
Quoted from Zablon:More
open the backbox and double check connections. Make sure the cable to the display is plugged in on both ends. I'd suggest like others have, go through and push in all connectors you can see in the backbox and if any are disconnected.
Alright, I reconnected everything it’s working now. Haha we are in business!!
There is a Flow Mobius Leader on the Board for longest Combo.
But a 'Just Goin' With The Flow' callout here and there would be nice for the recognition mid-game.
Just a quick follow up to my own troubleshooting post earlier regarding flaky a anti-gravity magnet despite the switch working perfectly - the magnet is plugged into the high voltage loom using a pretty flimsy z-plug, which makes sense for ease of replacing, but my connection was really loose. Since i'm probably never going to need to remove the magnet completely from the game (certainly not regularly anyway), I decided to bypass the z-connector and hard solder the magnet to the high volatge wires.
Prblem solved - like a whole feature of the game has been added for me now - got 2 high scores in a row immediately after fixing it.
IMG_1298 (resized).jpg
Quoted from cooked71:pretty flimsy z-plug
Soldering will fix it!
Although, splaying the legs out on the connector a little would have sorted it too, probably.
rd
Quoted from snaroff:I just nailed some really tough shots in succession and was struck by the lack of combo recognition (via some kind of bonus or special callout).
Would love to see some combo support added to the code.
Totally agree for as this game is call outs and combo bonuses would be icing on the cake. This game is so well integrated in every way. Would love to hear some exciting sound effects or voice work for combos.
INSTRUCTIONS FOR UPGRADING TO MAGNETIC REED SWITCHES
A few people reached out to me regarding some tips for replacing the upper right loop switches to Magnetic reed switches supplied by Pinsider Sonic . Great product BTW, and well worth the effort of replacing these switches - I did all sorts of adjustments to the original switches, but until I changed to these mag switches I had no idea how many shots were being missed in regular gameplay. So here goes.
If you're replacing both switches, might be a good idea to completely replace and test one switch at a time for ease of trouble shooting and less chance of messing up wires.
1) If you're only replacing the very top RHS loop switch it's obviously quite simple to work out which switch goes where, and how it's aligned, but if you're replacing the 2 switches, Sonic supplies 2 different switches with different alignments. They're nicely labeled with no.27 and no.28. Switch no. 27 goes on the inner orbit and no.28 goes on the top RHS orbit to the garage - this is the one you'll be replacing if just doing one switch. With the playfeild in the fully raised position, the placement mimics the original switches as per the finished photo below (the very bottom RHS of the raised PF). Im pointing to the one you'll be replacing if you're doing just the one switch):
IMG_1301 (resized).jpg
Sonic has aligned the switches magnets so the little magnets on the PF both face the top of of the PF (if you're looking at the PF with it down in normal position) as per the finished photo below:
IMG_1297 (resized).jpg
2) While the old switch(es) are still in place - best to unsolder them now as its much easier than if they're hanging loose. If you're doing the 2 switches at once, KEEP NOTE OF WHICH COLOUR ACTIVE WIRE GOES TO WHICH SWITCH. Should be the same on all RNM's - switch no.27 (inner loop) is a RED wire and switch no.28 is a WHITE wire. The BLACK wire is the common. Unsolder both wires (to both switches if doing 2).
3) Once you've unsoldered the wires, remove the switches from the PF. When you receive the new magnetic switches, they are not pre-drilled for screws - there will only be a black flat flap with no holes in it. So you need to drill the 2 holes. To align the holes to the correct position I found it easiest to use the existing switch bracket from the old switch. The original RNM switch setup has a cool little bracket which holds the old switch to the PF. Luckily the bracket is completely removable from the switch itself. Just pull the little plastic lugs back and pop the old switch out so now you have 2 pieces - the bracket and the switch:IMG_1195 (resized).jpg IMG_1196 (resized).jpgIMG_1197 (resized).jpg
4) Take the bracket and use it as a template to mark the location you need to drill the 2 holes on the new mag switch. Line it up as below. If you visualise the way the original switch sat in the bracket on the PF, you can see where it is to line up. You can check an original switch still installed to see where it goes. Basically the new mag switch just mimics the position old switch. The horizontal lug will line up with the very edge of magnetic part that sits in the switch slot on the pf and the inner wall of the bracket will line up with the long edge of the magnetic part that sits in the slot :IMG_1198 (resized).jpg
IMG_1294 (resized).jpg
InkedIMG_1294_LI line (resized).jpg
Use a led pencil to mark the holes:IMG_1199 (resized).jpg
5) Drill the holes out carefully using the edge of a workbench:IMG_1200 (resized).jpg
The plastic will have melted a bit and it helps to lightly sand/file off the plastic around the holes so that the switch will sit flush against the PF.
Slot the switch into it's slot on the PF and check the alignment of the holes. If it doesnt quite line up you can carefully enlarge the holes using the drill (out of the PF).
6) Install and re-screw the new switch into the PF.
7) Time to re-attached the old switch wires to the new switch.
Firstly, it actually doesnt matter on these mag switches which wire goes where. All that matters is that either of the green or white mag switch wires is connected to the correct coloured active switch wire for the switch you are replacing. Refer to the first point for colours. So if only changing switch no.28 for the outer garage loop, the active wire is white. You can attach either the green or the white wire from the mag switch to the original white wire and the other color mag switch wire to the black common.
Just because, I chose the green mag switch wire to go to the active wire and the white mag switch wire to the common (black) wire.
So for switch no.28 the green mag switch wire goes to white active PF switch wire and white mag wire goes to black common PF wire.
For switch no.27, green mag switch wire goes to red active PF switch wire and white mag wire goes to black common PF wire.
8.) Solder the wires. If you dont already have one, the best tool to help solder wires on pinball machines is a locking surgical clamp - everyone should have one. It's essential in providing a 3rd hand we need, and stops you burning your fingers: IMG_1302 (resized).jpg
Available here from Marcos:
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/77-FC6
Use the clamp to secure the 2 wires and twist the ends together if possible. Heat up the wires with your soldering iron until the solder takes:
IMG_1207 (resized).jpg
For switch no.27 inner loop, you'll be soldering to the black common in the "middle" of the wire since it is not ended on switch 27 (unlike switch 28 which is the last of the switches in this group and therefore the black common ends on this switch):IMG_1192 (resized).jpg
9) Cap your wires using heat shrink tubing (or electrical tape if you havent got shrink stuff). I use a gas soldering iron for pinball work since its fast and portable - the hole in the neck of the iron lets out alot of heat and is perfect for shrinking the wrap.IMG_1213 (resized).jpg
10) Test your switches by going into switch test and running a ball over each replaced switch. Check that the correct switch registers on the screen. Since the switch sits under the ramp, I used an extension magnet to run the ball over the switches, but you could just roll the ball down.
IMG_1212 (resized).jpg
Good luck.
Quoted from cooked71:INSTRUCTIONS FOR UPGRADING TO MAGNETIC REED SWITCHES
A few people reached out to me regarding some tips for replacing the upper right loop switches to Magnetic reed switches supplied by Pinsider sonic . Great product BTW, and well worth the effort of replacing these switches - I did all sorts of adjustments to the original switches, but until I changed to these mag switches I had no idea how many shots were being missed in regular gameplay. So here goes.
If you're replacing both switches, might be a good idea to completely replace and test one switch at a time for ease of trouble shooting and less chance of messing up wires.
1) If you're only replacing the very top RHS loop switch it's obviously quite simple to work out which switch goes where, and how it's aligned, but if you're replacing the 2 switches, sonic supplies 2 different switches with different alignments. They're nicely labeled with no.27 and no.28. Switch no. 27 goes on the inner orbit and no.28 goes on the top RHS orbit to the garage - this is the one you'll be replacing if just doing one switch. With the playfeild in the fully raised position, the placement mimics the original switches as per the finished photo below (the very bottom RHS of the raised PF). Im pointing to the one you'll be replacing if you're doing just the one switch):[quoted image]
sonic has aligned the switches magnets so the little magnets on the PF both face the top of of the PF (if you're looking at the PF with it down in normal position) as per the finished photo below:
[quoted image]
2) While the old switch(es) are still in place - best to unsolder them now as its much easier than if they're hanging loose. If you're doing the 2 switches at once, KEEP NOTE OF WHICH COLOUR ACTIVE WIRE GOES TO WHICH SWITCH. Should be the same on all RNM's - switch no.27 (inner loop) is a RED wire and switch no.28 is a WHITE wire. The BLACK wire is the common. Unsolder both wires (to both switches if doing 2).
3) Once you've unsoldered the wires, remove the switches from the PF. When you receive the new magnetic switches, they are not pre-drilled for screws - there will only be a black flat flap with no holes in it. So you need to drill the 2 holes. To align the holes to the correct position I found it easiest to use the existing switch bracket from the old switch. The original RNM switch setup has a cool little bracket which holds the old switch to the PF. Luckily the bracket is completely removable from the switch itself. Just pull the little plastic lugs back and pop the old switch out so now you have 2 pieces - the bracket and the switch:[quoted image] [quoted image][quoted image]
4) Take the bracket and use it as a template to mark the location you need to drill the 2 holes on the new mag switch. Line it up as below. If you visualise the way the original switch sat in the bracket on the PF, you can see where it is to line up. You can check an original switch still installed to see where it goes. Basically the new mag switch just mimics the position old switch. The horizontal lug will line up with the very edge of magnetic part that sits in the switch slot on the pf and the inner wall of the bracket will line up with the long edge of the magnetic part that sits in the slot :[quoted image]
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
Use a led pencil to mark the holes:[quoted image]
5) Drill the holes out carefully using the edge of a workbench:[quoted image]
The plastic will have melted a bit and it helps to lightly sand/file off the plastic around the holes so that the switch will sit flush against the PF.
Slot the switch into it's slot on the PF and check the alignment of the holes. If it doesnt quite line up you can carefully enlarge the holes using the drill (out of the PF).
6) Install and re-screw the new switch into the PF.
7) Time to re-attached the old switch wires to the new switch.
Firstly, it actually doesnt matter on these mag switches which wire goes where. All that matters is that either of the green or white mag switch wires is connected to the correct coloured active switch wire for the switch you are replacing. Refer to the first point for colours. So if only changing switch no.28 for the outer garage loop, the active wire is white. You can attach either the green or the white wire from the mag switch to the original white wire and the other color mag switch wire to the black common.
Just because, I chose the green mag switch wire to go to the active wire and the white mag switch wire to the common (black) wire.
So for switch no.28 the green mag switch wire goes to white active PF switch wire and white mag wire goes to black common PF wire.
For switch no.27, green mag switch wire goes to red active PF switch wire and white mag wire goes to black common PF wire.
8.) Solder the wires. If you dont already have one, the best tool to help solder wires on pinball machines is a locking surgical clamp - everyone should have one. It's essential in providing a 3rd hand we need, and stops you burning your fingers: [quoted image]
Available here from Marcos:
https://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/77-FC6
Use the clamp to secure the 2 wires and twist the ends together if possible. Heat up the wires with your soldering iron until the solder takes:
[quoted image]
For switch no.27 inner loop, you'll be soldering to the black common in the "middle" of the wire since it is not ended on switch 27 (unlike switch 28 which is the last of the switches in this group and therefore the black common ends on this switch):[quoted image]
9) Cap your wires using heat shrink tubing (or electrical tape if you havent got shrink stuff). I use a gas soldering iron for pinball work since its fast and portable - the hole in the neck of the iron lets out alot of heat and is perfect for shrinking the wrap.[quoted image]
10) Test your switches by going into switch test and running a ball over each replaced switch. Check that the correct switch registers on the screen. Since the switch sits under the ramp, I used an extension magnet to run the ball over the switches.
[quoted image]
Good luck.
Fantastic write up. What's everyone's thoughts on these switches? Are they really needed? Looking forward to finding out when my game ships
Quoted from wolv3:Fantastic write up. What's everyone's thoughts on these switches? Are they really needed? Looking forward to finding out when my game ships
Both the write-up and the switches look great, but my stock switches all worked great out-of-the-box. Not needed for #175. When it comes to tweaking a game, I'm a fan of a "less is more" approach. The effort in the write-up looks vastly more complex than bending the ball guide and/or adjusting the stock switches (for games that need it).
Quoted from snaroff:Both the write-up and the switches look great, but my stock switches all worked great out-of-the-box. Not needed for #175. When it comes to tweaking a game, I'm a fan of a "less is more" approach. The effort in the write-up looks vastly more complex than bending the ball guide and/or adjusting the stock switches.
It looks complicated, but it’s not, particularly if you’re only replacing one switch. A few of the people that PM’d me hadn’t had a lot of experience working on pins, so I thought I’d go into more detail than less. The instructions that come with the switches are definitely aimed at someone with more experience.
Put the magnet switches in the other night.
Took me no more than 6 minutes start to finish (Machine was open for cleaning at the time) and I forgot to account for the one Y connection and had to redo that one.
Huge improvement in flow and shot registration on #458.
Quoted from cooked71:It looks complicated, but it’s not, particularly if you’re only replacing one switch. A few of the people that PM’d me hadn’t had a lot of experience working on pins, so I thought I’d go into more detail than less. The instructions that come with the switches are definitely aimed at someone with more experience.
It would be nice if you could get them predrilled to eliminate the chance of screwing them up and not being properly aligned. Since they are numbered for the switch location that they are to be specifically used, you would think they could be made to be more plug and play. Just my .02
Quoted from gac:It would be nice if you could get them predrilled to eliminate the chance of screwing them up and not being properly aligned.
The nice thing is that they don't need to be as secure as a contact switch. One screw is all it takes to secure them.
Quoted from MikeS:Are the MRS switches even needed with the new code installed (3.02)?
I was getting hangups on slow rollers through the turnaround loop and my fast orbits were ramping/ jumping the upper right switch. Problems solved.
Quoted from MikeS:Are the MRS switches even needed with the new code installed (3.02)? The loopback made switch has been switched to the left switch for better reliability.
[quoted image]
Correct, the second switch in the loopback is now irrelevant.
On the first game after loading the latest update, this happened during my first multi-ball...balls filling up in the shooter lane. The auto launch mech isn't powerful enough to deal with this, so it's a showstopper that required the glass off and game stopped.
I've played hundreds of games so far (and never encountered this), so either I got really unlucky OR something about this software update has introduced a new bug.
Flipper knockdown is also noticeably worse with this update (for my flippers, at least).
IMG_3430 (resized).jpeg
Quoted from snaroff:On the first game after loading the latest update, this happened during my first multi-ball...balls filling up in the shooter lane. The auto launch mech isn't powerful enough to deal with this, so it's a showstopper that required the glass off and game stopped.
I've played hundreds of games so far (and never encountered this), so either I got really unlucky OR something about this software update has introduced a new bug.
Flipper knockdown is also noticeably worse with this update (for my flippers, at least).
[quoted image]
OK...just did some more testing. Definitely a bad bug with multi-ball mode, where balls just keep coming out (without a ball save). Just happened again. Basically Infinite Multi-ball mode that only ends when the shooter lane fills with balls.
Quoted from snaroff:OK...just did some more testing. Definitely a bad bug with multi-ball mode, where balls just keep coming out (without a ball save). Just happened again. Basically Infinite Multi-ball mode that only ends when the shooter lane fills with balls.
that sucks.... 
Unlimited multiball nice! Maybe I'll finally break 100mil.
The screw hole lacking on the MRS seems like more daunting then it is. Take a pencil make two lines, add switch now look at the lines and connect them (draw on the switch if you don't want to eye ball it) boom where they cross is the hole.
I used connectors from Amazon to make it easier where you just toss the wires in and heat it. Solders the wires and seals then also for good measure.
I have tons of plays and no ship plastic breakage yet (#319)
I finally beat the default high score for dimensions visited with 8, and I had at least 20 megaseeds. This game is a freaking blast when you get deeper into it. Trying to do well in modes, stack them with multiballs, charging the portal gun, jumping to new dimensions to grab megaseeds, dealing with Meeseeks... what a ride!!!!!
20210306_142738 (resized).jpgQuoted from snaroff:OK...just did some more testing. Definitely a bad bug with multi-ball mode, where balls just keep coming out (without a ball save). Just happened again. Basically Infinite Multi-ball mode that only ends when the shooter lane fills with balls.
Thanks for posting this. Prevented me from loading the updated code.
Quoted from RobT:Thanks for posting this. Prevented me from loading the updated code.
No problem...kind of amazed more people haven't loaded the update. I reinstalled the January update and everything went back to normal, which confirms something was foobar with the update.
Quoted from jsa2145:Did you have a small bit of knockdown before or none at all ?
like if you hold the right flipper up when the scoop ejects does it drop down 1/3 of the way or more ?
I had no knockowns before the update ( where the flipper goes all the way down). I did have some sticks before the current update where the flipper would be knocked 1/3 of the way back and stay there till there was another flip. It's like every stick is now a knockdown. I have not had the multiball bug mentioned by snanoff so far.
Quoted from pinballinreno:Flipper collapse/knockdown is part of the P-ROC system for now. Its not Spokky's fault, its just something to work trough.
Quoted from metallik:Data East got PWM flippers working in the 80s, why can't P-ROC get them working just as well decades later?
I was just alerted to these posts in this thread. I'd have responded immediately had I read them when first posted.
Please stop with the libelous comments and untruths. I talk pinball with pretty much everybody who asks, whenever they ask. You could at least contact me and ask before posting comments making assumptions about the hardware. As I discuss with everybody who asks, flipper knockdowns and such are well understood (literally every relevant detail about them) and are the primary reason EOS switches exist (secondary reason: to have exact-length flipper pulses matched to each flipper's throw, regardless of where the ball contacts the flipper). Flipper mechs without EOS switches can suffer from knockdowns. Flipper mechs with EOS switches can resolve knockdowns with hardware and/or software designed to do so.
Technical explanation follows:
The P-ROC/P3-ROC implement (and have since day 1) "switch rules". These switch rules enable low latency coil responses to switch events. That means you can configure the hardware to immediately flip a coil in response to a flipper button, and that's why you don't see lag between button presses and coil activations that you would see if you implemented flipper firing in software. You can do the same with EOS switches... tell the hardware to immediately fire a flipper in response to an EOS opening (or closing, depending on your polarity). Caveat... you don't want the flipper to refire when you release the button, so the EOS rules have to be added and removed dynamically when the button is pressed/released. This would cause a couple of corner cases due to latency between the actual button press and when software learns of the button press. So a few extra software commands are needed to deal with those corner cases. That's it... 100% working flippers with no knockdowns using the P-ROC/P3-ROC hardware that'll work even with the first release of the P-ROC firmware in 2009 and with both dual-wound and single-wound coils. The only downside to the extra software commands is that they'll have a tiny affect on the timing of twitch flips or tickles with some coils, though I've never heard any complaint about that (it's a couple dozen milliseconds max).
Rewriting the libelous statements above correctly: Games with P-ROC/P3-ROC require EOS switches to be able deal with knockdowns, and they'll need a few additional software commands to close up timing holes.
Yes, we can add functionality to the P-ROC / P3-ROC to completely handle all of this in hardware, just allowing software to set up slightly more complex "flipper rules", and we've talked to various game manufacturers about doing that. We've scoped the change and have scheduled it into our dev roadmap. That will eliminate the need for a few lines of code, and it would also eliminate the timing effect on tickles. As such it'll be nicer for programmers, but not fully necessary, hence the lower priority.
If you don't know me, I'm incredibly proud of our hardware. It's changed more of the pinball landscape than most people realize, and I work hard to address usability issues with all of our products (control system, P3 machine, etc). If you think the hardware simply can't do something properly, shoot me a PM, and let's chat about it. That said, please make sure to report behavioral issues with your machines to the machine manufacturer. They'll support you with the machine. Then they'll communicate with me on any relevant feature requests or bug fixes on the P-ROC/P3-ROC boards, and we'll all discuss the appropriate actions. (Note - most companies just use our P3-ROC, PD-LED, PD-16, and SW-16. Some also use our power entry. All other boards in your machines are likely not ours.)
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com
Quoted from ripple:I had no knockowns before the update ( where the flipper goes all the way down). I did have some sticks before the current update where the flipper would be knocked 1/3 of the way back and stay there till there was another flip. It's like every stick is now a knockdown. I have not had the multiball bug mentioned by snanoff so far.
Interesting you aren't seeing the MB bug. Hmm...I grabbed the bits from the Spooky website today (not the bits Eric posted a couple days ago).
Quoted from gstellenberg:Rewriting the libelous statements above correctly: Games with P-ROC/P3-ROC require EOS switches to be able deal with knockdowns, and they'll need a few additional software commands to close up timing holes.
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com
This is very encouraging news! I hope you and Eric can powwow and make sure the few lines of code to close up timing holes will be added. Would also be useful to get guidance on the optimal EOS position to avoid knockdown. On other platforms, my goal is to adjust the EOS at the very end of stroke (for maximum strength). On JJP games, this works great. Is this the same on P-ROC/P3-ROC?
One question: The upper flipper on R&M doesn't have an EOS switch and I occasionally get knockdowns on the upper flipper (though not nearly as bad as the lower flippers that deal with the pop bumper and scoop VUK). Does this mean I will need to live with the knockdowns on the upper flipper?
Timings for power pulse timing on/off (how the flipper holds) were changed in the latest update based on data Charlie collected with a pressure sensor and IR thermometer. I changed it to what Charlie found to give the best balance between hold strength and heat over time. If you haven’t already, you could up your hold strength to “high” in the settings for slightly higher power; and EOS should be adjusted to close near the end of the stroke.
As for the multiball bug, that may be related to the new code for clearing a ball in the jam opto after a ball is already in play. I hadn’t run into an issue, and none of the beta testers reported anything, so if someone has directions on how to reliably recreate it that would help a lot. Meanwhile I’ll just have to try things.
Quoted from gstellenberg:Please stop with the libelous comments and untruths. I talk pinball with pretty much everybody who asks, whenever they ask. You could at least contact me and ask before posting comments making assumptions about the hardware.
Hi Gerry,
I made no assumptions and made no untrue statements. This post:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/aw-jeez-official-rick-and-morty-club/page/78#post-5710895
stated there was an issue with the flippers sticking up, and it sure sounded like a problem with the hardware that we'd just have to accept. My post above asked exactly what you answered: why don't P-ROC flippers work as well as other PWM flippers? The repeated complaints in this thread are absolute proof the flippers in R&M don't work as well as Stern or other current games. It appears the answer is because your flipper code runs in software, and not as a hardware implementation?
May I suggest, instead of getting pissed when folks call out badly-working flippers, that you instead acknowledge it and accelerate development on your hardware solution instead? The flippers are the most important part of the game. I'm tired of having to explain to other players and guests why R&M flippers collapse and don't work like every other pinball I've owned over the past 20 years. I've got R&M next to an AIQ and the difference in flipper action is very noticeable between the two games. Please do whatever you can to address this issue. I honestly had no idea PROC flippers were controlled in this manner, but it doesn't work well in my experience.
Quoted from epthegeek:Timings for power pulse timing on/off (how the flipper holds) were changed in the latest update based on data Charlie collected with a pressure sensor and IR thermometer. I changed it to what Charlie found to give the best balance between hold strength and heat over time. If you haven’t already, you could up your hold strength to “high” in the settings for slightly higher power; and EOS should be adjusted to close near the end of the stroke.
As for the multiball bug, that may be related to the new code for clearing a ball in the jam opto after a ball is already in play. I hadn’t run into an issue, and none of the beta testers reported anything, so if someone has directions on how to reliably recreate it that would help a lot. Meanwhile I’ll just have to try things.
My hold strength is on "high" and definitely helps (with the January release).
Does it make sense for the power pulse timings to be configurable via settings? (setting the defaults to whatever you folks decide). When I loaded the March update with Charlie's parameters, flipper knockdown was worse than the January update (which implies the parameters are dynamic/variable and/or dependent on the precise EOS signaling?). I realize the proper settings might not be obvious, but it at least gives us some opportunity to fiddle if the defaults @ Spooky don't jive with our local machine environment.
On my machine, the MB bug was trivial to reproduce (seemed to happed both times I entered MB). If there was anything special I did to cause it to happen, it wasn't obvious to me. Hopefully someone else can reproduce it. In theory, the install image could have been bad, but I imagine that is unlikely.
Quoted from snaroff:My hold strength is on "high" and definitely helps (with the January release).
Does it make sense for the power pulse timings to be configurable via settings? (setting the defaults to whatever Charlie collects). I realize the proper settings might not be obvious, but it at least gives us some opportunity to fiddle if the defaults @ Spooky don't jive with our local machine environment.
On my machine, the MB bug was trivial to reproduce (seemed to happed both times I entered MB). If there was anything special I did to cause it to happen, it wasn't obvious to me. Hopefully someone else can reproduce it. In theory, the install image could have been bad, but I imagine that is unlikely.
The timings are adjustable with the low/medium/high right now, but that’s all you really get. There was a change in the patterning of the on/off in the new release based on Charlie’s testing. I suppose I could add another option to go back to the old timing pattern.
I need “do this and then this and then you will see the issue” directions. Just saying you were able to replicate it doesn’t get me any closer to what caused it. I’ve never seen it do what it did on your game. I don’t know if maybe it’s a switch issue (trough/shooter lane) or it’s repeatable on any game. I will of course try to see if I can figure it out by guessing, but if you could detail it, or shoot a video of creating it, I would appreciate it.
Quoted from metallik:May I suggest, instead of getting pissed when folks call out badly-working flippers, that you instead acknowledge it and accelerate development on your hardware solution instead?
The flipper problem isn’t Gerry’s problem, it’s mine. That’s what he was getting at.
Quoted from epthegeek:The timings are adjustable with the low/medium/high right now, but that’s all you really get. There was a change in the patterning of the on/off in the new release based on Charlie’s testing. I suppose I could add another option to go back to the old timing pattern.
I need “do this and then this and then you will see the issue” directions. Just saying you were able to replicate it doesn’t get me any closer to what caused it. I’ve never seen it do what it did on your game. I don’t know if maybe it’s a switch issue (trough/shooter lane) or it’s repeatable on any game. I will of course try to see if I can figure it out by guessing, but if you could detail it, or shoot a video of creating it, I would appreciate it.
I already reinstalled the January update since the March update wasn't working for me. If no-one else is able to reproduce it, I will reinstall tomorrow. If the bug doesn't resurface, then that would prove it was some kind of install headbutt. Wouldn't be the first time. My JP2 dinosaur was totally foobar after an update and after reinstalling with a fresh SD card, the dinosaur came back to life. Bizarre.
Quoted from epthegeek:The flipper problem isn’t Gerry’s problem, it’s mine. That’s what he was getting at.
It may be a software problem, but Gerry implies the software solution is straightforward...a few lines of code. Based on the little I've learned, it's not the lines of code but finding the right parameters (which sounds arcane). The challenge is making this work for everyone.
Quoted from snaroff:I already reinstalled the January update since the March update wasn't working for me. If no-one else is able to reproduce it, I will reinstall tomorrow. If the bug doesn't resurface, then that would prove it was some kind of install headbutt. Wouldn't be the first time. My JP2 dinosaur was totally foobar after an update and after reinstalling with a fresh SD card, the dinosaur came back to life. Bizarre.
It may be a software problem, but Gerry implies the software solution is straightforward...a few lines of code. Based on the little I've learned, it's not the lines of code but finding the right parameters (which sounds arcane). The challenge is making this work for everyone.
The add/remove of the EOS hardware rules with switch presses I’m not currently doing. I can add that, so there’s still more to tweak on my end.
Quoted from epthegeek:The flipper problem isn’t Gerry’s problem, it’s mine. That’s what he was getting at.
Ahh ok gotcha. I do want to apologize for harping on the flippers so much.. I should have known the underpinnings were more complex that I was envisioning.
I will say again that on any game, I have no problem paying extra for the best possible flipper systems. Very happy to hear of PROC's hardware solution and hoping it might be available as an upgrade for R&M down the road. Remember, WMS manufactured hundreds of thousands of Fliptronics boards for their games when they didn't really need to, but they knew they had the best flippers in the business and that mattered.
Shit is getting weird.
I'm still running the December update. Always had a little flipper knock down, but everything else is sweet. Never messed with eos switches, flipper power settings, or ball launch power settings.
Will not consider updating code till shit is definitely figured out, or I hear that I can win a Mexican Armada.
Quoted from metallik:May I suggest, instead of getting pissed when folks call out badly-working flippers.
Not at all pissed about that. I'm upset about the comments saying that knockdowns are "part of the P-ROC system" and that P-ROC controlled flippers can't behave as well as Data East flippers from the 80s, both of which are pretty much the definition of libel in that they're incorrect and undeservedly damaging to our reputation/business.
I'm not upset about discussions for improving your flippers, and I agree that it's a worthwhile discussion and hopefully results in improved performance. I think I pretty thoroughly explained everything, but your response still suggests some misunderstandings. So let me address a few points.
The flippers are the most important part of the game.
I agree.
I've got R&M next to an AIQ and the difference in flipper action is very noticeable between the two games.
There are lots of differences between the two games... coils, mechs, power filtering, etc, and both of those games have a lot of differences from Fliptronics. What specifically are we talking about now? Knockdowns? As discussed above, games with P-ROC can/should be made to operate without knockdowns. If your flippers are getting knocked down, proper EOS rules (whether hardware or software) will fix that.
Please do whatever you can to address this issue.
What would you like me to do besides explaining why you have knockdowns, propose the software commands that will close any logic gaps due to timing, and schedule work on the implementation of a complex "switch rule" that eliminates the need for those software commands? That's what I did, and then you attacked again.
The repeated complaints in this thread are absolute proof the flippers in R&M don't work as well as Stern or other current games.
I can't speak to R&M flippers vs Stern or other games. P-ROC is used in a lot of other games, including hundreds running fliptronic boards and many running varying configurations of coils / mechs / voltages / etc. Do P-ROC-controlled WPC/Stern games have the same problems? I can speak a bit to Houdini, which runs P-ROC and did have a knockdown issue. Josh and I chatted, and he implemented a change. I haven't been told of any knockdown issues there since an EOS-based software change was made. That said, I believe Houdini has dual-wound coils, and that's an important difference. If R&M tells the hardware to issue a re-pulse on an EOS event, but the re-pulse is configured to be too weak, it won't keep the flipper up. Lots of variables, yet your conclusion is always "cause, P-ROC". BTW, Eric and I have chatted too, and we chatted again today.
It appears the answer is because your flipper code runs in software, and not as a hardware implementation?
I'm not sure how you concluded that from the explanation. I'm pretty sure the P-ROC is the only control system in pinball that uses hardware logic to control flippers (in an FPGA and as configured by software). I'm pretty sure every other pinball control system uses software (usually in a local microcontroller). There are some trade-offs. Our control system can and does react faster to switch events than every other system out there. That said, for more complex flipper control logic, we either need more complex switch rule support in our FPGA firmware, or software needs to send a couple of extra commands, and that's exactly what we're talking about here.
If you want to discuss more specific details in private, please PM me.
- Gerry
https://www.multimorphic.com
Quoted from gstellenberg:Not at all pissed about that. I'm upset about the comments saying that knockdowns are "part of the P-ROC system" and that P-ROC controlled flippers can't behave as well as Data East flippers from the 80s, both of which are pretty much the definition of libel in that they're incorrect and undeservedly damaging to our reputation/business.
In my experience, PROC flippers get knocked down easily. Houdini and now R&M. If there is a fix, I am glad to hear and eagerly await it, but my opinion of the flippers is not libel. They have not performed as well as ANY other manufacturer; again, in my experience. I understand your desire to defend your product and look forward to improvements in R&M. I have balls slam into the flippers on AIQ with nary a budge, and I hope R&M can perform the same after updates.
Quoted from gstellenberg:What would you like me to do besides explaining why you have knockdowns, propose the software commands that will close any logic gaps due to timing, and schedule work on the implementation of a complex "switch rule" that eliminates the need for those software commands? That's what I did, and then you attacked again.
I am not attacking you. When I said please do all you can, I was referring to this below. Anything to help flippers should be a priority IMHO:
Quoted from gstellenberg:We've scoped the change and have scheduled it into our dev roadmap. That will eliminate the need for a few lines of code, and it would also eliminate the timing effect on tickles. As such it'll be nicer for programmers, but not fully necessary, hence the lower priority.
The hardware/software comparison was me misreading your original post regarding your improvements, putting the drive code into the base hardware. I was picturing a separate controller for some reason.
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