I like that you are providing this as a service, but it really shouldn't be necessary. I know all the games could potentially benefit from these, but this is a different situation. A shot is unmakeable (left ramp) after 60 minutes of play is nuts to me.

Friction from a flipper too tight to the bushing and/or a coil stop are a good bet to check. The testing I have so far has the right coil between 131 and 140F after 30-40 minutes of play. That's definitely enough to notice fade, but usually not enough for ramp rollbacks, unless the ramp is steep.

It's not unheard of. 20 years ago, Lord of the Rings pioneered the concept of unmakeable shots late in the game from severe fade. Because of the nature of coils and the laws of thermodynamics, I don't see a way to completely eliminate the problem without active cooling. It's been around as long as pinball, but only the most severe cases are noticed. Most people experience moderate fade as missed/bricked shots late in the game and chalk it up to their play when it's actually mild/moderate coil fade. I was the same way. But since I've been testing temps, it's made me much more attentive to what's happening and I now recognize those missed/bricked shots late in a game (that I made much more consistently earlier in the game) for what they usually are - mild/moderate fade.

All of that said, and with what I've gathered so far in testing Spike and Spooky machines (JJP next), active cooling should just be a standard feature, at least for their LEs.

Believe me, I've gone over everything with the flipper mech, coil stops, EOS switch, pf slope, flipper angle, and flipper shaft gaping (there's no binding), etc. 30 minutes was a guess on my part - all I can say is when first playing (cold) the ball clears the top of the ramp with power to spare (not a lot, but some). After playing for a while, the ball makes it to the top of the ramp but not over the threshold - which is SO annoying. I've never had a problem like this before with a new pin, and if it were an older pin, I'd just do a rebuild on the flipper.

The game should be designed so that all ramps are makable when the game has been played 60 minutes+. I'm not talking about fancy backhands etc. Simply making the forehand shot with a clean shot. Fade will happen, but the design should overcome that also. We had a small gathering with a few folks over playing constant 4 player games and it was rough after a while.

Have you tried rebuilding the flippers?

LOL, no. But if Spooky sends me a new set of parts then sure
I've actually asked them to send me a new coil.

I'm on the fence here. If you're inclined to comment or vote... please do.
Thanks
Kerry

Trade R&M BSE #556 for GnR's LE? (link below)

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/would-you-trade-rampm-bse-nib-position-556-for-nib-gnr-s-le-position

Have you played R&M?
Did you buy it cause you like Rick and Morty, or to potentially flip for a small profit.
If you are after the $1000 over what you paid, then swap it now.
There will be 5000 gnr l.e. out there, and only 750 r&m. I'd be inclined to keep r&m, you will always be able to pick up a gnr later if you don't like r&m, you just might not get that sweet sweet flip coin.
I would be worried I wouldn't get another r&m tho, I'm not selling mine to get a gnr...ever

Rick and Morty all day.

Just for the popultion alone.

I’d like to have more indication when you collect a mega seed like a sound effect.

I love the end sequences hopefully additional ones can be added.

I think it’ll come down to which theme you love more. They are both great pins. I can’t really answer honestly because I don’t actually own RM yet (tomorrow).

I have played it multiple times so if I had to choose after playing both I’d go RM. I’ve owned GNR now for a few weeks and I love it but I know I had a lot more fun gettin my ass handed to me by RM and wanting to play it more.

If you want, ask me again in another week or so after I pick up RM tomorrow.

Games with small breaks in the action DO really slow down the progression of fade by giving the flipper coils small rest breaks while something is happening on the screen or the ball is dancing around the pops or something. But those breaks also can be annoying as a player, so giving continuous action with active cooling is probably the most friendly solution.

Maybe a probe that lets you know you crammed those megaseeds way up your butthole?

Did you compare the resistance of the left and right coils using a multimeter? That would point up if the right coil has an issue unrelated to temps.

Lmfao. Hilarious!

Me. No way. I was going for a GnR but after playing one so glad that I waited and played it first. Some people ***love*** GnR like Kenada and they’re going to love it and also I don’t think Kenada really cares about gameplay he’s more about the spectacle and the theme.

To me (flame suite on) GnR is a terrible gameplay. I actually hated playing it.

R&M is way tougher shots but way more fun and rules and callouts blow away GnR.

I believe there is already a sound effect for a collecting a megaseed, but it's pretty subtle. Like a little crunching noise. Could be a bigger squish. lol

I can't speak to the Game Play.

But, if any of my pinball machines ever start playing a Wings tune?

I am dragging that thing out into the yard and setting it on fire.

I haven't seen or played either yet. However, I've bought many pins before without seeing or playing them.

I currently own 20+ late model pins, so I'm fairly educated on game play and theme. There's an arcade about 50 miles from me that has both. However, they're closed for Covid reasons. Once they open, I'll drop in and play them.

I kind of did exactly this. Was blown away by GNR, couldn't afford both at the exact same time. Sold my R&M to a good friend with first right to buy it back. I swing by his place once a week or so and play R&M. Win Win! R&M is a great game. GNR is a great game. GNR shoots great. R&M is harder for sure.
Difference is that GNR isn't limited to 750 games. I'd recommend you lean to whatever theme you enjoy most.

R&M is not the best layout some shots feel off but its fun anyway.

I wish it was better set up from the factory. I may not be able to remove parts and tweak everything to make it play like it should.

Totally disagree here. I'd play another example. Location game?

Does anyone know what game # Spooky is currently on?

I agree, GNR is slower play but it is a great game and the more I play it the more I enjoy it. It’s also not entirely slow play. If you can repeat orbits and the upper loop off the right upper flipper, there’s some speed there. I’ve gotten the left orbit and a couple upper loops and that loop comes around fast just like RM or TGA.

And, you can combo that up with a ramp shot but if course that would slow it back down.

I’d guess they’re in the 350’s

I’m picking up 313 tomorrow.

Wayne, that is indeed a very good point mate. It's the one factor that hasn't been made clear yet. I had (quite possibly falsely) assumed the container was delivered to Mark's warehouse for unloading or at least he was there to supervise the unloading of it at the forwarding agent's warehouse. I've asked for that specific as it would most certainly explain the situation. It would also no doubt affect how Spooky views the situation. It also would back up my feeling that it was a mistake Spooky didn't engage you like they have in the past, which is also relevant for the guys already having tech issues out of the box.

Can you try this? Play for 20-30 min and when you notice the left ramp is unmakeable feel the coil. Is it too hot to touch? I bet so, but it would be good info to get a handle on the issue. then check the right one. Is it too hot to touch?

How long ago did you get contacted about options etc?

I would never trade for GnR. Guns and Roses as a theme does nothing for me remotely and is not even in the same ballpark as RM for theme integration personally. Besides theme I have a real hard time getting into any of the recent JJP offerings. DI is a masterpiece and I would love to own one some day, Hobbit's world under the glass and video integration is stellar, Pirates is Pirates not much needed to say but the recent games all sound like... slot machines. I cant handle it. I know JJP makes great and well made games, but they just sound cheap and the theme never clicks. I had the same issue with wonka, god I wanted to love that game but I just can not get into it. Oh and hot take incoming, those LED strips on the side for the concert light effects look cheap as hell, like some mod someone sold that does not fit, but its from the factory.

That must have been one hell of a Recording Session.

Does it need to be active cooling? I just get leery of fans and parasitic load being added everywhere. And you have to admit it's kinda silly that the active fans in a psu are too loud and annoying for some, so yay: swap those out then add the noise back in by adding an extra fan... Which is itself another mechanical failure mode.

(I realize you make the quiet kit and that comment isn't a dig... In fact I might want one myself).

Can some sort of passive heat sink be devised, like a clamp that wraps around the coil itself? Seems if passive sinks work for silicon they can work for coils. I'd try to develop something like that myself but won't have our R&M for another.... Several months, d'oh

You're not trying hard enough MORTY! I said WAAAAY up in there!!

I'll check that and report back.

The load for these fans is the lowest I could find @ 0.1 amp per fan. So power draw isn't really a concern. They're extremely reliable as I've used them in the spike power supplies for a few years now and zero have failed in a pretty broad base sold so far.

People have tried heat sinks, but I feel that a metal heat sink on a coil with coated metal windings is an accident waiting to happen. I would never risk it.

Request for build sheet 10/8
Request for payment 10/30
Ready for pick up 11/10

Ok so we have established now that Mark 100% sighted the container and confirms damage was due to the way it was packed.

Also we are now hearing that a couple of owners who have their R&Ms already, have discovered broken parts like the right ramp post. We are now waiting to see how the other owners fair as they take delivery around the country across the next few days. I’m now very nervous about what I’m going to find with mine come Monday.

I paid for 331 on Saturday so I would guess it’s probably on the line this week and will be here maybe late next week?

Yep about 2 weeks.
Just think about something else for now....

Sucks you can’t go inside Spooky headquarters when you pick up your game. It was like like a pinball wonderland in there when I picked up my ACNC and got to play the RM prototype with Charlie and friends. Cool day for sure.

The contents of the container would have been inspected by AQIS and ABF of course, at a quarantine warehouse. They wouldn't care in the least if one or two tipped over, and why wouldn't they neglect to report any "minor mishap" if they think there is any possibility they might get away with it? ... the lack of "Tip and Tell" and Drop/Shock labels is a big downer for shipping a NIB pinball across the planet in 2020. Considering the risk it is cheap insurance and encouragement for handlers to respect the goods.

*Edit: Guessing... updated a couple of posts above.

Sucks BIG time!

I was really looking forward to going inside, getting a tour, playing some games and doing some shopping.

Oh well, could be worse with Covid ramping up again.

I’m ok with it and we should all try to stay safe. Makes sense and is the right thing to do.

Thanks, I bought another Pin, so i have to sell two arcade games and a jukebox. Having a months notice is what i needed to know.

i hear you, last time i took a tour video and talked a lot. im gonna miss shooting the shit with charlie and gang. let us know how tomorrow goes!

Mark sent me some photos of the games as he received them. He states that "They put 8 of the games on top of other games. Yours was one of the ones underneath hence the damage on the top. Travelling 40 days on a ship with 130kg games on top. I think there also must have been some rough weather as it looks like those games on top might have moved around a lot. That’s a lot of weight on the games underneath".

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IMG_0249 (resized).jpg

Wow. I can't believe they loaded the container like that. I wonder if the shipping company packed it and not Spooky. I hope that's what happened

That seems like a likely way to damage both pins on the top AND the bottom.

Sadly this will would make Collector Quality Rick and Morty's even rarer down under.

I can respect that. But for what it's worth, those same coils are already mounted to metal brackets and moving parts, and even used metal sleeves until the discovery that nylon sleeves have less friction against a metal plunger, so done properly a sink could be just as safe. Maybe the coil could be wrapped by thermally conductive - but electrically insulative - mica film and have the sink clamped to that.

Just spitballing alternatives... I (and the rest of us I'm sure) appreciate your research and efforts into solving these issues.

I've experienced thermal coil depression on some of my (older) WMS games during long parties and expos and such so I do agree it's a legit phenomenon, but those games usually aren't quite as sensitive to it, shot wise... so while I never felt compelled to consider it a big issue, may I could experiment after all. Of course now that I'm thinking about it, if the coil expands too much while hot, a clamped sink might not be a great idea anyway, lest the coil then be forced to expand inward against the sleeve/plunger. D'oh!