Ok, but would it cost like $5000 msrp? And be only one version? And what would the used market look like?

I definitely don’t think JJP is entirely responsible for the ridiculous explosion of high end machines and price inflation, but they contributed for sure. And I say this as someone who owns a (used) JJP.

Dialing in games is part of owning them. Also, I guess I’m in the minority here, but dmds are just fine. LCDs look cool, but they don’t really add that much. Pinball is about what the actual pinball actually touches.

You bought the product knowing these issues existed. This isn't new. Why is it fair to put the problem back on the distro because you got burned by the risk you took?

This is a whole thread of people pilling on JJP, and rightly. But I don't think anyone who bought a GNR has any room to complain here. This was an issue before that and you bought it anyway.

Are they supposed to just stop selling JJP entirely? That's an absurd stance. I think a good distributor would warn buyers of known issues. But in the end, the buyers are the problem. People are going to buy. You want the distributor to risk their business and income on it? They are just as frustrated with JJP, but they can't just stop, this is their business. But the buyers can actually just stop.

It's like people don't realize you don't actually have to buy the new games.

Edit: It should also be noted that not everyone cares about chipping and pooling. Some people buy the games to play them knowing that damage is going to happen. The distributors still serve these people.

But, if you care so much about this, you shouldn't have bought this. Plain and simple. People have been using the phrase "speak with your wallet" for years about quality and playfield issues. Take a bit of personal responsibility here.

NO ONE FORCED YOU TO MAKE A DEPOSIT! No one made you buy the game.

I'm not defending JJP here. I'm saying that people wouldn't have a problem with their GNR playfields if they hadn't bought the game in the first place. This isn't a new issue with GNR. But the people who bought it decided it was worth the risk. Now they are paying for it.

Take the loss you earned, learn from it, and stop buying new games until it is proven to be fixed.

I'm not a fan of the distros either, but I don't see why they should take the hit because a customer knowingly bought a product that they might have an issue with. The distros need to keep selling them, that is literally their business. If they just stop selling JJPs, they lose the customers who were going to buy and they lose JJP. And if JJP fixes all their issues before the next big game, they lose all that business too.

The distros want these issues to go away, but they can't risk their livelihood on taking that stance. The game buyers can take that stance no problem. There is no reason for them to buy the game other than it looks pretty and they want it.

Their service was bad before that. It was known they had problems. You believed them. You took the risk. They are wrong. But so are you.

The distro also sold a product knowing that not all their buyers cared. The chipping and pooling doesn't affect the game play. That is an issue the people who care. If you want to hurt them, don't buy from the distro. Then they are suck with stock they can't sell. But that isn't what happened. People bought them anyway. Bought them all. I'm not saying the distros are without blame. What I am saying is it isn't fair to burn them for a buyer's decision.

What you are basically saying is "This guy sold me a product that might have problems. I knew it might have problems when I bought it, but I did it anyway. But, he shouldn't have sold it to me, so it is his fault."

And it is possible not all buyers knew ahead of time, but most did. And for the ones who didn't, why should they be exempt? They made a $10,000K purchase without researching quality issues?

To state it again, I think JJP is bad here. I don't like the distro model. But the way to fix this is to stop buying the machines. Not to buy the machine and complain later. And definitely not to charge back to the middle man who didn't build your bad machine or deny your warranty claim.

Why? Why is the customer off the hook? If there is no proof the issue is fixed, why would anyone believe them? If this were some real world problem, I'd agree. But this isn't food, or medicine, or something people need. This isn't a regulated industry like that. This is an expensive toy. It is real easy to not buy it. To wait and see that the problems are solved. But buyers didn't want to do that. They wanted to take the risk. Why shouldn't they suffer from the risk? Pinball isn't an investment. There is no guarantee money won't be lost. And these machines aren't worthless. People still want them. They can still be played. They can still be sold.

Sell the machine. Take the loss of the risk that was made. Don't make the same mistake again.

Yeah, my line is basically non-existent. There is no chance of me buying a NIB JJP.

Changing the warranty is shitty, but putting down a deposit on something you haven't seen is a risk. That is what a deposit is. "I am putting down this money because I want to buy it when it is available. I want to make sure I get one so I am putting down this money to hold it even though I haven't actually seen what I am buying." That is accepting a risk when you give them the money. If you didn't want the risk, you didn't have to put down the money. You didn't need to buy the machine. You wanted it, that's fine. But you bought something without seeing it. That is a risk.

If your stance is that new playfields were shown and everyone thought it should be fine, how is the distro at fault at all? Why is it ok to fuck them now? Yes, they have the leverage to push back to JJP. So call them. Make it clear to them you won't buy any more JJP. Get lots of people to do that.

But how is it ok at all to burn them? Not liking the distro model is not a reason to hurt them to get your way. JJP is the problem.

They did change the amount of risk, but the risk was already there. The $1000 was what was risked. Once the purchase was made, the risk went up. And the option was to walk away losing $1000. Not that much in this hobby, certainly not if preordering a $10,000+ machine. Sure it sucks, but then you have none of these problems.

No. What I am saying is distributors shouldn't be punished for risks the buyers took. The distros took the risk when they bought from JJP. They get burned when people don't buy them. I don't think it is fair to buy from them knowing the risk and when you don't like it to burn them. I'll say it again, distributors are not the enemy here. They are the middlemen. If you bought direct from JJP, by all means charge that shit back. Had the distributor knowingly lied to you, I'd be one your side. But everyone knew the risks here.

People here aren't actually arguing that the distros are at fault. People are arguing that making the distros hurt will then hurt JJP. I think that is a very shitty thing to do.

You are talking in generalities. I am talking in specifics. The customer shouldn't always assume the risk. But in this instance, of an expensive toy from a company with known issues, the buyers knew the risk and made the purchase anyway. There is a reason carguments don't work. The markets aren't the same, the sizes of the companies aren't the same, the stakes aren't the same. If you buy a knew car, there is a knowledge that it will be highly tested and if something goes wrong, the car companies will have to correct it. Pinball isn't like that. The buyer assumes the risk because pinballs are fragile, mechanical toys. Things go wrong. Machines have wear. Machines break. Sometimes you lose money. That's how it goes.

Buyers know the track record too. Why should they not incur risks for their purchases? Why shouldn't they have to deal with it? Again, no one made you buy the game from the distributor. The distributor business model makes them buy the game because customers want it. Some can just stop selling JJP altogether, but not all distros can do that. For the most part distros aren't big businesses with large investor backing. Work with them to put the pain to JJP, don't fuck them over in the hopes it will hurt the people really responsible.

You are arguing things that sell exponentially many more items. Pinball is small and niche. It’s a completely different market.

If no one was buying them, yes. But people are buying them. ALL OF THEM. All these machines sell. Sometimes before pictures even come out. Distributors business is selling pinball machines. And buyers are buying them. If small distributors stop carrying JJP but others don’t, those others are going to make more money, gain more market, and possibly put the smaller distros out of business.

Distros should stop carrying JJP, but it’s real hard to do that without knowing other business will be there. And I don’t blame them at all for not relying on consumers to support them for their stance. The high-end pinball buying public isn’t filled with rationality. You can all say you don’t like JJP and people shouldn’t buy them. But you still did. You still bought GNR. And that’s my point.

If it’s crap, don’t buy it!!!

Again, I’m not saying a distributor has no responsibility. But the crux of this is people saying they should charge back credit card transactions to the distributors because JJP isn’t giving them the service they want. Trying to put their businesses in enough pain that they will deal with JJP. I think that’s a shitty thing to do to someone’s business given that the buyers knew going in that there were issues.

If someone didn’t like the risk, they shouldn’t have bought it. It’s that simple.

People complaining about cost cutting as if it’s a bad thing. Pinball machines are too damn expensive now, if companies can cut costs without actually affecting the gameplay. I’m all for it.

Especially with some of the changes they made that I actually prefer, like the lock down bar. I was really surprised when I heard people complain about it, I thought it was great the first time I got a machine that had one.

You aren’t wrong, and that’s the sad indictment of current pinball collecting. It’s a great game, but people don’t want it because it doesn’t have celebrities or blockbusters on it. Though if I’m being honest, I’m mostly happy about it because I was able to get one at a fair price because theme whores overlook it.

The SIM card shot really isn’t bad if you take the cliffy off and enjoy the machine as a toy and not a pristine collectors item.

It’s still a hard shot, it’s supposed to be. I’ll grant you it could definitely be better, but I don’t think it’s game breaking.

You just proved my point exactly. You like the rules and shots, you don’t like it only because of the theme.

Ok, you disagree with my snarky line, but the point remains the same. People let the theme keep them away from good games.

And that's what I'm mostly happy about. I'll gladly scoop up cheaper pins that people don't want because of theme. It doesn't matter to me.