Guns N' Roses (LE)
Jersey Jack, 2020You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider panzerfreak.
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Quoted from Oneangrymo:I want to say something... but at the same time I dont want to be on the JJP hit list, because I really want a BTTF CE.
Ugh.. maybe Im just a wuss. JJP please help the OP he sounds like a nice man... thanks.
JJP is making Back to the Future next? 
Huge JJP fan here but even I can admit that their customer service and warranty policies of late have been terrible. Recently read in the GNR owners group about a LE owner being told by JJP to go buy the post fix kit from Pinball Life versus JJP sending it out for free...ridiculous on a $10k+ pinball purchase of all things.
JJP will save money in the short term with these practices but in the long run they will lose as many of the affected customers will never return.
This is all a shame too as I still believe they are making the most loaded, deep, and fun pins out there.
Quoted from chuckwurt:Yeah I don’t think that would be the case at all. Maybe it pushed stern to get to LCD screens sooner, but that’s about it.
I got into pinball ownership along with lots of others shortly after WOZ came out, but I think it’s more to do with the resurgence of location pinball, and the generation that was raised by the golden age of pinball generation, getting pinball buying money.
You still never see JJPs on location ten plus years later. The increased demand put more money into sterns pockets, increasing budgets and the end product we see now is the result of that.
We got all those stripped down games because there was simply no money to get anything better. Stern would’ve folded long ago.
While I see more Sterns on location I certainly see JJP's as well. There's at least 3 locations around here that have JJP pins.
*Rant post
The bickering in this thread is almost as bad as the great WOZ Wars of 2013 - 2015 lol. Things got so bad with the personal attacks that mods stepped in and created the very first owners thread, that being for WOZ, where owners could discuss the game in peace.
There's a number of Stern super fans in this thread that love to regularly bash JJP . They often post blanket generalized statements that all JJP pins are bad and not fun. That is such an immature view with zero integrity behind it. All modern pinball is fun, there's really no terrible modern games, but for a select few on here they will relentlessly bash JJP. Personally I think it comes from a place of being pissed off that a new company one upped Stern when it came to offering customers more value for their money in regards to code, features, mechs, animation quality, etc. The type and amount of bashing against JJP is a way in their minds to justify how little Stern often puts in their games. Again, just my opinion.
These same JJP bashers will label me as a JJP fanboy who "bashes" Stern (bashing meaning providing criticism) yet I've bought multiple NIB Stern and JJP pins over the years. In a two month period I purchased a NIB TMNT Premium and a GNR Premium. The TMNT Premium is an awesome game and I've been happy with the build quality. However, I could tell the moment I opened the GNR LE box just how much more value I get for my money from a JJP product. From the packaging, to the head being made entirely of wood, to the amount of hardware components, the way the cabinets are made (finish, wood, etc), mechs, animation amount / quality, etc it's clear that JJP is putting more into their games. This doesn't mean Stern is bad or JJP is better, just an observation.
Regardless of how much JJP is putting into their games they need to step up their playfield build quality, customer service, and warranty. Creating fun, and loaded games means nothing if the most foundational item on a pin, the playfield, is screwed up. Also, downgrading warranties policies is a terrible look that basically states to customers "We don't stand behind are products". A company cannot market themselves as making the industries highest end pins with this type of playfield quality and warranty policies.
Quoted from chuckwurt:The cabinet issues had nothing to do with brackets. Those brackets don’t hold the cabinet together. Proper construction of the joints and glue does. Look at all the thousands of games that came before GB that didn’t have this issue, and didn’t use the WPC brackets.
They simply got a bad batch of cabinets from their vendor.
Did Stern change to using cheaper / small cabinet brackets at some point and after these issues made a bracket change? It's cost cutting changes like that that are disappointing to see at these all time record high prices. I swear Stern must have regularly quarter meetings about "What can we make cheaper next". Same goes for the exterior leg protectors, why are they plastic versus metal?
Like you said, it was probably the cabinet construction and lack of glue that caused those issues. I remember calling Stern about the cabinet issue years back before I ordered my Ghostbusters Premium. I was promptly told "There are no issues, some cabinets just didn't get enough glue". At least Stern sent out new cabinets for some people. If it was JJP they may have literally sent some glue and brackets over lol.
Video from Spida1a being sent a new Ghostbusters cabinet after a year of ownership. Now this is great customer service!
Quoted from mbwalker:Per a comment Gomez, the metal head is also an EMI enclosure. That's also the reason the power got moved in there too.
Makes sense but why can't Stern at least spend an extra $1 - $2 per game for some longer wire connected to a power switch in the traditional easily accessible location? Cost cutting at its worst.
Quoted from nicoy3k:What nonsense. Enjoy your game if you like playing it. Who gives a fuck if you have to sell your LE for 9k if you got a ton of enjoyment out of it? You are in this hobby to play pinball and have fun right? If you can’t afford to lose a bit of cash selling a game you bought new you’re in the wrong hobby. Historically you’ve always had to sell a used game for a good amount less than NIB price.
Don't feed the troll. He has one goal on this site and that's spreading misinformation and hate against JJP. I don't think he owns a single pin, let alone a JJP. His behavior is odd, bizarre, etc. Best to leverage the ignore feature and never read that nonsense again.
Loving my GNR and everything it has to offer, it's one hell of an amazing pin. I could care less if it goes up or down $500 like you said lol.
Quoted from YeOldPinPlayer:Please provide your evidence the switch placement is where it is due to a cost cutting decision.
1.The power button used to be in an easily accessible location.
2. The power button is no longer in an easily accessible location.
3. Stern could run some wire from the power supply and install a power switch at the traditional easily accessible location but choose not to.
This decision comes across as another cost cutting move along with the cheaper lock down bar latches, removal of the traditional head lock, 3/4 sheet metal head, cheaper cabinet brackets, plastic exterior cabinet protectors versus metal, and yes even cheaper tilt bobs...
Quoted from Deez:I recall Gomez addressing this in the video regarding the spike system. They removed all line voltage from the bottom cabinet and coin door which streamlined the UL approval process. They now will send you a cable that plugs into the power distribution board so you can run the line voltage to the coin door yourself for a bill validator. Overall I agree it was a cost saving measure but seems to be an overall good design in my mind. Especially since kids can no longer reach the power switch on my games and turn them off of route.
I didn't think about that from an operator perspective, that's a good point.
Quoted from John_I:Stern modernized their machines and eliminated the boat anchor transformer from the base cabinet in favor of a much more reliable system using a single voltage PC power supply in the head and DC-to-DC converters at the node boards. So 35 pounds of transformer and wiring are no longer in the base cabinet, the power enters the head directly and there is never any a/c power in the base cabinet unless you add a dollar bill changer. So it is more of a reliability and modernization than a cost cutting. Putting the power switch back where it used to be would be an added expense rather than one that was cut at this point. This also freed up space to mount the shaker over on the right side of the base cabinet instead of being completely cramped in where it used to be.
If it really bothers people the problem can be solved in 30 seconds for $13. Just plug the machine into a remote power controller and mount the remote under the cabinet with velcro where the button can be reached.
amazon.com link »I suppose they might be cheaper, but I like them better. In fact I will say that I like them a LOT better now that I have used them a while. They are more secure and a much simpler design. They don't need to be adjusted and don't allow the lock bar to slide around when someone gets a little rough with nudging. Why is this important? The old mechs allow the lock bar to slide forward and cut into the powder coating on the side rails. This was never a problem before games were all powder coated, but now a more secure system is needed. If it happens to cost less then win-win. I've seen that powder chipping on JJP, AP and Chicago games.
So they changed the lock and that is a problem? There is still a lock there and it still cost the same amount I would assume. I also really like the metal heads and the speaker panel that aims to the player for better sound, less reflection off the playfield glass and better view of the screen.
Once again I like the plastic better. If you can get past the fact that they are less expensive you will again notice that all of the legs and especially the LEs have powder coating now. The plastic doesn't dig in and chip the powder coating and start rust (in the Florida humidity). It also lets me feel a lot better about really tightening the leg bolts down, so the game plays good and firm without wobbling. As for the tilt bob's, I will take your word on them since you must be Stern's accountant, but I have never noticed that they work any less effectively than any other tilt bob.
You forgot to mention the removal of the coffin latch in favor of the mini-leg bolts to secure the head? Again something that cost less, but is a big upgrade to me. I hated those old latches and always lost or had the hex wrench stolen. Now one tool puts the legs on and secures the head too.
You also forgot to mention the that cabinets are now built like a brick shit house. Sterns from three years ago had cheap particle board bottoms and now are 3/4 birch plywood. No one is complaining about cracking any more either and that didn't come from cost cutting since the days of those flimsy cabinets. They also eliminated the playfield pegs on Pros a long time ago and went back to the more expensive rails. That was a cost cutting that failed and was corrected.
So every cost cutting move Stern has done is an upgrade...got it lol. "I like plastic better"...Maybe the cabinets should be plastic or sheet metal. Even if you like all of the cost cutting "upgrades" you should be asking yourself if Stern has passed those savings onto customers by means of keeping prices the same and or increasing features, code, and mechs in games? Doesn't seem like it, prices have gone up despite all of those changes.
How do you justify Stern's recent switch to using cheaper and lighter tilt bobs? The tilt bob in my TMNT Premium feels like it weighs half as much as the traditional tilt bob on Ghostbusters Premium. Why be so cheap and save money there of all places? Just another cost cutting move.
Quoted from John_I:LOL you are really reaching. Did you even read my post? I explained my opinions. The lighter tilt bob is so that it won't stay swinging so long. This is so you don't have to do the ear plug mod. Look it up sometime.
Back in the day I remember buying lots of cabinet protectors well I don't remember buying any of them made out of metal? Probably because they would cut into both the cabinet and the leg and defeat the purpose. Plastic is better than metal for this purpose I don't care if it cost less.
Regarding the tilt bob topic you said "As for the tilt bob's, I will take your word on them since you must be Stern's accountant, but I have never noticed that they work any less effectively than any other tilt bob".
Yes, they are cheaper. It's lighter so it won't stay swinging so long?! My goodness, tilt bobs have been made the same way for 50+ years with no complaints. Why change the design now? It's only to make them cheaper and save 5 cents a game, ridiculous. It's as if Stern has quarterly meetings to discuss "What can we make cheaper next". Side note, it's nice JJP ships their games with the tilt bob (traditional design of course) already installed and secured for shipping with a small piece of foam.
I'm sorry for the rant, the tilt bob change is really an upgrade! Now my game is 1 ounce lighter when I move it.
Earlier today I tried to return a brand new TV that wouldn't turn on out of the box. I was told "Sorry, we think you broke it", the store refused to take it back, and instead gave me a bag of capacitors as a fix kit.
Later that day I tried to send back a severely under cooked steak I ordered. The restaurant manager told me "You did that" and wouldn't take it back.
Finally I had to take my brand new truck into the dealership. It's just over 3 months old with 500 miles on it. There's a major flaw with the engine and I was told "That's your fault, you did it".
Damn, lol
Quoted from Palmer:I know what you mean. I cringe every time I think about the band call outs on GnR. Ugh. They really are the worst.
Says the guy who owns Avengers which has some of the worst callouts in pinball..."It's time to go binary". What does that even mean? In the words of Greg from SDTM when talking about Avengers "Callouts suck"! Callouts in GNR are pretty damn awesome thanks to actual band involvement.
Quoted from romulusx:This is from a guy that thinks GnR deserves a 4.75 and Revenge from Mars deserves a 8.85.Cmon man!
Zitt's doesn't seem to be a fan of JJP lol. He's also still bringing up the original light board issue? That was 8 years ago, time to get over it. WOZ was JJP's first game, they corrected the light board issue within a year (again 8 years ago lol), supported games with the original boards for well past warranty, and designed / released a 2.0 light board system for very early build games.
Quoted from paul_8788:From comicbook.com:
"Carol continued to fight alongside the Avengers, first as Warbird, then as Ms. Marvel, then taking on the Captain Marvel mantle. During her recovery, she discovered that she could absorb energy into herself and charge her DNA. If she absorbs enough energy she can regain her Binary form for short periods, doubling her power. Powering up this way is often referred to as 'going Binary.'"
You're welcome.
It finally makes sense, thank you! I'm sure Stern had their hands tied with the license. Thankfully the gameplay is a lot of fun.
Quoted from zaphX:Kinda proving the point there.
This community has some of the most negative toxic people on the internet, peppered with the occasional awesome person.
I just finally started leveraging the ignore feature, tried not to but I was tired of wasting my time arguing with people. Since then my time on Pinside has been much better. There's people out there that hate JJP for whatever reason and their opinions will never change. That's ok, I've accepted that, and I don't need to get worked up arguing with them any longer.
I'm happy to enjoy games from multiple companies. I used to be very critical of Stern for years but can't any longer as they have been kicking a**. A majority of their games are now more loaded (yes they cost more then years past), and their code support has made a complete 180 compared to years ago. When I play my TMNT Premium I can't deny that the game just feels good from the build quality to the mechs and gameplay.
Quoted from Colehvac1:I was smart enough to sell right away, next up pooling , chipping toy story. I still believe they will go under with the economic downturn thats coming. I also believe parts wont be available for Woz, hobbits and the such, those games will be unplayable pieces of art. Ask anyone that needs a power supply for An early WOZ, or light boards etc etc.
JJP is going out of business again? If I had a $1 for every time someone said that I would have enough cash to buy one of those $10,500 Stern LE's.
How in the world are people still getting parts for 20+ year old Bally Williams games? That can't be true.
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Verona, WI