Crestview, FL
I cleaned and waxed my Oct build WW today. It has over a 1,000 games on it but no chipping or pooling. I hate that people got crap playfields. It will be interesting to see how day 1 Toy Story playfields hold up.
(Topic ID: 297150)
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Guns N' Roses (LE)
Jersey Jack, 2020
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I have 5 JJP games with minimal to no playfield issues. I don’t think anything is holding me back from purchasinf Toy Story CE site unseen at this point but perhaps if this thread gets a few more bumps I may be paying 14k instead of 15.5K MSRP?
If you’re a seasoned pinball machine collector with the skills to work on your own games JJP is a small risk for you, but if this is a first time nib purchase i would never recommend a noob buy a JJP anything as their first.
Time will tell. Three fails in a row. Many have argued that the problems have been fixed with each successive game. Marco always has great excuses and offers entertaining legal threats.
This is an old rodeo, cowboys. Your positivity is appreciated, but it does not override facts.
Quoted from Sunsfan23:I have 5 JJP games with minimal to no playfield issues. I don’t think anything is holding me back from purchasing Toy Story
There is one bullet in the six shooter when you play Russian Roulette.
Quoted from Tranquilize:Time will tell. Three fails in a row. Many have argued that the problems have been fixed with each successive game. Marco always has great excuses and offers entertaining legal threats.
This is an old rodeo, cowboys. Your positivity is appreciated, but it does not override facts.
Unfortunately with JJP's lack of communication customers are left to guess if problems are resolved or not. My guess is they have tried to address the issue, but the lack of warranty and silence on the topic is pretty telling to me. I had very minor pooling on my POTC, and WW. In those two cases JJP provided new play fields free of charge, although not ideal I was satisfied. It now appears they are charging for shitty play fields ($500+) so thats a PASS on all future games for me. With all these massive price increases its not worth rolling the dice anymore.
Saint John, NB
Quoted from jfh:There is one bullet in the six shooter when you play Russian Roulette.
Haha, that’s a good one!
Quoted from hiker2099:It does make you wonder how so many people could have the thousands of dollars to buy a JJP but not to hire a lawyer and go after them when they get a bad playfield. Just wondering.
This post isn’t intended as legal advice but I will tell you litigation is expensive and in many cases consumer laws in various states don’t guarantee you legal fees if you win. Most lawyers wouldn’t take the case because they’d predict an outcome of legal bills which exceed any positive outcome and a positive outcome not guaranteed.
Many people who can afford $10k for a toy are more likely to eat a loss of $1-2k and just not do business with a company again I think. Just my guess on that.
Quoted from brainmegaphone:This post isn’t intended as legal advice but I will tell you litigation is expensive and in many cases consumer laws in various states don’t guarantee you legal fees if you win. Most lawyers wouldn’t take the case because they’d predict an outcome of legal bills which exceed any positive outcome and a positive outcome not guaranteed.
Many people who can afford $10k for a toy are more likely to eat a loss of $1-2k and just not do business with a company again I think. Just my guess on that.
I am sure that is the case. However, there has got to be a ridiculously wealthy person out there who could litigate or put together a class lawsuit. At the center of this question is...Companies who don't care (Only if they really don't care) do not change usually until legal fees are due. If a company does care (Likely the case here) but is not fixing the problem, usually snaps to action to fix the issue when they get the summons. I know the history of this issue just from reading all the posts about "Mirco" and such, just wonder why it hasn't been addressed legally.
Thanks for the response.
Quoted from hiker2099:I am sure that is the case. However, there has got to be a ridiculously wealthy person out there who could litigate or put together a class lawsuit. At the center of this question is...Companies who don't care (Only if they really don't care) do not change usually until legal fees are due. If a company does care (Likely the case here) but is not fixing the problem, usually snaps to action to fix the issue when they get the summons. I know the history of this issue just from reading all the posts about "Mirco" and such, just wonder why it hasn't been addressed legally.
Thanks for the response.
Most of the rich guys don't give a rat's ass. They are often the ones on here pumping up JJP. It's the guys that can't or don't want to afford the loss that are upset. It's a small problem in the world of courts and lawyers.
Quoted from hiker2099:I am sure that is the case. However, there has got to be a ridiculously wealthy person out there who could litigate or put together a class lawsuit. At the center of this question is...Companies who don't care (Only if they really don't care) do not change usually until legal fees are due. If a company does care (Likely the case here) but is not fixing the problem, usually snaps to action to fix the issue when they get the summons. I know the history of this issue just from reading all the posts about "Mirco" and such, just wonder why it hasn't been addressed legally.
Thanks for the response.
I’m not minimizing anyone’s issues - and I do not have experience with class action stuff - but it’s normally on a HUGE scale and law firms invest millions before getting paid on these claims (and take some that lose along the way). My best guess is nothing in pinball is on the scale of class action.
I can tell you from professional experience - a company’s reaction to a summons is often tied to the validity of the claim (with the occasional throwing the customer a bone because it’s cheaper than paying a lawyer to have it dismissed). I think sometimes people generally assume a lawsuit/summons gets more results than they often do. It’s very case/fact dependent and hard to generalize but someone has to be willing to put up the cash to see what happens.
In my state you’ll pay about $500 just to file a lawsuit and serve it in superior court. That’s just court fees. It’s a high price of admission if you also need to hire an attorney to write the claim.
Small claims is cheaper but a good lawyer on the other side can defend a small claims lawsuit very cheaply too.
For those reasons I think many people write off court fights as not worth the time and aggravation even in circumstances where they would likely win. I’m saying this generally in life not just pinball stuff.
Just trying to share some context to your questions and comments (which are all on point and understandable!)
Quoted from brainmegaphone:I’m not minimizing anyone’s issues - and I do not have experience with class action stuff - but it’s normally on a HUGE scale and law firms invest millions before getting paid on these claims (and take some that lose along the way). My best guess is nothing in pinball is on the scale of class action.
I can tell you from professional experience - a company’s reaction to a summons is often tied to the validity of the claim (with the occasional throwing the customer a bone because it’s cheaper than paying a lawyer to have it dismissed). I think sometimes people generally assume a lawsuit/summons gets more results than they often do. It’s very case/fact dependent and hard to generalize but someone has to be willing to put up the cash to see what happens.
In my state you’ll pay about $500 just to file a lawsuit and serve it in superior court. That’s just court fees. It’s a high price of admission if you also need to hire an attorney to write the claim.
Small claims is cheaper but a good lawyer on the other side can defend a small claims lawsuit very cheaply too.
For those reasons I think many people write off court fights as not worth the time and aggravation even in circumstances where they would likely win. I’m saying this generally in life not just pinball stuff.
Just trying to share some context to your questions and comments (which are all on point and understandable!)
This is all correct which is why it would take someone who is insanely wealthy. I am not saying it would work, I am saying no one has tried it and it is logical.
As several have stated it just makes no sense to file lawsuits. At the end of the day losing a couple grand on a game and not doing business with the company in the future is a safer course of action. I think JJP makes fun immersive games, and in the past I was ok paying a premium, because I felt the company would stand by their product. As we all know thats clearly not the case anymore. Even is this crazy market my guess is future titles won't sell that well at their current pricing structure (except for their limited CE versions). If they don't go crazy on CE pricing that will sell out fairly quickly. My guess is once they raised the price of GNR LE's that sales slowed dramatically.
Best case is you could sue them in small claims court, you would have to sue them in the jurisdiction that their offices are in. So some county in Illinois. Usually theres a limit on the amount you can sue for 5000 6000 somewhere in that neighborhood. I PMd with 10 other pinsiders that had GNRLE’s with playfield issues, one actually got the buyback we were all offered, its no coincidence that he was in Illinois 1-1/2 hours from JJP headquarters. If they were still in Jersey when it happened i would have filed a small claims case, but no way to sue someone in small claims court in Illinois when you live in NY.
Quoted from Colehvac1:Best case is you could sue them in small claims court, you would have to sue them in the jurisdiction that their offices are in. So some county in Illinois. Usually theres a limit on the amount you can sue for 5000 6000 somewhere in that neighborhood. I PMd with 10 other pinsiders that had GNRLE’s with playfield issues, one actually got the buyback we were all offered, its no coincidence that he was in Illinois 1-1/2 hours from JJP headquarters. If they were still in Jersey when it happened i would have filed a small claims case, but no way to sue someone in small claims court in Illinois when you live in NY.
Careful. What you wrote is not a correct statement of jurisdictional law. I would hate for someone to read that and think they could only sue in Illinois.
I understand what people are saying and they are all legitimate reasons. However, if JJP has made thousands and thousands of bad playfields, how has not one person sued them. People sue for loses all the time.
Even with a suit that is small, it stains the companies reputation legitimately and not just because a forum has tons of complaints.
Want real results, take real action.
Also want to mention, this is probably the most mature and respectable back and forth conversation on Pinside. Thanks. (Not Sarcasm)
Quoted from brainmegaphone:Careful. What you wrote is not a correct statement of jurisdictional law. I would hate for someone to read that and think they could only sue in Illinois.
Im not a lawyer, i only know in NY a consumer can sue a business in small claims court. Other than small claims any lawsuit would probably require a lawyer.
Quoted from Colehvac1:Im not a lawyer, i only know in NY a consumer can sue a business in small claims court. Other than small claims any lawsuit would probably require a lawyer.
I promise I’m not trying to one up you (but I’m really afraid this post may come off that way so please don’t take it that way). I can tell you that in most courts in the United States you can always represent yourself. The procedures and complexities make it difficult at best but you are not forbidden from going to court.
Quoted from hiker2099:I understand what people are saying and they are all legitimate reasons. However, if JJP has made thousands and thousands of bad playfields, how has not one person sued them. People sue for loses all the time.
*losses. Different word.
And it's probably because these are toys for enjoyment not cars or medical devices. And there's a reasonable remediation in the playfield offer.
Quoted from zaphX:*losses. Different word.
And it's probably because these are toys for enjoyment not cars or medical devices. And there's a reasonable remediation in the playfield offer.
LOL. Here's a bunch of labour for you and another mirco PF. LOL.
I know.. I know.. I shouldn't reply to zap, but he's so good at trolling.
Quoted from hiker2099:I understand what people are saying and they are all legitimate reasons. However, if JJP has made thousands and thousands of bad playfields, how has not one person sued them. People sue for loses all the time.
Even with a suit that is small, it stains the companies reputation legitimately and not just because a forum has tons of complaints.
Want real results, take real action.
Also want to mention, this is probably the most mature and respectable back and forth conversation on Pinside. Thanks. (Not Sarcasm)
The issue is also that most of the games are holding or raising in value. What kind of loss can people claim? I think the values should tank, but they don't. There's always another ZaphX in line to buy your junk JJP. 
Quoted from zaphX:*losses. Different word.
And it's probably because these are toys for enjoyment not cars or medical devices. And there's a reasonable remediation in the playfield offer.
That's a really good answer actually.
Quoted from Tranquilize:LOL. Here's a bunch of labour for you and another mirco PF. LOL.
I know.. I know.. I shouldn't reply to zap, but he's so good at trolling.The issue is also that most of the games are holding or raising in value. What kind of loss can people claim? I think the values should tank, but they don't. There's always another ZaphX in line to buy your junk JJP.
True.
Quoted from hiker2099:That's a really good answer actually.
I guess - if the PF's are offered by JJP for free. But you would still have to (or pay to) replace the PF in your machine. No small feat. Anyway, it if is a Mirco playfield replacement it may still be a crappy PF.
Hopefully they have corrected the issue going forward - but I feel bad for the Pirates, WW, and GnR owners (well the ones that care about having bad playfields - as we have seen, some don't care if they are bad or not).
Read the warranties from all Manufacturers. All are terrible.
There will be no successful lawsuits over this stuff. They don't cover any pooling or chipping or minor playfield wear, dimples, etc.
While some, in the past, have voluntarily made concessions for replacement unpopulated playfield replacements, or other fixes, I think those days are over.
Learn to live with it or don't buy games with shitty playfield production.
But, don't think anyone is going to successfully sue any of these manufacturers.
Quoted from zaphX:*losses. Different word.
And it's probably because these are toys for enjoyment not cars or medical devices. And there's a reasonable remediation in the playfield offer.
Well stated; however JJP isn't doing that anymore as they charging for replacement play fields
Zaph is in good company if he is a Troll . We trolls like to play pinball and shoot the sheet/
We enjoy playing the game more over being stuck in hate mode for the Crappy small amount of pooling we have around some posts .some chipping even.
But alas many Multiballs later i am still having a concert grade hair tingling great time playing it .
Do not feel ripped if i was to sell it either . wont lose a penny . Maybe even hang the new Crappy Brand new Sparkle Playfield up on a wall for that extra 500 plus shipping just to stare at it's beauty without them pooling chipping posts on it staring at me in the face..
And deny all my Pinball guests that have an LE and stand firm with no!. i will not sell this Crappy new Mirco PF for what 2k. fkn hell no.
I do not want you getting ripped off man!!! it will start pooling and chip and i took 2k from you ,never!!! it is just for show .\
To Show me how JJP did not stand behind this p.o.s Beauty of a playfield in the first place and charged me even more for having to get this new one with No help or funds to replace the first sheety one that was originally installed and failed within 200 plays .
Oh my ,we trolls deserve to be treated so unfairly because after being shot down by JJP time and time again on this Issue and only offered the PF at a Small cost ,we go back to doing what the game was delivered for / Playing ! /
Quoted from Tranquilize:LOL. Here's a bunch of labour for you and another mirco PF. LOL.
I know.. I know.. I shouldn't reply to zap, but he's so good at trolling.
Quoted from Goronic:as we have seen, some don't care if they are bad or not).
pretty sure we all care , But after all the customers and all the Pinside hate JJP has only offered what they did. And not Sure a ONE Was sent out yet .
I would like to know the status of when we can expect to get them ? Good or bad !
Quoted from PinFever:Zaph is in good company if he is a Troll . We trolls like to play pinball and shoot the sheet/
We enjoy playing the game more over being stuck in hate mode for the Crappy small amount of pooling we have around some posts .some chipping even.
But alas many Multiballs later i am still having a concert grade hair tingling great time playing it .
Do not feel ripped if i was to sell it either . wont lose a penny . Maybe even hang the new Crappy Brand new Sparkle Playfield up on a wall for that extra 500 plus shipping just to stare at it's beauty without them pooling chipping posts on it staring at me in the face..
And deny all my Pinball guests that have an LE and stand firm with no!. i will not sell this Crappy new Mirco PF for what 2k. fkn hell no.
I do not want you getting ripped off man!!! it will start pooling and chip and i took 2k from you ,never!!! it is just for show .\
To Show me how JJP did not stand behind this p.o.s Beauty of a playfield in the first place and charged me even more for having to get this new one with No help or funds to replace the first sheety one that was originally installed and failed within 200 plays .
Oh my ,we trolls deserve to be treated so unfairly because after being shot down by JJP time and time again on this Issue and only offered the PF at a Small cost ,we go back to doing what the game was delivered for / Playing ! /pretty sure we all care , But after all the customers and all the Pinside hate JJP has only offered what they did. And not Sure a ONE Was sent out yet .
I would like to know the status of when we can expect to get them ? Good or bad !
It takes years of practice to achieve Zaphx-level JJP troll status. You need to hug nuts way tighter and lose some logic. You're showing promise though, grasshopper!
Quoted from Tranquilize:It takes years of practice to achieve Zaphx-level JJP troll status. You need to hug nuts way tighter and lose some logic. You're showing promise though, grasshopper!
You three, ( you plus PinFever
zaphX ) could start a band and call yourselves the Bee Zees, Brothers Zaphx
lol
https://ag.state.il.us/consumers/smlclaims.html
I read this info, it appears to be similar to new york, go to the clerk, get some paperwork, fill it out, bring it back, pay a filing fee, last time i did this in NY it was 25.00. Then you get a court date. From my experience you should always have an expert witness, then its up to the judge. It would be a bad idea for JJP to just send a lawyer. This is too much trouble unless you got a bug up your ass and want to make a point, i chose to just sell mine and be done.
Quoted from Tranquilize:Most of the rich guys don't give a rat's ass. They are often the ones on here pumping up JJP. It's the guys that can't or don't want to afford the loss that are upset. It's a small problem in the world of courts and lawyers.
?? no offense but if you can afford a pinball machine at all you are to a degree "rich"
Quoted from TheLaw:Wake up Mikey you gotta pick a damn side these days!
Mikey like everyone! 
Quoted from TheLaw:No dog in the fight but technically he's a shill, not a troll.
Good point. I need to get my vocabulary straight - again!
Quoted from PinFever:Zaph is in good company if he is a Troll . We trolls like to play pinball and shoot the sheet/
We enjoy playing the game more over being stuck in hate mode for the Crappy small amount of pooling we have around some posts .some chipping even.
But alas many Multiballs later i am still having a concert grade hair tingling great time playing it .
Do not feel ripped if i was to sell it either . wont lose a penny . Maybe even hang the new Crappy Brand new Sparkle Playfield up on a wall for that extra 500 plus shipping just to stare at it's beauty without them pooling chipping posts on it staring at me in the face..
And deny all my Pinball guests that have an LE and stand firm with no!. i will not sell this Crappy new Mirco PF for what 2k. fkn hell no.
I do not want you getting ripped off man!!! it will start pooling and chip and i took 2k from you ,never!!! it is just for show .\
To Show me how JJP did not stand behind this p.o.s Beauty of a playfield in the first place and charged me even more for having to get this new one with No help or funds to replace the first sheety one that was originally installed and failed within 200 plays .
Oh my ,we trolls deserve to be treated so unfairly because after being shot down by JJP time and time again on this Issue and only offered the PF at a Small cost ,we go back to doing what the game was delivered for / Playing ! /pretty sure we all care , But after all the customers and all the Pinside hate JJP has only offered what they did. And not Sure a ONE Was sent out yet .
I would like to know the status of when we can expect to get them ? Good or bad !
pasted_image (resized).pngQuoted from TheLaw:No dog in the fight but technically he's a shill, not a troll.
I think you may need to moderate yourself. Be nice!
Quoted from TheLaw:Shill is much better than a troll; so it was being nice.
So don't be such a tool.
Its clear if you moderated youself you would have nothing to say.
It will be interesting to see what the replacement playfields are like. Good to go, or some with issues still. Mirco seems to be very quiet lately. Seems like all the playfield manufacturers are very tight (secret) about what uv inkjet equipment they are using. What type of sealer or finish clear coats.
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