San Tan Valley, AZ
Quoted from Yelobird:Dam your posts are more impressive each day. 100% agreed.
Yes, I upvoted it as well... seems Crazy and I can agree on somethings... just not paragraph markers. 
CrazyLevi
(Topic ID: 297150)
Linked Games
Guns N' Roses (LE)
Jersey Jack, 2020
Topic Gallery
Quoted from Kkoss24:I meant I won’t be in any JJP threads except this one If anyone’s interested these will be for sale in the parking lot at Expo this year !Enjoy the day fellas .
[quoted image]
I would buy 2 of these and gladly pay shipping. Love wearing them to pinball events close to me.
Please say you will ship 
Quoted from woody76:exactly. distros know the JJP track record and still decide to sell this crap then they will have to deal with the problems as well.
Buyers know the track record too. Why should they not incur risks for their purchases? Why shouldn't they have to deal with it? Again, no one made you buy the game from the distributor. The distributor business model makes them buy the game because customers want it. Some can just stop selling JJP altogether, but not all distros can do that. For the most part distros aren't big businesses with large investor backing. Work with them to put the pain to JJP, don't fuck them over in the hopes it will hurt the people really responsible.
Quoted from porkcarrot:Buyers know the track record too. Why should they not incur risks for their purchases? Why shouldn't they have to deal with it? Again, no one made you buy the game from the distributor. The distributor business model makes them buy the game because customers want it. Some can just stop selling JJP altogether, but not all distros can do that. For the most part distros aren't big businesses with large investor backing. Work with them to put the pain to JJP, don't fuck them over in the hopes it will hurt the people really responsible.
Your argument makes absolutely No sense no matter how many times you preach it. If your buying a car, a plant, or a bottle of ketchup your contract and grievance is with the distributor. Be that the Ford dealer, Home Depot, or Walmart. They accepted the terms of being the broker for the product and if they choose to keep repping said product that is their business choice. That is who we paid and that is who should sort it out or change their business partner.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:The entire industry is!!!
Basically, we've taken pinball - a 100 year old industry - and completely changed the parameters overnight. Until 10 years ago, it was still basically an operator/commercial business, and the consumers never really cared about this minutia that drives home buyers absolutely insane. As long as it coined up and worked they were happy, and if it didn't, they were used to making small adjustments here and there. I'd guess "warranty claims" - if they even existed - were few and far between, and quickly and easily taken care of by distributors. Nobody was demanding new playfields or cabinet decals in 1995.
Now of course, it's suddenly a home item for a niche but still rapidly growing crowd, and nobody knows how to deal with it. Home buyers are far more demanding and exacting than commercial buyers (and their dads, and their grandads) ever were. At the same time the industry has completely shifted its focus on who they are marketing to - when was the last time you saw a pinball promo touting it's "earning power" or the many "industry firsts that keep players paying?" It's been years.
I don't know how it's gonna shake out but it's been a rocky road and I don't see it getting smoother. Home consumers want an "appliance" akin to a toaster or VCR, and pinball just ain't never gonna be that - it's ALWAYS gonna be far less reliable and consistent and complicated than the other consumer goods people are used to buying while being far more expensive. Can't blame the industry for going where the money is but we are in uncharted waters here!
But I want my rich, thick, creamy clear so when people come over they will be impressed. Just the other day I was about to score with a total babe but once she saw my unsightly dimples the night was ruined.
BOGUS
Quoted from porkcarrot:but not all distros can do that
Why not?
They would if no one was buying them. They would if the problems become so great that it caused a loss in revenue as apposed to a profit. There are plenty of other games to sell.
I purchase my GNR from a distro locally. I don’t see how you can fault them for selling something many people wanted. What we did not want was lack of response to a playfield issue. I do not expect JJP to put out any populated play fields and i will be holding onto my GNR as i do enjoy it but hard pass on future titles till they resolve manufacturing issues. My distro has been straight up with me since all this is coming out and JJP is putting them all in a tough spot. Plus not to hard to hold out for next game as CGC going to be putting out games soon so no loss
Quoted from Hazoff:Why not?
They would if no one was buying them. They would if the problems become so great that it caused a loss in revenue as apposed to a profit. There are plenty of other games to sell.
And more so wouldn’t many actually respect their favorite distributor More if they said “hell no we stopped selling those til the OEM gets their shit together!” I know they would have my future business.
Quoted from Yelobird:Your argument makes absolutely No sense no matter how many times you preach it. If your buying a car, a plant, or a bottle of ketchup your contract and grievance is with the distributor. Be that the Ford dealer, Home Depot, or Walmart. They accepted the terms of being the broker for the product and if they choose to keep repping said product that is their business choice. That is who we paid and that is who should sort it out or change their business partner.
You are arguing things that sell exponentially many more items. Pinball is small and niche. It’s a completely different market.
Quoted from porkcarrot:You are arguing things that sell exponentially many more items. Pinball is small and niche. It’s a completely different market.
Come on your reaching now. A product is a product. If it’s crap don’t sell it.
Quoted from Hazoff:Why not?
They would if no one was buying them. They would if the problems become so great that it caused a loss in revenue as apposed to a profit. There are plenty of other games to sell.
If no one was buying them, yes. But people are buying them. ALL OF THEM. All these machines sell. Sometimes before pictures even come out. Distributors business is selling pinball machines. And buyers are buying them. If small distributors stop carrying JJP but others don’t, those others are going to make more money, gain more market, and possibly put the smaller distros out of business.
Distros should stop carrying JJP, but it’s real hard to do that without knowing other business will be there. And I don’t blame them at all for not relying on consumers to support them for their stance. The high-end pinball buying public isn’t filled with rationality. You can all say you don’t like JJP and people shouldn’t buy them. But you still did. You still bought GNR. And that’s my point.
Quoted from Yelobird:Come on your reaching now. A product is a product. If it’s crap don’t sell it.
If it’s crap, don’t buy it!!!
I’m learning a lot about how things were in the past thanks to all .Just for the record ,I like the distro I went through for this pin and have zero issues with him .I also understand how legal matters work so in all honesty the way things are set up I probably won’t be compensated with a swap of populated playfield because I wouldn’t accept that if it was coming out of the distros pocket .Not when the 90 day warranty is sent with the machine and reads JJP on it and have proof of contact prior to that date .I was going to go with the flow until I read a couple of posts stating “They’ll weather the storm and sell out the next pin “.I agree there’s a possibility of that happening but then again who the fuck knows .I’ve “givin up” on things like this in the past because mostly it wasn’t worth the time .Something clicked though .If nothing is done it will be the same ole.The Tshirt thing is no BS ,my good friends family has been a licensed vendor in the chicagoland area for 40 years I know how shit works in this town .Whether or not I want to spend the energy I do not know right now .If I hear from enough of you I absolutly will because this is not about just me .As always get out ,enjoy the day n play your pins
Quoted from Elvishasleft:Important to note that you are talking about Am Ex and their higher end cards...
Regular credit card companies arent going to have the same benefits or service.
Am Ex is great but you pay for it.... your regular bank credit card isnt going to do shit for you.
True...my AMEX platinum has paid for itself over and over for me in business land. Granted, some companies don't take it as it's an extra point and are fully aware of their consumer protection.
I buy and auto draft alot through them....points, extended warranties, and " innocent until guilty" regarding consumer. Card is credited in full immediately, and they do all the work verifying what happened with 1 easy call. Highly recommend if a large purchase of any type is involved.
Play by the rules and you'll never go back..
Quoted from MK6PIN:True...my AMEX platinum has paid for itself over and over for me in business land. Granted, some companies don't take it as it's an extra point and are fully aware of their consumer protection.
I buy and auto draft alot through them....points, extended warranties, and " innocent until guilty" regarding consumer. Card is credited in full immediately, and they do all the work verifying what happened with 1 easy call. Highly recommend if a large purchase of any type is involved.
And you get into some airline club lounges at no cost when traveling
Quoted from MK6PIN:True...my AMEX platinum has paid for itself over and over for me in business land. Granted, some companies don't take it as it's an extra point and are fully aware of their consumer protection.
I buy and auto draft alot through them....points, extended warranties, and " innocent until guilty" regarding consumer. Card is credited in full immediately, and they do all the work verifying what happened with 1 easy call. Highly recommend if a large purchase of any type is involved.
Play by the rules and you'll never go back..
And you can make washers out of the expired ones. Win/Win
Sydney
Quoted from porkcarrot:No. What I am saying is distributors shouldn't be punished for risks the buyers took. The distros took the risk when they bought from JJP. They get burned when people don't buy them. I don't think it is fair to buy from them knowing the risk and when you don't like it to burn them. I'll say it again, distributors are not the enemy here. They are the middlemen. If you bought direct from JJP, by all means charge that shit back. Had the distributor knowingly lied to you, I'd be one your side. But everyone knew the risks here.
People here aren't actually arguing that the distros are at fault. People are arguing that making the distros hurt will then hurt JJP. I think that is a very shitty thing to do.
What value is the distributor giving to justify his profit margin?
Quoted from porkcarrot:But people are buying them. ALL OF THEM. All these machines sell.
Yeah and if the distributor wants to continue to sell them then they have to deal with the repercussions. Personally I wouldn't care about some PF chipping (with in reason of course" I've had it on a couple Sterns. Its not a big deal for me. But for many at these prices who can blame them for holding the distributor responsible for delivering on refunds or replacements etc.
Quoted from porkcarrot:Distros should stop carrying JJP, but it’s real hard to do that without knowing other business will be there.
There's plenty of other business to do. Stern falling apart could have an impact for a Pin distro company but the others including JJP are all boutique and could easily disappear.
Quoted from Hazoff:Yeah and if the distributor wants to continue to sell them then they have to deal with the repercussions. Personally I wouldn't care about some PF chipping (with in reason of course" I've had it on a couple Sterns. Its not a big deal for me. But for many at these prices who can blame them for holding the distributor responsible for delivering on refunds or replacements etc.
There's plenty of other business to do. Stern falling apart could have an impact for a Pin distro company but the others including JJP are all boutique and could easily disappear.
Again, I’m not saying a distributor has no responsibility. But the crux of this is people saying they should charge back credit card transactions to the distributors because JJP isn’t giving them the service they want. Trying to put their businesses in enough pain that they will deal with JJP. I think that’s a shitty thing to do to someone’s business given that the buyers knew going in that there were issues.
If someone didn’t like the risk, they shouldn’t have bought it. It’s that simple.
Quoted from porkcarrot:If someone didn’t like the risk, they shouldn’t have bought it. It’s that simple.
Sorry but the risk lies with the seller. I don't know want kind of guarantee the distributor offered but...............................Oh no, wait. I don't care anymore. 
Quoted from MK6PIN:True...my AMEX platinum has paid for itself over and over for me in business land. Granted, some companies don't take it as it's an extra point and are fully aware of their consumer protection.
I buy and auto draft alot through them....points, extended warranties, and " innocent until guilty" regarding consumer. Card is credited in full immediately, and they do all the work verifying what happened with 1 easy call. Highly recommend if a large purchase of any type is involved.
Play by the rules and you'll never go back..
Yah not to give people ideas but I bought an OLED tv on a Platinum card...
It had issues and they came and fixed it and then more issues came up and LG refused to fix it again. I asked AmEx to step in...
End of day AmEx paid me off for the TV (this was when they were a few grand) and said go get a new one.
I got it fixed locally and pocketed the rest... free TV pretty much, still works.
Quoted from Elvishasleft:Yah not to give people ideas but I bought an OLED tv on a Platinum card...
It had issues and they came and fixed it and then more issues came up and LG refused to fix it again. I asked AmEx to step in...
End of day AmEx paid me off for the TV (this was when they were a few grand) and said go get a new one.
I got it fixed locally and pocketed the rest... free TV pretty much, still works.
Well American Express just posted great earnings and the stock jumped big time so your little grifter move didn't impact them much Elvis! Lol
Thankfully, i've never had to use mine that way but if i did that's why i have it.
Quoted from iceman44:Well American Express just posted great earnings and the stock jumped big time so your little grifter move didn't impact them much Elvis! Lol
Thankfully, i've never had to use mine that way but if i did that's why i have it.
Well it wasnt intended as a grift. 
If I couldn't get it fixed I would have just bought a new one. I dont think they cared either way...
I had a legit claim and went through all the hoops and they agreed with me (that LG warranty support sucked) and paid me off.
Could this work with pinball?? I suppose.
Quoted from iceman44:Well American Express just posted great earnings and the stock jumped big time so your little grifter move didn't impact them much Elvis! Lol
Thankfully, i've never had to use mine that way but if i did that's why i have it.
Yep.....not a company to screw with....I buy ALOT of monitors and displays....once in awhile, I'll get a shipment w no exterior damage, but displays destroyed inside....concealed damage. Fighting a freight company and the manufacturer can be impossible to recover the $$$. W AMEX it's over w 1 call.
No way I'd risk my relationship w them...stay in the lines and life is very good....
Quoted from Elvishasleft:Could this work with pinball?? I suppose.
If the product is proven defective under warranty it would 100% work.
They do the work w your $$$ back in your account instantly.
The key is if you caused the damage or they decide the claim is fraudulent, charges go right back and kiss the card goodbye.
Never needed it w a Pin, but my $$$ on AMEX if the games warranty isn't honored or proven defects..
Quoted from CrazyLevi:The entire industry is!!!
Basically, we've taken pinball - a 100 year old industry - and completely changed the parameters overnight. Until 10 years ago, it was still basically an operator/commercial business, and the consumers never really cared about this minutia that drives home buyers absolutely insane. As long as it coined up and worked they were happy, and if it didn't, they were used to making small adjustments here and there. I'd guess "warranty claims" - if they even existed - were few and far between, and quickly and easily taken care of by distributors. Nobody was demanding new playfields or cabinet decals in 1995.
Now of course, it's suddenly a home item for a niche but still rapidly growing crowd, and nobody knows how to deal with it. Home buyers are far more demanding and exacting than commercial buyers (and their dads, and their grandads) ever were. At the same time the industry has completely shifted its focus on who they are marketing to - when was the last time you saw a pinball promo touting it's "earning power" or the many "industry firsts that keep players paying?" It's been years.
I don't know how it's gonna shake out but it's been a rocky road and I don't see it getting smoother. Home consumers want an "appliance" akin to a toaster or VCR, and pinball just ain't never gonna be that - it's ALWAYS gonna be far less reliable and consistent and complicated than the other consumer goods people are used to buying while being far more expensive. Can't blame the industry for going where the money is but we are in uncharted waters here!
CrazyLevi I love your posts, and agree with them 99% of the time. If you had a newsletter, I'd sign up... But you are off the mark here...
I would agree with your assessment Pinball machines are--and contine to be--commercial machines... however I would disagree with the premise that JJP problems are simply exacting home users complaining about issues that existed in the 90's when the market was different...
In a HUO environment, my GNR (March 2021 build) had pooling chipping on five posts sub 100 plays, and chipped on the apron (visible, the PF bolt point on the apron top). These are not hallmarks of a machine built to withstand the rigors of a commercial environment. NONE of my other games, in 20 years of collecting modern and classic machines have had these issues. While I acknowledge there are certainly anectdotal examples of individual historical problems with other games/manufacturers--there is nothing I am aware of that compares to the scale of problems that I hear about with GNR.
Maybe ops weren't demanding things in the 90s because they weren't issues? JJP GNR is a superb game. The build quality is not.
As to the nature of problems with FAR Part 12 throughout the supply chain, makes the use of quality more important to consumers, btob and gtob. Push more industry’s into FAR Part 30 & 31 through CAS using performance based objectives such as quality. Tie flow down into particular industries. Ripples should help capitalism help itself. Watch for idiots saying #ruleoflaw (<——flaw). Watch the FAR Part 3.
Quoted from c818919taylor:As to the nature of problems with FAR Part 12 throughout the supply chain, makes the use of quality more important to consumers, btob and gtob. Push more industry’s into FAR Part 30 & 31 through CAS using performance based objectives such as quality. Tie flow down into particular industries. Ripples should help capitalism help itself. Watch for idiots saying #ruleoflaw (<——flaw). Watch the FAR Part 3.
Well said.
Quoted from Haymaker:Dude...between Wonka and GNR we were all shown this magic new Mirco playfield technology that was supposed to fix all the playfield issues. Buyers had no reason not to think issues were going to be solved. Distributors have all the leverage against manufacturers. How many times have you heard the story that it took going to a distributor to get somebodies issue taken care of? It happens constantly. If distros are getting burned because of JJP's bad quality, they are the ones who can force JJP's hand.
Must have worked. I have a late run Wonka SE and the playfield is perfect
Quoted from CrazyLevi:The entire industry is!!!
Basically, we've taken pinball - a 100 year old industry - and completely changed the parameters overnight. Until 10 years ago, it was still basically an operator/commercial business, and the consumers never really cared about this minutia that drives home buyers absolutely insane. As long as it coined up and worked they were happy, and if it didn't, they were used to making small adjustments here and there. I'd guess "warranty claims" - if they even existed - were few and far between, and quickly and easily taken care of by distributors. Nobody was demanding new playfields or cabinet decals in 1995.
Now of course, it's suddenly a home item for a niche but still rapidly growing crowd, and nobody knows how to deal with it. Home buyers are far more demanding and exacting than commercial buyers (and their dads, and their grandads) ever were. At the same time the industry has completely shifted its focus on who they are marketing to - when was the last time you saw a pinball promo touting it's "earning power" or the many "industry firsts that keep players paying?" It's been years.
I don't know how it's gonna shake out but it's been a rocky road and I don't see it getting smoother. Home consumers want an "appliance" akin to a toaster or VCR, and pinball just ain't never gonna be that - it's ALWAYS gonna be far less reliable and consistent and complicated than the other consumer goods people are used to buying while being far more expensive. Can't blame the industry for going where the money is but we are in uncharted waters here!
Bullseye!!
Quoted from c818919taylor:As to the nature of problems with FAR Part 12 throughout the supply chain, makes the use of quality more important to consumers, btob and gtob. Push more industry’s into FAR Part 30 & 31 through CAS using performance based objectives such as quality. Tie flow down into particular industries. Ripples should help capitalism help itself. Watch for idiots saying #ruleoflaw (<——flaw). Watch the FAR Part 3.
Reverend!
Quoted from BallLocks:Maybe ops weren't demanding things in the 90s because they weren't issues?
More like they didn't care. Get the game on location and make money, not only were things usually broken to some degree but the PF was dirty and people beat the hell out them. Smoke ridden environments and spilled drinks, all kinds of abuse. I agree for these prices and for collectors its unacceptable but believe me the 90's stuff was far from perfect. It depends on the buyer as well. A lot of people want perfection, some don't care at all with everything in between.
Yeah… I can’t say I’ll be buying another JJP game in the future NIB at least.
Hobbit is a tank and gorgeous. I don’t think it’s debatable at this point that Hobbit is their best game considering reliability.
I’ve been lucky so far with my GnR, and it really is an amazing game but clearly there are some issues that haven’t been addressed 100% by JJP.
The market being so white hot is probably a big reason why there are quality control issues. Companies are pumping games out as fast as they can to meet the demand.
Quoted from greeneye:I don’t think it’s debatable at this point that Hobbit is their best game considering reliability.
The one on location near me has the playfield lights locking up frequently. Requires a power cycle to reset. Beast mechs always have at least one of the four not working.
Overall I don't think it's a reliable table.
Quoted from greeneye:I don’t think it’s debatable at this point that Hobbit is their best game considering reliability
Its debatable alright. I'd rather have an unreliable DI than Hobbit.
Quoted from greeneye:The market being so white hot is probably a big reason why there are quality control issues.
Nope.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Also pinball machines don't have bumpers.
According to jjp they do .
Although these days who knows what's covered
IMG_20210724_233644 (resized).jpgQuoted from BallLocks:CrazyLevi I love your posts, and agree with them 99% of the time. If you had a newsletter, I'd sign up... But you are off the mark here...
I would agree with your assessment Pinball machines are--and contine to be--commercial machines... however I would disagree with the premise that JJP problems are simply exacting home users complaining about issues that existed in the 90's when the market was different...
In a HUO environment, my GNR (March 2021 build) had pooling chipping on five posts sub 100 plays, and chipped on the apron (visible, the PF bolt point on the apron top). These are not hallmarks of a machine built to withstand the rigors of a commercial environment. NONE of my other games, in 20 years of collecting modern and classic machines have had these issues. While I acknowledge there are certainly anectdotal examples of individual historical problems with other games/manufacturers--there is nothing I am aware of that compares to the scale of problems that I hear about with GNR.
Maybe ops weren't demanding things in the 90s because they weren't issues? JJP GNR is a superb game. The build quality is not.
I think the idea is that cosmetic flaws did not stop a game from earning in the past. How many ops would of demanded new parts or refund for paint chip on apron?
Quoted from jawjaw:I think the idea is that cosmetic flaws did not stop a game from earning in the past. How many ops would of demanded new parts or refund for paint chip on apron?
0. They knew how to fix things themselves and considered the machines as for earning, not staring at.
Quoted from screaminr:According to jjp they do .
Although these days who knows what's covered[quoted image]
Sorry but that is the old warranty. Now its just circuit boards and monitor. Nothing else and non transferable. That's how I read it at least. This is in the current GnR manual right off of JJP website today:
JJP Warranty 3 2021 (resized).pngQuoted from CrazyLevi:I'd guess "warranty claims" - if they even existed - were few and far between, and quickly and easily taken care of by distributors. Nobody was demanding new playfields or cabinet decals in 1995.
Yes, but games weren't $12,000 back then....
Quoted from gjm7777:a total babe but once she saw my unsightly dimples the night was ruined
On the machine, right? 
Quoted from Sako-TRG:I wonder how morale is holding up at the JJP factory?
Imagine fitting the PF thinking, this is dogshit!
Perhaps they just act like zombies, cocooning themselves to the outdoor shitstorm
I don't think Maria on minimum wage gives a shit how these playfields holdup long-term .
She's probably thinking about how she can stop Jose’ getting mixed up with the gang's and paying her rent .
Quoted from John_I:Sorry but that is the old warranty. Now its just circuit boards and monitor. Nothing else and non transferable. That's how I read it at least. This is in the current GnR manual right off of JJP website today:[quoted image]
Yes I know , that's why I said , who knows what it covers these days .
Thanks for letting me know what the new warranty is .
Quoted from AMSNL:New paper per 1 April (no joke) send/included on all JJP EU games
[quoted image]
Thats a nice shut up you f-ing babies letter.
They do have a point though... its a cheap ass piece of plywood with a metal ball flying around on it.
Thats no excuse for some of the chipping issues etc but the dimpling and super nit picky I look at every thing with a flashlight and microscope shit is too much.
Quoted from AMSNL:New paper per 1 April (no joke) send/included on all JJP EU games
[quoted image]
What a joke. In other words, we make our games with inferior products and expect these things to happen with a steel ball.
Quoted from Elvishasleft:Thats a nice shut up you f-ing babies letter.
They do have a point though... its a cheap ass piece of plywood with a metal ball flying around on it.
Thats no excuse for some of the chipping issues etc but the dimpling and super nit picky I look at every thing with a flashlight and microscope shit is too much.
There are definitely some people that think a pinball machine is not to be touched. It's a static museum piece that should remain perfectly shiny and free from any imperfections.
The rest of us play the games and they get a bit dirty... scratched... banged up... weathered...
But to each their own! If you want a perfectly flawless pinball and JJP isn't delivering the goods then by all means let them know.
Personally I think JJP should just rebrand themselves as Kintsgui Pinball : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kintsugi
Crazi's post is spot on, but one does have to wonder, if pinball prices weren't 2-3 times what they were 'in the old days' if there'd be less complaining. People expect collector quality because they are PAYING collector quality prices. I realize back then everything cost less in general, but those devices were made to make money back and get beat up. If you are going to charge a premium and know that your market has changed, expect people to actually want premium. If you aren't willing to back your product, you are just going to drive yourself out of a job eventually. Do you want to make a legacy, or are you just in it for a quick buck?
When you collect double the pricing as opposed to years ago and sell to a discriminating buyer paying those prices you better damn well be ready for the complaints and corrections.
I worked for a base car line and they went from cheap eco-cars priced at $6000 new and two models to 15 models today and $55k+ for some, base models starting at $15k.
Warranty and service reflect that mindset. Picky people and they are getting major and minor shit covered everyday. No oil changes for 20,000 miles? engine blew up? Sorry, here's a free engine and a free rental until done.
Eat it JJP. Eat it all up. You wanted to sell high end pinball machines? Better start owning it all. I am out on JJP, it's a shit company now and that warranty is an insult.
Promoted items from Pinside Marketplace and Pinside Shops!
Reply
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Hey there! Welcome to Pinside!
Donate to PinsideGreat to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
