It was my game of the year for like 8 months.

I was at arcade and played every new Stern game (except AIQ) but everything (many LE) and I own SW premium so I like Stern games (I have 6 of them) but the new games just feel/look a bit cheaper than the SAM games (TWD, Metallica, SM etc) still great games but they feel/look the same and to me I can not believe Stern is getting $9K for the new LEs when STLE was so much more robust feeling and had a lot more features in the LE and even ST premium had powder coated armor.

My friend had left his EHOH at my house while he was moving it was nearly brand new and I put a hundred (plus) games on it. It's a great pin but it doesn't feel anything more special and the JJP and CGC games to me feel more solid.

Yes you can, you know the clientele.

Sure, guys say "If it's Jaws that's an instabuy" or if it's BTTF or Goonies etc..

I am always like why the heck? what if it's a dud of a game?

I do own SW and I love it the theme is perfect but it is the gameplay/rules that got me to buy it.

Ha i saw someone post the other day a machine was an instabuy if it had a song in it.
Fuck, I wish I had thst kind of cash

I think we've reached the unanimous conclusion the GnR looks f'n fantastic in terms of visual design. In pinball, it's great to have a looker. How it flips can be an entirely different story. So saying one machine makes another machine look like a cheap toy is fair, but real pinheads know looks aren't what give a game soul. It's all the things the pinball can do and how the code reacts. That's why JP2 is a contender for GoaT, and why I'd vote AIQ.
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To answer Aurich’s question about the art, and I know that the artist is a Pinsider and I have always loved his stuff but you know how they make some books and videos and whatnot for adults or older kids and then they make a version for younger children? This is exactly wha t the art on Avengers brings to mind. The small child’s version.

I assume ZY had to work off a style guide to get things approved by Marvel, so maybe the material he was working with was like that. Or maybe it was his call, or Stern's, I have no idea. But I'm glad I'm not the only person to see that.

For TMNT, which has the same vibe, I get it. It's referencing a cartoon for young children. That's the look. For Avengers I would have been happier personally to see a more mature comic look and feel.

Clearly it wasn't that locked down, considering the characters on the LCD don't match the ones on the game in design. Ah well. Still looks like a really fun game to me.

This is a weird one as far as theme. I am so done with Avengers I don't know how many movies it was but gotta be 20-25. A year ago this pin would have made sense but now I'm just so sick of all things Marvel. GnR is not really that different for me, they were great in high school as the last gasp of the hair bands. Once Seattle changed the landscape I could never go back. It's like Motley Crue, Rat, Poison all those bands, just let it end already. I can take it as a momentary does of nostalgia then I quickly remember how much better life and music got after highschool. My vote goes GNR the theme is not for me but at least they nailed it and got a proper license. It looks polished, innovative and beautiful. If Stern had the MCU Avengers with full assets it might be comparable as it stands it just looks like another Stern. The problem with Pinside and Stern is at release they are all the greatest thing ever. It takes a few months for people to chill out and actual be honest about how good a pin is.

This pretty much sizes it up for me except I was in my mid to late 20s when GnR were cool.

All I can say is it is great to be in a hobby that so rarely makes me want to spend any money.

As far as game of the year, I gotta go Rick And Morty because I don't play new games with outdated themes that have nothing to do with anything I'm into now anymore more than once or twice because I have become totally anti and it bores the fuck out of me. And it's like the only one out there that isn't like that.

Bright yellow etc was all my choice. I don't think it's the wrong way to go based on the source & for a global/multi-generational license ...and neither did the licensor. They let me do my thing - so you're issues are me, not them or Stern.

All blame is mine. I try to make sure every project I do with Stern can stand out from the others... I don't like repeating myself as I see it as a copout and a crutch.

Side note - Personally, I think that helps this discussion as my aim was not the aim of the competitor you're discussing here (who hired someone who could 'do zombie yeti style' I was told - which is an insult to Dayne & myself. Dayne is great guy, btw and a friend - and his own entity oozing his style.) I'd also add In the end they had 6 artists (I count Robt Williams even though they don't credit him oddly) and a pretty long timeframe to put their project together vs one guy(me) and a few months time... I did the best with my time, given more time I'd have rethought early concepts for sure knowing me...</side note>

Listen - I worked with Zidware - I've lived long enough to see people die too young, and I am on facebook... I will take 'too happy' any day of the week over 'brooding darkness'... I tend to aim for happy & fun angles on everything I do as a result of 'life'. I'm self indulgent in that way - so blame me entirely.

Going dark, just like tearing things apart critically, can be much easier roads to travel from my experience. That's not a dig at your critique either - if you like dark mature stuff I was not the guy for you and never will be. Even my darkest work has humor and edges on fun

In the end, I'm one guy who tries to please a broad spectrum audience - I do all the work by myself, no committees - all 3 packages were done in a very short time-frame - but I put in looooong hours (zero weekends off) to keep the quality up because I care. I did my best, and hope the effort shows regardless of distaste for colors. I don't even mind the critiques - just making sure the blame lays on the proper culprit

It shows. The art on AIQ has real presence and energy. Makes the game look (even more) fun to shoot.

Must have skipped whatever generation I'm a part of, or whatever globe I have been living on.

Either that, or it was so long ago, that I no longer give a fuck.

Well then I guess you’re also to blame for the excitement I’m feeling right now, after hearing that my Avengers LE is being delivered tomorrow!

Not everyone has the “proven credentials” that Aurich has to his name.
(I assume you’ve seen the “masterpiece” that is Aliens?)

Man, seriously &$#% these guys who feel the need to trash your artwork, just trying to defend a JJP game that’s light on playfield toys. Douchebags, each and every one. Nobody had negative comments before GnR came out. Weird, that.

This...couldn't have said it better. bra-vo.

This pretty much says it all!

It is is isn't it.

I agree but Stern has made a small fortune betting that people's musical tastes never change from high school.

I own AC/DC to me that is classic Rock N Roll they were never a hair band, Aerosmith and Kiss are similar both are from the 70's. Metallica goes in the same pile as GnR but even less tolerable as they refused to go gracefully into obscurity. GnR at least had the good sense to have one good album an EP and than fade away after the double album cash grab. Maybe it was just the LA influence I dunno but that whole scene just doesnt work for me.

Then damnit I want this!

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There have been numerous studies, opinions, and articles written on that very subject. Some do, and some don't.

I'll admit, I still listen to some bands from the 90s when they come on, which were new when I was in my 30s, but they set the tone for much of the music of the new millennium, which I mostly listen to now.

If I still rock out when say The Strokes come on, does that make me out of touch with music today?

The music today sucks ass. Pop music and hip hop is the worst shot I have ever heard and the people who make it are a bunch of idiots. I find it offensive to my ears. But people listen to it so who is the idiot. That being said, my musical tastes expanded. I was a rock and roll only guy in my younger days but I love jazz now and blue grass and others. Just don’t ask me to listen to the moronic shit that is pop, hip hop or rap today.

dude, thats still getting play in my house...

long live the 'Hats

Just so we are perfectly clear, this has always been the stance of old people with modern music. I agree with you, but alas, I am old.

Dude, I get you but it is t just not likening the music. It is the most unintelligent no talent garbage ever. A lot of them don’t even have musicians. They steal shit and use auto tune.

I'm old enough to remember the music I no longer want to listen to.

And if I ever do forget, I can always count on the pinball industry to keep reminding me.

I'm glad. It's not necessarily my favorite look to be so overly bright across the entire spectrum, but that's okay, everyone has their own personal opinion and I'd rather hear that the artist had free rein. I don't love yellow as a color, that's my issue, it might be someone else's favorite, it's ridiculously subjective.

That's extra silly, but I understand where those sentiments come from. A lot of people lack the language to discuss art and design and fall back on what they're familiar with. I agree, it's insulting, but at the same time I think you should be proud that you've been able to put a stamp on pinball enough for the less educated to use you as a shorthand.

Before Dirty Donny got brought onto Metallica the pinball art landscape was really sad for a very long time. That cracked the ice, and your work with Zidware was more than enough of a trial by fire to earn you a spot after that.

I've followed your career since before Stern, I'd never describe your work as "dark", but let's be honest, you've drawn your fair share of skulls too.

Ultimately I think you made intelligent decisions that you backed with sound rationale. You wanted the game to be bright to read well in a dark room for instance, I can't argue with that. I also think that next to GNR there is more of a 'toylike' feeling because of the bright colors.

Really these comparisons are silly, I'm just curious about how people react to things so I felt like digging into why that might be. Your Avengers is miles beyond the first Avengers game Stern made. We're spoiled for talent and options compared to how things used to be. It's good to remember that.

See, this is the behavior I'm used to from Pinside. Everyone has to make things so fucking personal all the time. If you don't like Alien that's okay with me. If you listed the things you didn't like about it I'd likely agree with you on some of it, and maybe have a discussion about why things were that way. Just like Jeremy was able to maturely respond to feedback, which I appreciated. At no point was I trying to attack him, I respect his work and his attitude and his ethics.

Try growing up and not being a child to people, you'll get more out of your interactions.

Too cool for school lol

Kind of like Led Zeppelin, Aerosmith, the Stones and Elvis never stole music.

Just like pinball, no one theme appeals to everyone. I just hope to find something close (music and pins) and go with it. Personally I wouldn't mind a 80s/90s/00s hip hop pin. Wu-Tang...

Back to the subject. I have played the Avengers Pro, it seems great and I plan on thinking about a NIB premium once the kinks get ironed out. GnR theme doesn't do it for me but that pin looks outstanding. I look forward to playing it and then waiting to pick it up on the used market several years from now.

I hated AIQ art at first but now I kind of like it. My issue with the pin are the total lack of assets, music, and humor/personality.

Ditto on what Aurich said.

Yes, when I think back on all the school I missed to do things that involved music and other things that have become pinball culture now, it might have been a waste, but makes it so I have no interest in repeating or reliving any of it.

I got that.

My wife actually told me today she wants an GnR LE so we will probably be putting one in our home shortly.

I love what JJP brings with every game they produce! I've played them all, and own Eric's first effort. By far the best JJP machine out.... but the problem for me is each JJP machine has the same team of coders and I'm not really sold on the pdf file code breakdown... Or more importantly, the hours of gameplay that I've watched thus far. I will however vote for Avengers because the gameplay I've seen along with the rule set break down THUS FAR is clearly the superior of the two AT THIS POINT.

I see you've not had one stern machine in your history I wish you and I were neighbors! I'd love to have you over to play my JP2 (Keith's sophomore effort.) Or my Avengers prem when It arrives... his games play extremely unique from all other stern machines of past and present. He also builds the foundation of rules to each of his games on his own with support from his talented team mates which now includes Raymond Davidson!

I feel the pain of every single pinball enthusiast who is in love with the great machines stern pinball has made over their 30 years of manufacturing pinball for all markets, BUT have felt like stern has continued to cut costs on their products while not offering their collector/hobbyist a SOLID MACHINE THAT PLAYS LIKE A BALLY/WILLIAMS MACHINE FROM THE PAST... Or it looks like they did. Data east, sega, and stern pinball have always cut costly theme integration in the form of unique sculpts, ramps, mechanical devices such as diverters, subways, spinners, solid wood cabinets, drop targets, pop bumpers with action, sling shots with action, right down to just replacing standard pop bumper caps with flat plastics, often times any theme integration was just a flat plastic PERIOD! Think JP pro raptor, all signs from map, ramps, and helipad, Ghostbusters pro library and ghost trap, AC/DC CANNON,TNT DETONATOR AND DANCING BAND MEMBERS ARE A JOKE! , Deadpool on a hammock and chimichanga truck, the different eddies from iron maiden pro, the Avengers pro & premium sanctum, Avengers pro Gauntlet, the Avengers tower is just four plastics sandwiched together, JP pro/prem T-rex fence is plastics, raptor tower also several plastics pieced together!!!! It make us all sick!

Hopefully the gameplay will continue to get better and stern will see JJP as a bigger threat than a once a year blip on the radar.... but we NEED JJP TO BUILD GAMES WITH A QUICKNESS AND PUT OUT MORE TITLES A YEAR! Lets face it stern has built and sold more machines this year than JJP HAS SOLD OF ALL TITLES THEY SHIPPED PRIOR TO GNR.

Should we really compare these machines anyway? If we gave KE and ZY the same budget and 3 years that Eric had what would they come up with?

I have seen and played both AIQ and GnR, here is my take about the toy-like look of AIQ vs GnR: Too me, it's more of a Stern vs JJP and not just AIQ vs GnR.

It's the extensive use of flat plastic art that Stern uses to achieve their "look" and their primary visual focus to present a theme, versus JJP using more 3-D sculpured elements (guitar heads, catwalk ramps, skeleton Axl Rose, stage lighting, Wonkavator, Black Pearl, Dorothy's house, etc.) The only two lately that I can think of where Stern stepped away from the flat plastic art dominance is JP (T-Rex) and BKSOR (Black Knight). However, even with JP & BKSOR other playfield design elements went to the flat plastic look (guard tower on JP, upper playfield catapult on BKSOR). Heck, even when Stern does put a nice 3D sculpture on the playfield it's usually on the LE/Premium and on the Pro those are replaced with flat plastics. Seeing a playfield dominated by flat plastic design elements versus 3D sculpture design elements is what makes Stern look more toy-like to me when compared to JJP.

In terms of playfield art, both AIQ & GnR are phenomenal.....considering the constraints ZombieYeti was under working alone with limited timeversus the extra time with multiple artists I'd give the nod to ZY!!

"So, you think you are brave? Let's find out." - quoted from Draven.

Hot Wheels for the win!

Whoo hoo!

"We need more cars!!!!" - quoted from Sheriff Incompetent

We all have opinions, if anyone is keeping a tally, I like the humor ZY puts into his artwork. I would prefer less saturated colors on AIQ and I'm not a fan of the bright yellow trim on the LE. I might have a slight preference for a more gritty drawing style but I wouldn't want to go dark.

Overall, the AIQ art looks really good to me.

Need time on both machines before I can place a vote.

I had an AC/DC Luci for two years and then traded it in for a Wonka.
I have been to Tappers in Indy and played the hell out of a JP2.The AC/DC was cool as hell I was at the Texas show when they introduced this game.JP2 is a great game as you can see I don’t go to Stern threads and criticize a game I’ve never played

Title of thread should be changed to-

"Which of these two wins THE PINBALL REHASH OF THE YEAR AWARD?"

GNR hands down.
Top hat from Pinball Magic.
2d fighting gfx from DP
spinning table from...well Avengers/planets/zodiac...

etc, etc

In addition to being beautiful and addictive to play, the game is a true bargain. Really, the whole package just feels like “money” in a way that no recent Stern pro comes close to for the price, truly more comparable to the B/W glory days in both features and solid, quality feel.

I haven’t played the other two yet, but looking objectively at all criteria and especially considering price, surely it isn’t unreasonable for Hot Wheels to also be in contention.

I would bet money right now that these two games will both be highly acclaimed at the Twippy’s!
GnR will get best sound best light best use of a license and possible best game of the year.Having said that the Avengers could get best design and game of the year

I need some time on both before I make my mind up. I do prefer ZY art as I am a fan of his work. GnRLE definitelys gives AIQLE a run for its money art wise, I love the art on both. Slight edge to AIQLE so far.

In The Evening you guys can keep Ramblin' On.....

& I know most of you are Dazed & Confused.....

It's........Been a long time since I've Rock N Rolled....

Not sure if anyone mentioned yet but hate to be a Hearbreaker....the year is not over.

It's not that over the hill and so far away....I think you'll still find A Whole Lotta Love in December....

Thank you.

Well, so far 2020 has been an all around great year... until you brought that up.

How do you top two already old and outdated themes? Let's do one even older.

After just popping open my AIQLE I’ve gotta say I love the yellow version Yeti!

Looks fantastic. I have 20 other pins in all different colors so this is refreshing

My only complaint is that Yeti didn’t have the time to differentiate the LE artwork from the premium. That’s on Stern

I’m going to move this pin next to my GBLE green awesome package!

Aurich, I’m also happy with my AlienLE artwork.

Since TWD and the ugliest modern game ever in GOT, pinball art has become a BIG deal for us “collectors”/players

It matters a lot

I appreciate the hard work and efforts

I think we should all be very thankful and appreciative of the beautiful artwork these guys are doing. Seriously look at how gorgeous tmnt, gnr, and avengers look. Great color packages on all models. This doesn’t need to be another vs debate, but should be more an appreciation of what’s been offered this year by both companies. Thank you to all the artists.

GnR has RGB LED light strips. Lots of them. INNOVATION!!! How could anyone possibly argue with that kind of ground breaking innovation????

Wow wtf dude?