god forbid if someone posts something that other people dont agree with.....

Again I have no idea what site you've been posting on, because clearly it's not this one.

I think your just green with envy......

I think the only thing wrong here was your first post. All you had to do was give a few reasons why you didn't like it. I have no issue with someone not liking or thinking a machine i have is garbage, just tell me why you think that, which you did. And I gave you a thumbs down on your first post, but a thumbs up on the subsequent post.

+1

I played a few games on a new pro recently and my strongest impressions were: tons of stuck balls in multiple locations and, boy, this thing is made cheaply. The pro is shockingly cheap with its flimsy plastics. I mean, ironman looks like a tank compared to avengers. Gomez needs to go back to a designer position only. Having him design the "pin" while he designs other pins, as well as being Vice President isn't working. Avengers needed more time in development, and it shows. I'm sure he logs many hours at Stern, but he can't do everything. Why not have Borg work security at Stern and have Richie do the accounting in addition to their regular positions? Seriously, if Stern is cutting corners by putting more plastic and/or cheaper plastic in all their games, I will re-think buying any new pins they produce like Avengers pro.

Can someone who owns AV Pro get a micrometer, and post the thickness of these new plastics?

It's more about the replacement of molded ramps with ramps made from 3 strips of plastic forming a box.

I found Avengers to be a one shot game. Of course it doesn't have to be a one shot game because your entitled to make any shots you want in any game but, I found shooting the Hawkeye ramp was the only shot really required to get a decent score in this game. You can start Loki repeatedly and you can start Hawkeye vs Blackwidow repeatedly. The value of the Hawkeye shot increases and is locked in for the rest of the game I believe once completed which is also compliments the shoot Hawkeye all day strategy. Using this strategy also keeps you away from the bumper drain I've heard about although on these machines didn't seem to be an issue. The only other shot I went for was Hulk to start Hulk MB. I've only played the game six times during the Houston launch party but unless the rules change, I can't imagine any of the top players doing anything other than shooting Hawkeye all day. I still thought it was an enjoyable game though but not worth the price they are asking imo.

I don't think it's the thickness that's the issue, it's that there are many long plastics without enough mounting points to keep them rigid. There's a big long plastic that I think only has mounts on each end...so the whole plastic wobbles. If it had 2 or 3 more rivets & brackets, it wouldn't do that. The big ship plastic on the left looks like it's only mounted at the bottom...so it flops about because it's not held securely at the other end.

<<The value of the Hawkeye shot increases and is locked in for the rest of the game I believe once completed>>

--Pinball News review said there is a 2x shot multiplier the player receives after collecting each Avenger (ie. completing Hawkeye), but it only lasts for the rest of the ball--not the rest of the game.

--Also, Avengers modes must be started/qualified first in single ball play or else you won't be able to collect any of them during Loki MB--no matter how often you start Loki MB.

--The LE adds a cross-over ramp which helps a little from being able to keep shooting the Hawkeye loop/ramp many times in a row and keep locking balls back to back.

Then make the first post a review. Don't "troll" for replies by posting like that.

Yep, out of the box at APE convention.
Also, I'm not the only one that has had this happen to them, so this is not a so super LE edition.
Fact is, that I have games 15+ years old that the ball doesn't get stuck in misc. places.

What was your drink of choice? Depending on your answer I may or may not give credence to your claim.

Those too.

I'm no fan boy of certain themes or designers,
I like a well executed game from code to layout to art and sound.

If a game is $4500, to me, it should be a home-run &
not just a decent theme with some ok sound effects and ok art and a funky toy...

PinballNews had a good explanation for this:

"Both layers have copious amounts of artwork on them which would be much harder to achieve with a regular vacuum-formed ramp."

Avengers is garbage

avengers.jpg

Did you get the memo..?? That is one funny movie!

um yeah... I'm going to need you to come into work saturday...

I played it and would agree, Not a very well made game. I thought this would be kickass game but no such luck. One look at the ramps and I said what the f%#k, what a cheap way to make ramps. I would hate to see it with some plays on it, It will ruin all the plastics with ball trail. Xmen beats this machine by a long run IMHO. Very cheap machine no matter what is said go look at it and play some games on it and you will see.

Yes X-Men is my overall favorite-best Stern ever made-IMO-but I have Avengers right next to it. It is actually really nice having two totally different games with great layout next to each other. Apples and oranges-and I happen to love both(:

Yea I have both. Xmen doesn't get touched because of the code...and we'll because of avengers/ACDC. I'm pretty positive avengers would still be my go to game even with outstanding xmen software. Avengers (LE) really is awesome and fun...IF you know how to play. Xmen is just a pretty light show for my 4 mo old son at this point.

As far as the avengers ramps are concerned, this....

And this...

I honestly think the ramps look sweet especially with the color changing GI. But yea, they feel flimsy with a closer look. As long as they hold up, I don't see the problem, I never had an issue with these style ramps on TF.

Don't you know that you cant say anything negative about Stern games. They are all awesome regardless of how cheap they are made or how bad the game sucks or how incomplete the code is and will never get fixed.

There are metal ramps in the game (black widow, back of Hawkeye loop) that handle the upwards force of the ball. This is better than the plastic ramps on Tron and X-men imo. The plastic "ramps" that everyone is complaining about are for the most part just guided return lanes, not dealing with a lot of force. Time will only tell how well they will last.

The only area that is really problematic imo is the shooter/launch area. Would definitely like it to be more ridgid.

A very fun machine, with a unique layout and with some very nice design features, not a very cheap machine, no matter what is said.

As usual, Paul is on the money. The metal guides for the loops are also designed perfectly. The game can shoot extremely fast. Just last night I hit back to back CA shots into a HE shot to IM into BW off the CA skill shot - Was amazing. The game definitely has so many stages to its layout and rules. Similar to LoTR and not as linear as some other recent sterns.

I have only had the chance to play the pro version, and it was in an arcade setting. There were a few issues right out of the box (or soon thereafter) including a loose cosmic cube that almost fell off, one bad switch, and the "lock" area as well. After these things were taken care of it seemed to be pretty solid as far as the hardware went. Like any pinball machine stuff like this is to be expected. If these things keep happening then it will suck. The updated software keeps the ball from getting stuck in the hulk area for the most part, if it does get hung up there its very brief so not really a big deal. I didn't like the fact that you cant see the inlane inserts or the top lane inserts properly. Also the rules seemed very cookie cutter but i found that during play it was fun. If you read the rules you'll be kinda down on them, but playing and hitting some of those tough shots in a good groove its a lot of fun. Avengers continuing to run and multiballs stacking help so much! The shots seem to be tough but just play a while to get the hang of them and give the game a break. i thought the pro was pretty cool, hulk isn't the best toy in the world, neither is the cosmic cube, both are fun and interactive though which is great! Cool game to play in the wild, can't say yea or nea on buying a pro for 4k but its a fun new game.

haven't pulled this apart yet, but a quick look would indicate there is nothing under the plastic that the ball hits when being launched. That is to say there is no support on the side closest to the cabinet. This causes that plastic to torque/twist slightly. Was wondering if there would be someway to mount a rubber post or support under there.

One more thought about this - I bet they are much cheaper to replace than the vacuum-molded ramps. I paid $175 to replace the right ramp on IM, ouch.

In the end wether they feel cheaper or not the new games play awesome and sorry to say but they make the Williams feel very old. I love them for what they are but its night and day to play one and then the other.
Stern is making some very fun games.

They definitely make the william's look old. Stern has been making some very pretty games of late. This new style of ramp has its positives and negatives. I think a few more secured points would make them feel more solid for sure, but I really like how the ramps have printed graphics on them. They aren't perfect and I hope Stern and George Gomez are a bit more mindful of the way the printed graphics obscure the playfield in the future. The most infuriating part of playing Avengers is having to move my head all over the place to see what inserts are lit.

Agreed, similar plastic runs to the inlane from BW, but it's fine, just seems to be the shooter lane where its a long stretch and right where the ball crosses to lock for Loki. The rest feels just fine.

I do wish there were more objects as in lotr or tspp, rather than plastic displays, which are hard to decipher anyway. Other than that my biggest gripe on this machine are the completely blocked views of the o and the k inlanes and the top above the pop bumpers, but even lotr has some blocked views around balrod and the shooter lane.

It's a tough game, and if I was pumping dollar after dollar into it, I might be mad at how hard it can be. I'd say I have a good game on 3 ball every 10 games, can be brutal.

Touché. Great point. Really puts the argument in perspective.

You can't blame someone for ignorance that they can't help. They play a poorly set up or broken game on location and then spew. And a pro at that, which clearly isn't the equal of the LE. But you can blame them for self righteous vitriol...and I do.

Exactly! I've totally complained about blocked sight lines and inlanes. And my personal favorite - NOT! - not being able to see the Thor drops. And I own the game people. And I still think its RAD! Because its fun fun fun fun...and ballz hard! It's thrilling to play and keeps you coming back for more. It is what it is. You think it should be more for the price? Ok. Don't buy it, or buy it and complain that it should be more for the price, but saying the game sucks and isnt fun is disingenuous...I actually haven't heard anyone that owns an LE say that the game isn't worthy of its price. I've heard them say its expensive. It is! Is it worth it? It is to me.

Why did you have to replace the right ramp on IM?

Does "feel very old" means solid like real wood furniture compared to Ikea press board. Have you lifted the playfield to do work on an Avenger Pro? It is not even feel cheap, it is cheap. I know that is just the way it is these day in the "disposable era". But I want to see any of these games take a beating on route like a T2 and have anything left in the end.

That's my concern too, these machines may be great in home use but they will further the trend of route games being constantly broken and not standing up to any serious game play

They've now replaced the lotr near me with an avengers pro and already the plunger is too weak to make it all the way to the skill shot most of the time, can't judge much else as the legs are completely flat, the back isn't higher then that front at all. The ramp shots are almost impossible like this as there's no speed on the ball. Not a fault with the game just an OP fail.