(Topic ID: 31625)

Avengers Pics - Pro and LE Models


By jhoward1082

6 years ago



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  • Latest reply 6 years ago by Gerry
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#701 6 years ago
Quoted from goodgameslover:

To be honest, i feel the same way. Avengers Le reminds me more of TRON LE and Avatar LE in terms of extra against the pro. With Xmen and AC/DC the differences were much bigger imo.
This doesn't mean it will be a bad game, just comparing here.

How can you say that? The two games you mention had very little game play differences. The avengers LE adds a whole ramp. The differences seem really huge.

#702 6 years ago
Quoted from bobbyconover:

And yet WOZ won an award at IAAPA and apparently a bunch of operators lined up to buy them, which I'm guessing had at least something to do with the apparent materials quality and serviceability.

Isn't that what JJP was after with the business model...the LCD to attract the non player trying to see what's going on with the gameplay....just the screen itself, in a bar or any location is going to grab the attention of others...

I believe JJP from day one said he wanted to broaden the fan base and appeal and it takes new innovation and quality to make that happen...

I would think OPS would love the new option and the ability to potentially draw more people in and "earn" more.....

If I were to walk into a location with pins I wouldn't want to play a stripped down crappy pro model......not that all pros are crappy...

#703 6 years ago
Quoted from turbo20lbs:

Stephen Lang is pretty awesome in that pin.

AMP SOOOOOOOOT JACKPOT!

lol...

#704 6 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

If I were to walk into a location with pins I wouldn't want to play a stripped down crappy pro model......not that all pros are crappy...

True. You being a pinhead that may make sense. To an average person they probably don't know an LE even exists nor would they care at that point. All pinball is good pinball.

#705 6 years ago

Dunno Markmon, Ok you get an extra ramp i agree. But compared to Xmen and AC/DC it seems like a step back instead of forward.

- AC/DC : Bell, Mini playfield, extra diverter ramp
- Xmen : Nightcrawler pop ups, Ice man ramp, moving disc.

And Avengers : Extra ramp, and moveable Hulk ramp.

To me it seems like a (small) step back. The other games extra are also more interactive then Avengers. Of course that's my opinion.
Also i'm not counting the drop targets.

#706 6 years ago
Quoted from bobbyconover:

What ratio of Pros to Premiums/LEs have you guys seen on route in your areas? I'm genuinely curious. It could just be that we're totally abnormal up here.

1 LE (TF) in a movie theatre. 3 other pros at same location. (Tron, AC/DC, Rolling Stones)
Other location has 1 pro (Shrek)
CEC's here have a LOTR (beat to death) and a POTC (switch errors, but plays okay otherwise)
Nickelrama in Garland has all Pros - AC/DC, Avatar, BDK, TF, Tron, SM, IJ4.
There is also a barcade here that has a beat-to-crap, but playing nicely Charlie's Angels. Not sure if you want to count that.

So... within 10 miles of my house... 1 LE, 14 "regulars". 7%.

#707 6 years ago
Quoted from BrianR73:

so what is considered premium vs. LE? Your too good to be cheap and own a pro? but you aint rich enough to be limited edition? LOL. This premium reminds me of saying I have a "poor man's Cadillac? What is the difference?

Premium = Don't want to take chance on an unproven game and don't want to wait a year for completed code but still want all the features of the LE if the game turns out great.

IMO LEs are for the flippers and those who love the theme enough to jump in without playing first.

#708 6 years ago
Quoted from krupa:

Premium = Don't want to take chance on an unproven game and don't want to wait a year for completed code but still want all the features of the LE if the game turns out great.
IMO LE's are for the flippers and those who love the theme enough to jump in without playing first.

+1.

I was in on Tron LE long before any pics or gameplay hit, because I loved the theme. There are certain themes that I would spring for the LE's on no matter what also. If Tron LE ended up being a flop, I wouldn't have cared.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of speculators or flippers that think they are going to get BIBLE or Tron LE prices out of the Hulk later on. Good for them for wanting to take the gamble, but they are buying for the wrong reason. Buying into a pinball machine for an investment is foolish.

But lots of people have the taste of TFLE's, X-MEN LE's, and Avatar LE's left in their mouth and are still approaching with caution. $7K is getting up in the high end pricing range, and is too much to gamble with for me- especially when there will be a premium available with all the same features.

#709 6 years ago
Quoted from goodgameslover:

Dunno Markmon, Ok you get an extra ramp i agree. But compared to Xmen and AC/DC it seems like a step back instead of forward.
- AC/DC : Bell, Mini playfield, extra diverter ramp- Xmen : Nightcrawler pop ups, Ice man ramp, moving disc.
And Avengers : Extra ramp, and moveable Hulk ramp.
To me it seems like a (small) step back. The other games extra are also more interactive then Avengers. Of course that's my opinion. Also i'm not counting the drop targets.

I wouldn't call the crossover arrow an extra ramp. The ACDC LE has the crossover, but it is just another path to take, not an extra ramp. Looks to be the same on Avengers. The left ramp just has more paths to take.

#710 6 years ago

That's another way of looking at it.

#711 6 years ago
Quoted from PW79:

When Billy Joel gets quoted the thread is going to hell lol.

+1

Now I need to go stockpile some Billy Joel lyrics to have ready.

#712 6 years ago
Quoted from jimjim66:

Captain America comics the last 5-7 years has outsold Hulk comics.

All it took was shooting him in the head with a sniper rifle.

-1
#713 6 years ago
Quoted from dfsays:

Not petty comments on public forums.

Go jump in a cold northern lake. Really. Being in the public eye is to open yourself to criticism, and without criticism, the product never gets any better, it just stagnates. If everyone took your view and every pin release was like "OMFG FAIRY UNICORNS OF HAPPINESS, SHUT UP AND TAKE MY MONEY!" then one of two things would happen:

1. Stern would never have any competitors because clearly they would be doing EVERYTHING right.

or

2. We would consistently see HORRIBLE playfield design because nobody else sees a better or different way to do things, and Stern would just be able to sit there with the minimum effort involved, maximize their profit, and go laughing to the bank every day. This isn't happening. There's a pretty good divide of opinion even on games that are considered dogs overall like Avatar, TF, WPT... etc...etc...etc...

I think trying a different type of playfield layout was a good move for them. I think their choices on code and feature differences are completely infuriating, but you know what.. I'm not their target. I won't be buying another NIB for a very long time.

#714 6 years ago
Quoted from Frax:

All it took was shooting him in the head with a sniper rifle.

Ed Brubaker made him a hot commodity before that. The Civil War Crossover event, and bringing back Bucky a the Winter Soldier helped sell Cap books. Cap didn't stay dead long anyways. Besides, everybody "dies" in comics.

#715 6 years ago
Quoted from Khabbi:

But lots of people have the taste of TFLE's, X-MEN LE's, and Avatar LE's left in their mouth and are still approaching with caution.

If I read one more person lump these three games together I'm going to explode. They are not comparable in art, gameplay, code, or features.

#716 6 years ago
Quoted from Khabbi:

Unfortunately, there are a lot of speculators or flippers that think they are going to get BIBLE or TRON LE prices out of the Hulk later on ... $7K is getting up in the high end pricing range, and is too much to gamble with for me- especially when there will be a premium available with all the same features.

With an Avengers premium on the horizon, I think Hulk is a much worse gamble than games with only a pro and LE version available.

#717 6 years ago
Quoted from PEN:

If I read one more person lump these three games together I'm going to explode. They are not comparable in art, gameplay, code, or features.

That's not why I lumped them together I lumped them together becuase they are examples of LE's that lost value over time vs ones that increased in value (Tron LE, BIBLE, LTBR, BSM).

#718 6 years ago
Quoted from Khabbi:

That's not why I lumped them together I lumped them together becuase they are examples of LE's that lost value over time vs ones that increased in value (TRON LE, BIBLE, LTBR, BSM).

Fair enough.

I believe more people need to play XMEN, with or without a code update. Sometimes games take a while to become liked.

The more I play TFLE the more I like it

Avatar... well, nevermind.

#719 6 years ago
Quoted from PEN:

Sometimes games take a while to become liked.

IM is the ultimate example of that!

#720 6 years ago

TFLE is growing on me....hope the new code will make it even better!

#721 6 years ago
Quoted from txstargazer3:

IM is the ultimate example of that!

Yep! I liked IM right away though.

#722 6 years ago

Man,
I am all about the pros, but I feel this one has a lot more to offer then what the other les do. I have a Trans pro and a ACDC pro and love both.
I think this one is a no brainer more balls in the le. More ramp action. Green display.
derek

#723 6 years ago

I would agree with you but the extra crossover in ACDC is just another way to slow the ball down; where as in this game it will be an extra ramp to keep the action going and add some flow to it.
derek

#724 6 years ago
Quoted from goodgameslover:

Dunno Markmon, Ok you get an extra ramp i agree. But compared to Xmen and AC/DC it seems like a step back instead of forward.
- AC/DC : Bell, Mini playfield, extra diverter ramp
- Xmen : Nightcrawler pop ups, Ice man ramp, moving disc.
And Avengers : Extra ramp, and moveable Hulk ramp.
To me it seems like a (small) step back. The other games extra are also more interactive then Avengers. Of course that's my opinion.
Also i'm not counting the drop targets.

using your list:
- AC/DC : Bell, Mini playfield, extra diverter ramp
- Xmen : Nightcrawler pop ups, Ice man ramp, moving disc.
- avengers: extra ramp, moveable hulk ramp, extra diverter gate in orbit, 6 ball vs 4 ball mb

The extra orbit gate is a big gameplay change. Changes the whole speed and flow of the game. The same was true on TFLE. Don't forget the light show differences on LE vs pro. You can't just stick in LEDs to the pro to get that either.

#725 6 years ago
Quoted from PEN:

Yep! I liked IM right away though.

+1. I played it at another collectors house and made an offer on the spot.

#726 6 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

The extra orbit gate is a big gameplay change. Changes the whole speed and flow of the game. The same was true on TFLE. Don't forget the light show differences on LE vs pro. You can't just stick in LEDs to the pro to get that either.

So, the question is, do you think it's worth the $2600 or so extra?

#727 6 years ago

Can all the pinball PhDs here knocking the game based on pictures and feature lists wait until they've played the freaking games at least? I'm sure Stern does read these boards, and I'm sure they've learned a thing or two over the months/years...but I'm sure they're laughing their asses off at some of these posts. I know I am.

#728 6 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

Can all the pinball PhDs here knocking the game based on pictures and feature lists wait until they've played the freaking games at least? I'm sure Stern does read these boards, and I'm sure they've learned a thing or two over the months/years...but I'm sure they're laughing their asses off at some of these posts. I know I am.

Yeah, they're laughing all the way to the bank.

This is a pinball forum, and we're talking pinball.. good and bad. You mention the people "knocking" the game based on pics, what about the people praising the game on pics? Only those that are negative are wrong? Sounds like you think you're the PhD?

#729 6 years ago
Quoted from Khabbi:

So, the question is, do you think it's worth the $2600 or so extra?

I do because:
1) I think the light show is huge
2) I don't think either pro or LE would be in my collection long term anyway
3) the sale loss of about $500 will be the same on both.
4) if I had the pro and didn't love it I'd be always wondering if the LE would have been better

So i would rather tie up $2600 more for longer and play the better game before I sell and get my funds back.

If you decide later you like the game but want a pro you can easily sell the LE and pick up a pro for cheaper and pocket some cash.

Then there's always the chance the game is a home run and you love it in which case the pro wouldn't be enough in my opinion. The hulk version is beautiful to look at.

#730 6 years ago

Fact is everyone here is mostly ignorant about this game. I think the people praising the game at least are doing it in the spirit of pinball. Its a new game for crissakes! its a pinball machine! and it looks cool. i have no idea how it plays...but to neg it at this point - as you might say in your inimitable way - is "douchey". And pointless.

#731 6 years ago
Quoted from TheFamilyArcade:

Fact is everyone here is mostly ignorant about this game. I think the people praising the game at least are doing it in the spirit of pinball. Its a new game for crissakes! its a pinball machine! and it looks cool. i have no idea how it plays...but to neg it at this point - as you might say in your inimitable way - is "douchey". And pointless.

Bashing the game play before playing it or without full code would be pointless, judging the art to some extent makes perfect sense. I will admit every game I have ever judged from pictures looks better in person.

#732 6 years ago

I bought tf le combo & xmen le way before pictures because i
love the themes. I feel let down by stern i will never buy new again
from them.

#733 6 years ago
Quoted from MMuller:

I bought tf le combo & xmen le way before pictures because i
love the themes. I feel let down by stern i will never buy new again
from them.

You may want to change your avatar then. Just saying.

#734 6 years ago

After some study of the LE pictures, here are some things that I noticed that didn't first see:

Soft shots to the Black Widow ramp may be diverted to the Hulk kickout hole. There doesn't seem to be a diverter, so only soft shots will end up there through the hole in the plastic above the kickout.

For the Hawkeye shot (far left shot), if it makes it up the ramp in the back, it can go one of two places. Either down the mini ramp (which I at first thought went to the pop bumpers) and then into the shooter lane (where it can enter the Loki lock area), or to the Hawkeye cross playfield ramp to the left flipper. In essence the shooter lane is 2 tiered. When you plunge the ball, its in the lower part. The upper part can only go to the Hawkeye ramp.

In the attached photos, you can see how the upper mini ramp goes to the shooter lane.

What I do not yet understand (I'd be happy to hear people's thoughts):

1. Where does the ball go on a plunge?
2. When the ball goes across the Hawkeye ramp, it looks like it would go into the left outlane and drain. How does it get to the inlane?
3. If the ball from the left most Hawkeye shot is diverted to the shooter / Loki lock lane (i.e. not to the Hawkeye cross ramp) what is to keep the ball from going back down the shooter lane? Why would it go to the left to the Loki lock? Is it only the small piece of plastic that sticks out on the right side (i.e. to the right of Agent Colston's target)? If so, it would seem like a lot of balls might accidently end up in the shooter lane. I would not like that much at all.

avLE1.jpg avLE4.jpg

#735 6 years ago
Quoted from Apollyon:

After some study of the LE pictures, here are some things that I noticed that didn't first see:
Soft shots to the Black Widow ramp may be diverted to the Hulk kickout hole. There doesn't seem to be a diverter, so only soft shots will end up there through the hole in the plastic above the kickout.
For the Hawkeye shot (far left shot), if it makes it up the ramp in the back, it can go one of two places. Either down the mini ramp (which I at first thought went to the pop bumpers) and then into the shooter lane (where it can enter the Loki lock area), or to the Hawkeye cross playfield ramp to the left flipper. In essence the shooter lane is 2 tiered. When you plunge the ball, its in the lower part. The upper part can only go to the Hawkeye ramp.
In the attached photos, you can see how the upper mini ramp goes to the shooter lane.
What I do not yet understand (I'd be happy to hear people's thoughts):
1. Where does the ball go on a plunge?2. When the ball goes across the Hawkeye ramp, it looks like it would go into the left outlane and drain. How does it get to the inlane?3. If the ball from the left most Hawkeye shot is diverted to the shooter / Loki lock lane (i.e. not to the Hawkeye cross ramp) what is to keep the ball from going back down the shooter lane? Why would it go to the left to the Loki lock? Is it only the small piece of plastic that sticks out on the right side? If so, it would seem like a lot of balls might accidently end up in the shooter lane. I would not like that much at all.

1. The pops
2. It goes just above the ramp and drops onto it continuing the path to the inlane.
3. The shooter ramp is higher than the plastic. It diverts the balls to the ramp lock

There is a diverter at the black widow ramp. Looks like the acdc diverters and is covered by a plastic.

#737 6 years ago
Quoted from Apollyon:

2. When the ball goes across the Hawkeye ramp, it looks like it would go into the left outlane and drain. How does it get to the inlane?

The Hawkeye arrow ramp drops the ball into the plastic ramp that leads to the inlane (see the left plastic ramp that runs along most of the length of the machine).

#738 6 years ago

I see now in the photos how the shooter lane is higher and how the loki lock works. Still can't see where the black widow ramp diverted would be. I trust its there but just can't see how it would work.

#739 6 years ago

Nevermind, I see how the BW diverter would work. I thought it was on the left part of the ramp portion that the Hulk pulls up. There is a space there that the ball could go through to the hole. But I see it's around the corner of the ramp under the plastic.

#740 6 years ago

The Loki 3 ball ramp will release the captured ball in that mode is not activated, so you can't at this time just load the loki multi ball from the launcher.

#741 6 years ago
Quoted from bobbyconover:

And yet WOZ won an award at IAAPA and apparently a bunch of operators lined up to buy them, which I'm guessing had at least something to do with the apparent materials quality and serviceability. I may be living in a pinball bubble here in the Pacific Northwest, where both players and operators are more savvy than in a lot of areas, but most ops I know who have put the last few Sterns on location have gone with the Premiums or LEs. As an op myself I'm not interested in putting a Pro on location. Who wants to be the op who has the lame version of a game, while the other guys down the street or across town have the complete game? If Pros are supposedly for heavy-duty route use, why are they the least serviceable/durable of all with the lame support pegs, thin trampoline aprons that Lazarus the ball back into play constantly, cumbersome latch lockdown bars, thinner clearcoat (at least I seem to remember this was the case on some games), non-covering siderails, incandescent bulbs etc? It doesn't really add up to me. I know everyone claims route ops prefer the Pros but I just haven't seen it myself. And on top of that I know of 4 local ops including myself who have ordered WOZ, which goes completely against the idea that we all think cheaper is better.
What ratio of Pros to Premiums/LEs have you guys seen on route in your areas? I'm genuinely curious. It could just be that we're totally abnormal up here.

So as some what of an expert in this field, I will weigh in here. Yes the pro is designed for the Coin op world due to price, a few less features and generally less maintenance features added(less drop targets ect).

But an Operator looking to shake things up on his route can buy a Premium and use it in his A list locations. Generally a Premium will out earn a Pro in the right locations but some locations do not warrant a $6500 machine. You guys also have to remember that Sterns market isnt just Domestic but also very big in Europe where the operator market almost exclusively buys Pros.. Sterns Mission is to get more pinballs in more locations and to get pinballs back to be a viable business venture for Coin-Op..

Remember the more players we all can help find pinball, the more money that will be in the pinball community, the more money in the community the more likely the industry as a whole is to grow and prosper and maybe return to its former glory of the mid 1990's. Just in the past 5 years we have seen a huge gain in the pinball world with new manufactures, Great online parts sellers, and Even many companies like X-Pin, Eli(sorry don't know your company), Lockwhenlit, laserriffic, cointaker and more all making parts to customize your machines to fit your taste!

#742 6 years ago

I'm sure it was already mentioned somewhere in this thread, but I just noticed for the first time that Pingame Journal has the full game feature matrix chart up for all versions including the premium. It seems like the premium will look almost exactly the same as the pro except for "a powdercoated metallic red steel bottomed arch". Although it isn't specifically mentioned, I assume it will also have flipper button guards. If this is the case, I really think the premium is the way to go, as I like the artwork on the pro better than either of the LE's.

#743 6 years ago

Reading the Chart that I got I looks like it will have normal black Powder coated rails and legs.. So I wouldn't bet on the flipper button guards. But you can always add the half moons.. But I'm guessing the Prem will be 400-500 less and it will not have the shaker motor, Colored rails, Mirrored back glass, and won't be limited. It also wont be out until atleast February.

Price is just speculation I have no insider knowledge on that at ALL

#744 6 years ago
Quoted from Gexchange:

Reading the Chart that I got I looks like it will have normal black Powder coated rails and legs.. So I wouldn't bet on the flipper button guards.

The chart doesn't mention anything about button guards for the LE's either, but they obviously have them. There are a couple of reasons why I'm inlcined to think the premium might have the button guards as well. For starters, if you look at the pro, it is clear that they have purposely left space in the artwork where the button guards would go. Secondly, AC/DC premium has button guards. Then again, in the case of AC/DC, the side armor and legs are power coated red like the LTBR version. Since we know that the side armor on Avengers premium will be black just like the pro, the whole thing may just be wishful thinking on my part.

#745 6 years ago
Quoted from gweempose:

The chart doesn't mention anything about button guards for the LE's either, but they obviously have them. There are a couple of reasons why I'm inlcined to think the premium might have the button guards as well. For starters, if you look at the pro, it is clear that they have purposely left space in the artwork where the button guards would go. Secondly, AC/DC premium has button guards. Then again, in the case of AC/DC, the side armor and legs are power coated red like the LTBR version. Since we know that the side armor on Avengers premium will be black just like the pro, the whole thing may just be wishful thinking on my part.

I don't disagree I would say 50/50 shot but the half moons would solve it if they came without!

#746 6 years ago
Quoted from Gexchange:

Price is just speculation

I sure hope it's at least double ($800-$1000 less) on that estimate Gex.
Nobody's buying the premium if they can get an LE for $400-$500 more.
At least that's my take on it... Errr, "speculation".

#747 6 years ago
Quoted from NimblePin:

I sure hope it's at least double ($800-$1000 less) on that estimate Gex...
Nobody's buying the premium if they can get an LE for $400-$500 more.
At least that's my take on it.

Assuming the LE's are readily available when the premium comes out. My guess even if distributors still had some they would at that point raise the price. There's certainly room to do so since the LE's are 1000 less than Sterns suggested price.

#748 6 years ago

Yeah,
I can see that happening.
Still, I'd like to think those blue versions will be hanging around for a while. Not to say that it's ugly or anything but, yeah- it kinda is. Especially with Loki's ginormous face at the very top! Kinda makes Alec Baldwin's mug look halfway decent, no?
A Chrome, candy red, or even a black nickel trim, would have jived much better with the art IMHO. The blue T-molding (like the green) being four to five shades lighter, looks out of place.

We haven't even seen the Premium translite yet...
Who knows what lurks in the hearts of Stern?

#749 6 years ago
Quoted from NimblePin:

I sure hope it's at least double ($800-$1000 less) on that estimate Gex.
Nobody's buying the premium if they can get an LE for $400-$500 more.
At least that's my take on it... Errr, "speculation".

If I remember correctly the price diff on AC/DC prem / LE at pre release pricing was $500?

#750 6 years ago
Quoted from Gexchange:

If I remember correctly the price diff on AC/DC prem / LE at pre release pricing was $500?

Just from the quotes I saw, the LE's were 6700 preorder and the the Premiums have stayed around 6K before shipping. I was shocked when I read 7K for LE Avengers when the MSRP is 400 lower than ACDC.

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