Now that's funny!

So what i do know is this....when we actually have something to compare Stern to, in our hands, that's when the rubber hits the road....and many pin heads are anal, detailed (whiny?) and I'm gueesing when we can do the hands on double check test of both Stern is going to be in trouble OR he has to step it up further...

That said, I love my LOTR LE that I paid 5200 for and my SM and I will probably let them rape me on a Star Trek.....but its why I didn't buy any of the recent pins, although AC/DC premium will be in the house at some point!

Bingo.......and "if they deliver" is a big ????.....what do you get for the 5k, 7k or 10k you spend, simple as that....and when people can clearly see the difference and have choices....then presumably they will choose "wisely" for whatever floats their boat!

When you get a "restored" pin listed for 15k from Hep, Keller or whomever its because the sh*t cost a lot of labor time and improved parts quality.....

I agree, their code releases have been an issue lately (looking at you X-men). However, modern machines will get software updates. Lots of B/W had multiple ROM (software) releases. Having a new machine release, with not getting any software updates ever would be a bad thing imo.

No reason to blame Stern when we continue to buy these machines. I, for one hope the collectors keep pumping money into Stern so we will at least be guaranteed new games. If you don't like the prices, vote with your wallet and wait for a used machine to come up for sale. This is what I'm doing for AC/DC, but unfortunately I'm still waiting.

Great pinball machines are more than just a sum of their parts though. That's why some DEs are worth more than some B/Ws. I haven't played Avengers or Xmen but I've never once been bothered by the build quality of my AC/DC. It's one of my favorite games ever.

I haven't gotten a chance to play WOZ yet and have no idea how it stacks up gameplay wise. But if it has that magic "something" that the great games have, combined with the superior build quality, then yes, Stern will need to up their game.

Exciting times indeed.

Agreed, gotta play great or it won't matter....

Bottom line, any maker, any theme, any anything.

Well, I think the shots are fun, so we'll see how it goes with finished code. I haven't played it with any substantial code present.

i can do this. No problem.

Sorry but this can't be done because machines don't exist yet. My new JJP machine is still theoretical as it has been for the last two years.

Now if you're trying to make some point based on quality of components, that's not very relevant. First, the stern games are not known for breaking or wearing out faster then other games. So the quality is as good as it needs to be. Second, you're paying for more then just the assembled parts. I suppose if you buy a copy of windows you're upset that the cost of the disk it came in looks just as cheap as a $7.00 music cd? A lot more goes into making a good game than heavy parts.

Maybe Jack will throw in some cash in the goodie bag for the long wait.....ahhh maybe not.

Led holding up longer than incandescents remains to be seen. I have two games with leds and have had to replace more bulbs in them than 5 of my other games with incandescents and this was in a very short period of time. I've replaced one incandescent bulb in a 1 year period and replaced 19 leds in the course of 6 months out of those two games. This is my experience with them

Well, it is true that "street level" Gottlieb games were simpler in design and cheaper in price, being around $1700 or so in 1990, as well as being discounted even lower after a time.

Regarding their quality, I would rate their parts as far superior to a new Stern game with the exception of the cabinet material. I have some "street level" Gottlieb games and new Sterns, no comparison with wire and metal gauge, fasteners, PCBs, connectors, it is not even close. Gottlieb quality exceeds Stern easily.

I agree that there are far more examples of routed games in poor condition than those in excellent shape. I don't think Clay was talking about normal maintenance as much as parts and build quality.

As a hobby operator that has several LEs on location, I have seen firsthand the issues that Clay describes. Like it or not, these newer Stern LEs ARE breaking more often than is reasonable and the parts just don't hold up. You can't say I don't maintain the games. I'll bet my games look and play as nice on location as many of the games people have at home. Every week I have the playfields up fixing something else. Broken coil tabs, broken wires, PCB issues, trough problems, blown transistors, and other mechanical issues. On the flip side, I haven't had near as many issues with Sterns made more than a couple years ago. Games like Wheel of Fortune, Simpson's, Avatar, those have held up much better.

If you guys haven't seen these problems yet, you probably will. It just may take more games being played before you do. I love the gameplay of ACDC LE and Avengers LE, just wish they didn't break so much.

Keep in mind most people here buying NIB games aren't paying $7500 for a Stern LE or Premium. Knock $1000 or so off of that price. So - by that rationale - Sterns are $1000 or so less than a WOZ. Bargain!!!!

Even at $6500-$7000 it is robbery for a game with incomplete code.

I'm pretty sure that a Hulk LE would run right at $7k after shipping, didn't they?

Yeah, WOZ!!!

....but yeah, X-Men's f*cked up.

AC/DC's pretty damn stylin' code-wise at the moment and the Premium is ~$6k.

Depends....but, OK...for the sake of argument, sure...shipping isn't included in WOZ's price so - I guess it's a $8k game now hehe Still $1000 more than Avengers LE.

...but yeah, sh*t's too expensive, whatchagonna do. If anyone wants to break the trend, I've got $8k cash in hand for your BBB!!!!

*crickets*

I agree Stern should do more beta testing before release , but at least it doesnt take them over two years with broken promises-dangling the carrot in front of the rabbit. WOZ will be released- and even after years in r&d, design, and build-will still have issues-IMO

Anybody can second guess the work and effort of others, this adds little to no value in my opinion. Saying or acting like you could do it better is just silly until you actually have. Nobody posting in this thread (or providing “game reviews” on YouTube) owns a pinball manufacturing company, so I seriously doubt they can speak very knowledgably about costing or what it really takes to mass produce a consumer product as complicated as a pinball machine. Stern managed to survive when everyone else crashed and burned, so they must have some inkling as to what they are doing. Do I like paying $7,500 for a NIB machine – NO, but it is what it is.

I think we can all agree that Stern has raised their prices only because we are willing to pay them, even with "sparse" playfields and incomplete code. I personally think that $7K is ridiculous for a Hulk LE and just don't see the value in it, considering that just a few years ago the same machine would sell for $4k or so... and a year ago, $5800 or so (Tron LE, TF LE). And I think we CAN talk about value here, because this is the initial offering price, not the price of a well established collectible (like the MM for $12K reference). Totally different thing there IMO.

But we are hungry for new games and the thought that our LE might jump in price like BIBLE or Tron LE makes people not only buy one, but two or three Hulks with the hopes of making some money. Those that have been burned by TF LE or XMEN LE have learned their lesson...but some are drawn in by the shiny green armor and are hoping that the standout graphics package will make the game shoot up in price.

I wish those that bought the Hulk for $7K the best, but I'm sitting this one out or buying a pro/premium.

This new business model is not unique to JJP in any way. Crowdfunding I don't think is a trend that's going to disappear. Its been used on everything from the Pebble smart watch to Elon Musks Tesla electric cars. And to note, you could lay both those products stutters and backfires to get their products to launch on time over top of what JJP has experienced.

We are the beta testers.

Happened with BBB as well. You have to cut JJP a little slack. Startup business. New everything. Takes time to get things off the ground. If games don't get ship by end of 2013 I will change my tune.

Yep, with Stern the early adopters on the machines are definitely the beta testers. With JJP the early adopters are the "funders". Both models suck.

The easiest way to avoid it is to not buy first/second run NIB if you are not willing to be one or the other. Eventually, enough people do it to where they can't sell NIB (or New in Air for JJP) machines anymore practices will either change or companies will go out of business.

I am wondering, how many games per week on average?

Thanks for an honest evaluation from someone with real experience. I agree 100%

Although I don't route games, I have seen the obvious decline in quality and speaking to those that DO route games they all say the same thing.

But the difference is hulk LE blows TFLE and TRON LE out of the water.

and X-Men...

Yep, your point was definitely valid from the beginning and I wasn't disputing it. I was just curious about what the price of the Avengers LE was after shipping. I thought it was right at $7k after shipping but wasn't sure. More of a "price confirmation" post than anything I guess.

LOL

Let's not get crazy there, big guy!

This is what I think he meant to say.

Very good point. When Solid State pins first came into being, Gottlieb, like their EM's had the best build quality and solid "feel". Bally was 2nd with Williams third. Stern was way out in fourth with a total junk feel. Same for reliability. Bally earned the best until Flash came out and then Williams went to the top. All the operators cared about was the cashbox so us lowly service technicians had to keep them running. And Williams were hard to keep running. But, easier than Sterns that broke down all the time.

code updates out of B/W were generally patches to fix problems, not to make a game have modes and things that were supposed to be there at the start but weren't. I don't think people would complain about stern updates if the games were code complete and when a bug was found fixed via an update.

You are arguing shipping "feature complete", I was commenting on "never needing an update", which RWH was espousing . I agree with shipping "feature complete", and that should be a requirement. They seem to have done that with Avengers LE. However I think even once a game has shipped new features or tweaks to existing features being added is a positive more than a negative, see recent AC/DC updates for examples, or ST:TNG's "poker with riker" mode.

TF yes, Tron, no. IMO.

Tron and Avengers play very differently. Avengers is deeper, Tron is faster. Tron has the third flipper, Avengers has a more interesting layout. I find myself turning on Avengers more often than Tron right now. I wouldn't say it "blows it out of the water", but I find it more satisfying.

You think maybe it being new has a little to do with that?

No. I have only had my Tron a few weeks longer than the Avengers, and it was down waiting for cleaning/parts and mods for most of that (was routed).

Gotcha.

I enjoyed playing Avengers a lot. There def seems to be "more to do" in AV...as Tron is more aboot nailing down a few things.

This is a great thread, as it proves we are capable of having a heated discussion without resorting to insults and name calling.

F*&( you Mod.

Ahhhh you knew it was coming

Probably got 15-20 plays on it...would lover some more.

I agree. The shot layout in Tron is quite basic. If you can master the Quorra/Gem combo, you're pretty much gonna rock the game. Where Tron really excels is the music, lights and sounds. As far as I'm concerned, it has no equal in this regard. I love what Gomez did with the playfield on Avengers. It's unlike anything else out there. It can be a bit clunky, but it's very cool nonetheless.

I like the layout too. Nice to have something that isn't just a rehash. I like the little touches like the placement of the shield & Hulk super jackpot targets.

I love that hulk super jackpot shot. Wish the game would go more nuts when hit. But still, very satisfying shot indeed.

I think I'm over my "more to do" phase...I'm in my "Play fast, lose fast, start again" phase. IMO the absolute best "more to do" games are TSPP and LOTR...it's hard to make a mode based "more to do" game that's as compelling as those...and I have those already. I thought Avengers was pretty fun but felt it might get monotonous over time like BDK or TF. That's one of the reasons I wasn't compelled to buy one, especially at the higher prices (oh crap I sound like Clay now lol)