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(Topic ID: 276181)

Avengers Infinity Quest Thread.


By Napoleon

3 months ago



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  • 498 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 hour ago by RipleYYY
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There are 2616 posts in this topic. You are on page 50 of 53.
#2451 45 days ago
Quoted from AUKraut:

It may take some trial and error to find the right combo of coil and coil strength setting, but once it has been figured out it will work. They do the same thing at Stern when they are engineering a game to determine the right coil and coil settings for a particular game, it just turns out that this time they may have missed it.

So far 4 out of 5 Sterns tested have fade after 45-60 minutes of play at stock settings, so either Stern's not doing a good job with that engineering or heat is an unavaoidable issue and they can only try to minimize it. I'm with the laws of thermodynamics on this one.

#2452 45 days ago
Quoted from twenty84:

What testing was done? Some objective measure of how flipper power is related to coil temperature would go a long way in these arguments.

Sounds like a great project - get to it!

I only care that there is too much heat over time and it causes fade in 4 out of 5 Sterns tested so far, and I expect to find it in most of them to some degree as I test more. I would like to know more on the why, but I'm not stepping through power settings because the result will be the same - excess heat over time, just longer or shorter time based on how much energy you're giving the coil to convert to heat.

And reducing the power to delay the fade is a crappy plan because it makes the pin not fun to play since the flippers feel and perform underpowered. You can't get around the laws of thermodynamics. Heat is a form of energy and the energy put into the coil equals the work performed (coil snap) plus heat. So dissipating the heat effectively is the answer and I've found it works great. I'd rather have the coil strength Stern designers chose and set for any specific pin last for the whole game, every game, and that's why the fans are the alpha and omega solution - they deliver that.

#2453 45 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

100% fixes the problem. In my temp testing you don't get the barest hint of fade until you get in the neighborhood of 130F. The flipper coil cooling kits keep the flipper coils below 110F, and often around 100F, depending on the machine. Nowhere near the whiff of fade territory.

Are the fans audible while playing, or are they silent?

#2454 45 days ago
Quoted from Soulstoner:

Are the fans audible while playing, or are they silent?

They're the same fans from the quiet fan plug n play kits, so they're really quiet, less than 13dB each, so two would add up to about 16dB total, which is very quiet. You can hear them if nothing is going, but they're pretty much impossible to hear while you're playing. If you have all three fans (2 flipper coil fans and 1 power supply fan, you're at 17.8dB total noise, which is still WAY less than the stock Stern power supply fan just by itself)

#2455 45 days ago

How does the 3rd flipper compare to the main flippers for fade, does that need a fan too for optimum performance?

#2456 45 days ago
Quoted from Sly_Old_Devil:

How does the 3rd flipper compare to the main flippers for fade, does that need a fan too for optimum performance?

I don't know at this point. I haven't tested 3rd and 4th flippers yet. I have already manufactured an adapter that turns a 2 flipper kit wiring harness into a 3 or 4 flipper kit harness, but I haven't had time to get the data on the 3rd and 4th flippers yet to see if that's even needed. It's on my to-do list, but I need to finish the Spooky cooling kits and then the JJP one before I get back to it. It's an easy add-on to the existing kit, so when I finish the testing I realize that there's some benefit to cooling them, too, I can sell an add-on kit that works with the existing 2 flipper kits.

#2457 45 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

So far 4 out of 5 Sterns tested have fade after 45-60 minutes of play at stock settings, so either Stern's not doing a good job with that engineering or heat is an unavaoidable issue and they can only try to minimize it. I'm with the laws of thermodynamics on this one.

"4 out of 5" - just curious where this data came from? Was it Stern? First I've heard of the issue being this profound.
Not sure if this includes TNMT but we have one on location and there's been no problem. Same goes for JP or older. Our AIQ arrives Friday - I guess we'll find out fast if this is true but until then I'll stay concerned.

Any pictures of the fans installed on a game? Sounds cheap, quiet and easy to install. I guess these are the fans: https://www.pinballlife.com/stern-spike-system-plug-n-play-quiet-fan-kit.html

13
#2458 45 days ago

Hot damn, I somehow turned this thread into a infomercial.

Screenshot 2020-10-20 152956 (resized).png
#2459 45 days ago

I don't know about improving flipper fade after playing long games, but since I installed Vireland's flipper cooling fans on my Stranger Things, I'm sinking the Demogorgon shot much more often and from the very first game when the coils supposedly aren't so hot. My guess is that I'm landing the ball in the mouth at least 5 times more often than I was previously. I wonder if anyone else has experienced this, or maybe my flipper coils were already damaged from excess heat?

#2460 45 days ago
Quoted from chuckcasey:

"4 out of 5" - just curious where this data came from? Was it Stern? First I've heard of the issue being this profound.
Not sure if this includes TNMT but we have one on location and there's been no problem. Same goes for JP or older. Our AIQ arrives Friday - I guess we'll find out fast if this is true but until then I'll stay concerned.
Any pictures of the fans installed on a game? Sounds cheap, quiet and easy to install. I guess these are the fans: https://www.pinballlife.com/stern-spike-system-plug-n-play-quiet-fan-kit.html

Shockingly (to me at least) Stern doesn't do this temp testing. The test data I've sent to the designers is news to them. They're aware of fade happening, but didn't know at what temps it shows up as bricked or missed shots (early fade) and when it becomes ramp rejects (145F-ish and up). So I'm building a database with real-world long play temp testing, one by one.

I've tested 5 Sterns. 4 of them have fade after extended play of 45-60 minutes. Stranger Things is severe after 45 minutes. TMNT is only noticible (for me) in that the left ramp backhand becomes almost impossible to backhand after about 45-60 minutes of continuous play when it hits the higher temps.

That link you posted the correct fan (Marco is NOT), but it doesn't have the mounting kit and fuse protected wiring harnesses. The kit looks like this:

https://pinmonk.com/collections/avengers-infinity-quest/products/tibetan-breeze-2-flipper-coil-cooling-kit

AIQ is REALLY SLOW to heat up. I did my normal testing for 60 minutes and only reached mild fade, but Karl Deangelo had enough fade that he couldn't make the marvel ramp after 2 hours of play, so I am re-testing with a two hour continuous play to see what the temps are.

#2461 45 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

Shockingly (to me at least) Stern doesn't do this temp testing.

I don't find it shocking considering this is the first of heard of any issues with heat and coils and flipper strength. I've owned many Sterns and B/W and DE etc. never had an issue with the flippers feeling weak after a long amount of gameplay. I have to adjust the leaf switch or clean the contacts on used older pins I've bought and change the odd coil but on already serviced used pin or NIB pin, never had any issues.

#2462 45 days ago
Quoted from Hazoff:

I don't find it shocking considering this is the first of heard of any issues with heat and coils and flipper strength. I've owned many Sterns and B/W and DE etc. never had an issue with the flippers feeling weak after a long amount of gameplay. I have to adjust the leaf switch or clean the contacts on used older pins I've bought and change the odd coil but on already serviced used pin or NIB pin, never had any issues.

Well, Lord of the Rings is FAMOUS for coil fade and that's Stern, so...

And in my temp testing where I have the luxury of watching the temps in real time as I play, I realized that people have probably been experiencing fade after as little as 30 minutes of play because it initially manifests as bricked or missed shots you usually can make. People think it's them when it's likely the beginnings of fade, especially if they're shots they can reliably make earlier in the game. You don't get the obvious fade with ramp rollbacks until 15-20 degrees after that point. Once you're dialed in to it, you can feel the transition from no fade to mild fade. I've tested myself by having my kids hold the temp gauge and calling out when I felt the mild fade temp was reached. I was only a couple degrees late in realizing it. So most people aren't experiencing severe fade, they're experiencing mild fade as bricked or missed shots without even realizing it's not them. And THAT is only if they're playing for 30-45 minutes continuously. So there are lots of variables, but if you play a long time, you will get fade on Stranger Things FOR SURE, TMNT for sure (backhanding the left ramp), and AIQ after very long sessions. Maiden, too, but I would call that moderate. Star Wars is the only one that had no fade in the 60 minute test of the machines tested so far.

#2463 45 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

Well, Lord of the Rings is FAMOUS for coil fade and that's Stern, so...

Really.
Maybe it happens and I don't even realize it. I had an hr long game of LOTR once and don't remember anything. I've have several Sterns with games lasting quite long TWD, ST, Maiden to name a few and never noticed this.

#2464 45 days ago
Quoted from Hazoff:

Really.
Maybe it happens and I don't even realize it. I had an hr long game of LOTR once and don't remember anything. I've have several Sterns with games lasting quite long TWD, ST, Maiden to name a few and never noticed this.

Lots more questions than answers about the "why" and "how" details of this, but it's pretty fascinating and completely unexpected area of pinball to explore. I hope to have more information than just which machines have fade and peak temperatures for long play sessions as this moves along.

#2465 44 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

100% fixes the problem. In my temp testing you don't get the barest hint of fade until you get in the neighborhood of 130F. The flipper coil cooling kits keep the flipper coils below 110F, and often around 100F, depending on the machine. Nowhere near the whiff of fade territory.

When my LE fell through you got me hooked up with a first run premium. Now it looks like I might need one of your fan kits. Hmm, pretty sneaky. It’s like you found me a good crack dealer and then are saying, ” if you want the best crack high, you’re gonna wanna buy one of my pipes to smoke it.” Lol.

In my best infomercial customer voice, “where might I purchase one of these kits?”

#2466 44 days ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

When my LE fell through you got me hooked up with a first run premium. Now it looks like I might need one of your fan kits. Hmm, pretty sneaky. It’s like you found me a good crack dealer and then are saying, ” if you want the best crack high, you’re gonna wanna buy one of my pipes to smoke it.” Lol.
In my best infomercial customer voice, “where might I purchase one of these kits?”

Haha. From one pin junkie to another...just trying to help out.

The fan kits are here on the pinside pinmonk store (if you scroll the ads on the bottom, it's often featured there).

Also at http://www.pinmonk.com

Pinball Life has stock as they are carrying them, too:
https://www.pinballlife.com/tibetan-breeze-two-flipper-coil-cooling-kit.html

#2467 44 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

They're the same fans from the quiet fan plug n play kits, so they're really quiet, less than 13dB each, so two would add up to about 16dB total, which is very quiet. You can hear them if nothing is going, but they're pretty much impossible to hear while you're playing. If you have all three fans (2 flipper coil fans and 1 power supply fan, you're at 17.8dB total noise, which is still WAY less than the stock Stern power supply fan just by itself)

Do the flipper fans have a thermostat or are they on full time? I am noticing some fade on the right flipper to black widow (left ramp), not bad though.

#2468 44 days ago

Does anyone know where I can find a flipper fade thread in the forum?

#2469 44 days ago

I just got my premium yesterday and I have to say I’m very pleased so far. This whole flipper fade is news to me. Might need to get your kit but don’t want to void warranty, how aren’t their engineers evaluating these factors? Craziness.

Avengers Infinity Quest ❤️

#2470 44 days ago
Quoted from RobbyIRL5:

Do the flipper fans have a thermostat or are they on full time? I am noticing some fade on the right flipper to black widow (left ramp), not bad though.

Always on.

#2471 44 days ago
Quoted from RobbyIRL5:

Do the flipper fans have a thermostat or are they on full time? I am noticing some fade on the right flipper to black widow (left ramp), not bad though.

Always on, but the total noise of both fans combined is only about 16.7dB, so you really have to listen to hear them if the game isn't being played. It's possible to add a thermostat to turn them on and off, but that would raise the cost/complexity. I wanted to not go too crazy on them.

I made the wiring harness modular so I can add components like this (and other bells and whistles I've tested) if wanted/needed in the future without having to buy a whole new kit.

#2472 44 days ago

I can’t hear them unless my head is inside the coin door and my game room is silent.

#2473 44 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

Always on, but the total noise of both fans combined is only about 16.7dB, so you really have to listen to hear them if the game isn't being played. It's possible to add a thermostat to turn them on and off, but that would raise the cost/complexity. I wanted to not go too crazy on them.
I made the wiring harness modular so I can add components like this (and other bells and whistles I've tested) if wanted/needed in the future without having to buy a whole new kit.

I’m sold . Thank you

#2474 44 days ago
Quoted from taz:

I don't know about improving flipper fade after playing long games, but since I installed Vireland's flipper cooling fans on my Stranger Things, I'm sinking the Demogorgon shot much more often and from the very first game when the coils supposedly aren't so hot. My guess is that I'm landing the ball in the mouth at least 5 times more often than I was previously. I wonder if anyone else has experienced this, or maybe my flipper coils were already damaged from excess heat?

Same here

#2475 44 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

Haha. From one pin junkie to another...just trying to help out.
The fan kits are here on the pinside pinmonk store (if you scroll the ads on the bottom, it's often featured there), or on pinmonk.com.
Pinball Life will have (limited at first) stock soon as they are carrying them, too.

Damn, I not only bought the flipper fans but the power supply fan too. You done sold me the pipe and the lighter.
But seriously, fan noise drives me nuts. I hate hearing the fan go off in my computer. I have a 3 year old, so when I play pinball at night I have to turn the volume way down and I know that spike 2 fan would grind on me.

#2476 44 days ago
Quoted from vicjw66:

Damn, I not only bought the flipper fans but the power supply fan too. You done sold me the pipe and the lighter.
But seriously, fan noise drives me nuts. I hate hearing the fan go off in my computer. I have a 3 year old, so when I play pinball at night I have to turn the volume way down and I know that spike 2 fan would grind on me.

Power supply fan noise is TERRIBLE on Spike2. I do think it's GREAT news that Gomez is FINALLY on record that he and Stern are taking the fan noise issue in the power supply seriously and looking to address it. I just hope it's not a half step or worse, going to an ultra-crappy no-name power supply vendor like AP did to save 15 or 20 bucks. Fingers crossed he directs Stern to do it right.

Oh...and thanks for your support!

#2477 44 days ago
Quoted from chuckwurt:

Nothing fixed the fade issue except for vireland ’s fans.

Well, any good fan will generally fix the issue but Vic's kits are much nicer than the computer case fans we've been hanging off the flipper brackets over the years. It's nice to see a good turnkey solution to this problem so more people can take advantage of active cooling.

#2478 44 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

Always on, but the total noise of both fans combined is only about 16.7dB, so you really have to listen to hear them if the game isn't being played. It's possible to add a thermostat to turn them on and off, but that would raise the cost/complexity. I wanted to not go too crazy on them.
I made the wiring harness modular so I can add components like this (and other bells and whistles I've tested) if wanted/needed in the future without having to buy a whole new kit.

I’ve heard adding something electronic voids the warranty... so I’ll just say that hypothetically if I had gone through the super easy installation of these tonight and then hypothetically just finished playing for two hours straight without a break and had no issues when previously I’d noticed fade after about 45 minutes to an hour, then hypothetically I’d say amazing job on these and add a Pin Monk keychain to my game keys because these things are like having another Avenger power in the game!!! Hypothetically I’d also say Stern should donate their “Play Strong” slogan to these fans.

Really awesome and brilliantly simple solution and it makes such a noticeable difference. Made it through Black Order multiball and several other multiballs after playing for an hour, whereas a couple nights ago multiballs after an hour of play made it bad enough that I shut it down for the evening. Hypothetically

7D15AC8F-A529-4125-B87C-98848519CAAA (resized).jpeg
#2479 44 days ago
Quoted from EaglePin:

I’ve heard adding something electronic voids the warranty... so I’ll just say that hypothetically if I had gone through the super easy installation of these tonight and then hypothetically just finished playing for two hours straight without a break and had no issues when previously I’d noticed fade after about 45 minutes to an hour, then hypothetically I’d say amazing job on these and add a Pin Monk keychain to my game keys because these things are like having another Avenger power in the game!!! Hypothetically I’d also say Stern should donate their “Play Strong” slogan to these fans.
Really awesome and brilliantly simple solution and it makes such a noticeable difference. Made it through Black Order multiball and several other multiballs after playing for an hour, whereas a couple nights ago multiballs after an hour of play made it bad enough that I shut it down for the evening. Hypothetically [quoted image]

I was super careful with the design, which is why there's a 1A fuse and a schottky rectifier diode to prevent bleed back to the node board in case something catastrophic happens on the fan ends (coil arcs to the fan and blows it out or something, I dunno, basically planned for coil-pocalypse). So, hypothetically, you don't have anything to worry about if you installed it. I was as careful as possible and tried to think ahead.

One tip for people ordering just the cooling kit alone. You get free shipping at $100, so add something to the cart that's cheap you want that will put you over $100 and take the free shipping. I put keychains in the fan kit orders where people paid full shipping instead of doing that because it makes me feel bad that they could have had free stuff instead of paying shipping for nothing when they were so close to $100. At least that way they get a cool keychain out of it.

Thanks for the (hypothetical) support.

#2480 44 days ago

I hope this isn't off topic it what seems to becoming a flipper coil cooling thread, but I'm curious how many people play the Battle Royale mode on their games? If you hold in both flippers for a few seconds before starting a game it will let you select it. Talking to a few fellow owners it seems many don't even know it is there. I recently did a stream where I mostly played this mode:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/774219479

#2481 44 days ago
Quoted from twenty84:

I hope this isn't off topic it what seems to becoming a flipper coil cooling thread, but I'm curious how many people play the Battle Royale mode on their games? If you hold in both flippers for a few seconds before starting a game it will let you select it. Talking to a few fellow owners it seems many don't even know it is there. I recently did a stream where I mostly played this mode:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/774219479

So it's a kind of Boss Rush where you fight each of the bad guys in a row?

#2482 44 days ago

Few picks of my pre with mirror blades,I had them on hand until I found some art but I am keeping them in the game

image (resized).jpgimage (resized).jpg

#2483 44 days ago
Quoted from rockrand:

Few picks of my pre with mirror blades,I had them on hand until I found some art but I am keeping them in the game
[quoted image][quoted image]

i often prefer art innerblades, but when there's a lot of (metal) ramps in a pin, the mirrors are top !

#2484 44 days ago
Quoted from rockrand:

Few picks of my pre with mirror blades,I had them on hand until I found some art but I am keeping them in the game

Wow that looks great.

#2485 44 days ago
Quoted from rockrand:

Few picks of my pre with mirror blades,I had them on hand until I found some art but I am keeping them in the game
[quoted image][quoted image]

The mirror blades look awesome. They completely change the whole appearance of the game. They add illumination to the playfield. Nice one.

#2486 44 days ago

Yeah mirror blades are great, they make the playfield seem so much bigger

#2487 44 days ago

Wow. Mirror blades look glorious on this one! Might have to pick up a set now. Damn you!

#2488 44 days ago
Quoted from rockrand:

Few picks of my pre with mirror blades,I had them on hand until I found some art but I am keeping them in the game
[quoted image][quoted image]

Quoted from RipleYYY:

i often prefer art innerblades, but when there's a lot of (metal) ramps in a pin, the mirrors are top !

Quoted from cloggedDrain:

Yeah mirror blades are great, they make the playfield seem so much bigger

Dagnabbit!! That does look fantastic.....Just got the shipping confirmation on the Tiltgraphics art blades and then you post those pics.......aarrrrggghhh!!!

#2489 44 days ago

my game comes tomorrow(premium). Would really like to know when accessories are available for order. Want art blades, armor, and shooter knob

#2490 44 days ago
Quoted from mbrave77:

my game comes tomorrow(premium). Would really like to know when accessories are available for order. Want art blades, armor, and shooter knob

Get mirror blades

#2491 43 days ago
Quoted from PinSinner:

The mirror blades look awesome. They completely change the whole appearance of the game. They add illumination to the playfield. Nice one.

Looks like he has Pinstadium lighting as well, so not all illumination from the mirror blades.
I do like mirror blades - I put them on my ID4.

#2492 43 days ago
Quoted from twenty84:

I hope this isn't off topic it what seems to becoming a flipper coil cooling thread, but I'm curious how many people play the Battle Royale mode on their games? If you hold in both flippers for a few seconds before starting a game it will let you select it. Talking to a few fellow owners it seems many don't even know it is there. I recently did a stream where I mostly played this mode:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/774219479

I love it, great practice.

#2493 43 days ago
Quoted from rockrand:

Few picks of my pre with mirror blades,I had them on hand until I found some art but I am keeping them in the game
[quoted image][quoted image]

Do you like the look of the speaker foam in front of the lit rings? I don't know and it really never crossed my mind that people may try that until I saw someone else do it. Believe me, I think up and try some crazy things with the speaker lights. The speaker foam in front of the lit rings makes me think of a panty ho stretched over them. Don't get me wrong...if you are going with the fully lit grill type speaker lights, I generally like the speaker foam left in there, but with just the area around the speakers lit up... it looks like my eyes aren't focusing correctly. I guess because I am just used to seeing the uncovered speakers when they are lit that way.

Doug (SpeakerLightKits.com)

PS: This picture is also a fine example of what my Deluxe 5.25" Speaker Light Kits (Type 13) look like without any speaker surrounds installed. Not bad.

Foam Example (resized).jpg

#2494 43 days ago
Quoted from DugFreez:

Do you like the look of the speaker foam in front of the lit rings? I don't know and it really never crossed my mind that people may try that until I saw someone else do it. Believe me, I think up and try some crazy things with the speaker lights. The speaker foam in front of the lit rings makes me think of a panty ho stretched over them. Don't get me wrong...if you are going with the fully lit grill type speaker lights, I generally like the speaker foam left in there, but with just the area around the speakers lit up... it looks like my eyes aren't focusing correctly. I guess because I am just used to seeing the uncovered speakers when they are lit that way.
Doug (SpeakerLightKits.com)
PS: This picture is also a fine example of what my Deluxe 5.25" Speaker Light Kits (Type 13) look like without any speaker surrounds installed. Not bad.
[quoted image]

But how much cooler do they run without the foam?

#2495 43 days ago

In the pictures, I think I like the soft look with the foam better. I might pop my foam covers back on the game that has your light kit to see if it's better in person.

#2496 43 days ago
Quoted from vireland:

But how much cooler do they run without the foam?

Love it.

Seriously though, without the foam. Looks "blurry" with. Excited to get my kit from you next week hopefully Doug.

#2497 42 days ago
Quoted from DugFreez:

Do you like the look of the speaker foam in front of the lit rings?

IMO with foam. Might be different in person. I think the foam adds a field of focus effect, similar to the effect that is used in photography. Good question though I think it will vary with personal preferences, pretty evenly.

#2498 42 days ago
Quoted from rockrand:

Few picks of my pre with mirror blades,I had them on hand until I found some art but I am keeping them in the game
[quoted image][quoted image]

Mirrors look so much better imo. Great choice.

#2499 40 days ago

Got my LE Number 68 yesterday. Unboxing was today....

What a fantastic game. Great flow, fantastic ramps. Best stern Pin ever

Captain Marvel ramp is a must have.

#2500 40 days ago
Quoted from Phillyaudio:

Got my LE Number 68 yesterday.

So close...

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