JJP may be in a situation where they need to file an Interpleader action.

That means they deposit the money received from the Oz Distributor and let them and their customers fight over who gets the money.

Cardfelon. Apparently AussieArcade, the Australian pinball forum is sponsored by Bumper Action. That's what I hear, I dont use it. I think AA won't take any slander of Bumper Action at all. That's just what I heard.

According to posts in the other thread, posting anything on this topic in the Australian forum earns the person a lifetime ban. I have not checked that info because I already spend more time on the net than I need to. Some have even suggested legal threats. I will be happy when the people down under get their pins. That is the only good outcome.

And how is that going to happen if the distributor never forwarded the entire amount to JJP?

I am not involved in this in any way and have simply been following it on both sites but I don't think
this istrue from what I've seen, i'm not sure where this has come from but there is discussion on the AA forums and the mods have stated that they will remove any speculative or rubbish threads on the subject. The "sponsorship" as far as I've read is only $50. They are simply trying to keep the thread readable and only allow up to date real information as the situation currently seems to be very much a he said\ she said affair.

Right now bumper say they have provided JJ with everything he needs, JJ say they haven't. Noone is sure on funds either. Rather than have numerous people post their take on who's in the right or wrong AA is only allowing posts with legitimate contact or info.

The best bet at this stage for buyers would probably be to contact both JJ and bumper and wait and see what happens. If neither party helps you then it's probably best to consult a lawyer or an ombudsman for fair trade or something.

Eh that's why I said apparently, but thanks for the info pinmanguy. It's just a cluster f$@k really, thankfully I have no stakes in this. So glad I went through different distros to source my WOZECLE. PHEW!

THis is not exactly true. JJP demonstrated some culpability in the matter when they decided to take the deposits on approx. 75 machines and convert those into hard orders for 25 machines. It is my understanding that Bumper took about $450k from buyers and forwarded about $150k to JJP as deposits. WHen Bumper couldn't come up with the remainder, JJP converted the deposits into orders for 1/3 of the machines. This created an impossible situation for 2/3 of the buyers that had already paid.

My numbers may be wrong, but the idea is the same. I've been following this from the perspective of the Australian insolvency, but to slam the OP for trying to assemble a list of victims is bull. But that's just how these boards go. Just ignore the JJP fanbois and whiners.

The order was ~450k total, the amount received by Bumper is not known. Not all the machines have been paid according to a post earlier by a buyer there.

It has been suggested that JJP converted the orders, not confirmed. According to new Bumper, JJP has said they are trying to get customers machines.

But is what you're saying true either? Can you prove that Bumper took in $450k and not just $150k? Can you say for a legal certainty that Bumper themselves did not request their order be changed?

For example, if Bumper did take in $450k and then paid $150k to JJP, if JJP began having doubts that the remaining funds still existed after all the ownership/name changes and requested proof of the remaining $300k funds in trust and Bumper was unable to do so, they might've been asked whether they wanted no games and their money back, or as many games as the amount already paid would support.

Remember, it's Bumper that took orders from customers and then secured deposits on ~70 machines. JJP's direct customer is Bumper, not the ~70 end users. For example, in my day job I'm a registered Intel dealer. If I order 100 CPUs and then change my order to 50... is it Intel's job to phone me up and question what those other 50 CPUs were for and then insist that I buy them because my customers might need them?

I should also probably note that JJP has requested several times over the past year or so that Bumper's direct customers contact him, and I've seen it posted in the WOZ forums and I'm pretty sure someone has relayed that message in the Australian forums. JJP clearly was never privy in the past to Bumper's customer list, so they could not know which of those ~70 machines were fully paid, partially paid, never paid, going out on location, going to sit in a warehouse for the next three years to appreciate in value...

Yes, right now this would appear to be a bad situation. But without any hard facts, it's all nothing more than guesswork.

What about receipts. If all 70 buyers were paid in full to Bumper and JJP can prove only partial payment. ( Which I sure Jack can if that is the case. ) He shipped what he was paid for not by buyer but by payment.

The second question that should be asked is, were the games direct shipped . If they were shipped to bumper to distribute that would indicate Jack would have had no knowledge of what was paid in full on which games and buyers that picked up the games would have made payment in full at that time.

Just a thought.

Just to clarify. I was given a lifetime ban from Aussie Arcade for a post I made on Pinside!!!

If JJP still can. As I pointed out earlier, this may be out of Jack's hands what can or can't be done.

The legal part in Australia may want any money refunded to pay off other creditors. If there was any sent to JJP.

You still haven't posted who is handling the legal end in Australia and who to contact there.

I'm not saying to not contact Jack, but to contact who is in charge in Australia because I'm sure they will be acting on Australian law and I think that would come first.

LTG : )

I am a long standing member of Aussie Arcade and I can say that they DO allow discussion of this topic, it's just that the topics sometimes go waayyy off topic. There are threads on this now.

Yes Bumper is a sponsor of the site but sponsorship does not equate to ownership nor dictatorship. To be a sponsor on the site you have to pay an allotted amount and that gives you your own section on the forum where you post your own news and items for sale etc etc. I have my own section on the site too for items I make and sell. It does not make me a God on the forum.

Until Jamie came to Bumper they have always restricted to not posting anywhere on the site unless it was in their own section and definitely NOTHING about WOZ until yesterday.

As for members being banned for things related to WOZ, this is BS. They were banned because they were generally shit stirrers on the site. They may have joined with good intentions but they soon show their true colours once they get 'settled in'. I believe a few ex AA members came to Pinside and they have been banned from here too. So there you go

BTW, I am not site admin nor moderator. AA is a great site full of great people and friends so don't believe everything you read on the internet no matter who writes it.

Wow!! This is like watching two monkeys f#%&ing a goat. You really don't want to watch, but you can't help yourself!! Grab some popcorn and Shasta!!

Right on Spacies.

LJ, Have you paid in full or just a deposit?

It's not always like eating icecream sorry.
If they do not like your post, They will delete it! and have closed threads before regarding WOZ.
Banning people for no real reason other than they did not like what they had to say.
It's only another persons opinion.(No need for Ban) Sorry

AussieArcade is a fairly laid back site, you have to be a grade A troll to get banned from the forum

As for the topic at hand, I feel sorry for the guys involved
few people can afford to loose $8000

It's a shame PopBumperPete,
I cannot see all of Bumpers customers getting their WOZ's

Bit of a poor comment.Treat it as a joke cos it's not happening to you.

Thanks for the endorsement Pete. grade A troll am I? Feel free to post any of my contributions on AA here and demonstrate your point.

AA is not a forum in the true sense. Its' moderators act more like censors. In my case, banning me for life for a post I made on another forum? Whatever.

They even state that they won't allow speculation etc. and will wait for confirmation. Well, in this case, many people were denied information that could have assisted them in getting their money out of Bumper before it was too late. I know of one person who used the information from Pinside and successfully received his refund (less $1250) from Bumper on Monday August 26 - the day before the announcement from Bumper that they were parting ways with JJP and directed all of their customers to chase a business that they had no relationship/dealings with.

My sincere congratulations to Robin and his team of moderators for showing that the greater good of the pinball community was best served by allowing people their freedom of speech.

Yes, new account and first time poster. I'm one of the unlucky ones involved in all this.
LJ is right, WOZ buyers here in Australia need to contact Jack with name, payment details receipts etc. Jack knows nothing of who has paid what, even though he has been requesting these details for months, from the old Bumper and now the new Bumper. They have both repeatedly refused these requests. If we can find out who has paid what then we can find out how much money is missing, if any. And then take the appropriate action/s.

The liquidator of the old Bumper has stated that the new Bumper is responsible for all deposits and full payments for the WOZs. It is part of the contract of sale between old and new Bumpers. The new owner knows this and has stated in emails to WOZ buyers that he took this responsibility on.
But now he is putting it all back on to JJP and trying to walk away. According to consumer laws here, if money is paid for a product that isn't delivered in the time promised, refunds are to be given in full if requested. It is up to new Bumper to do that, not JJP or anyone else. New Bumper should've asked their customers what they wanted before sending their latest email putting everything back to JJP. And they won't answer phone calls or return messages, doors shut yesterday, although they have time to update their Facebook page. Yep, their priorities are in order.

Old and New Bumper have repeatedly misled their customers. Not only in the latest email telling us JJP now has all information about who has paid what but they have told us more than once that everything is in order and going well even when Jack had told them he would cancel most of the LE orders if he didn't receive some more money. I'm not saying whether more money should've been paid or not, but none of this was discussed with the customers. Emails or phone calls should've been made asking what we wanted at that point - should more money be paid or did people just want to cancel their order and get a refund. Basic customer service.

Now New Bumper is trying to run from their responsibilities. How they expect to keep customers or gain new ones with behaviour like this defies logic. The pinball/amusement industry isn't big in this country - not only have they upset 70+ customers, but the entire industry knows about it.

True.. AA wont take any slander of Bumper at all.. seems members are getting banned for speaking or raising questions.. Australian Pinball Forum kicked Bumper off ages ago. Nothing is on AP about it due to litigation reasons.. until the truth is out both forums have to tread carefully for legal reasons.. Bumper are still trading as normal under the new name it would seem, the liquidation was to rid the new company of the old companies responsibilities. Rumours have been rife here since late last year about non payments to Jack but payments made to Bumper.. rumour upon rumour...... I have heard and I repeat HEARD that the deal was made with jack.... deposits taken and also the profit for making the deal and the rest sold as an ongoing concern.. after that is a shit fight... what does need to now happen is a solution to this mess as after all Jack did declare Bumper as a distributor and that buying through them was buying with confidence as they would have distribution rights to parts and technical back up should anything go wrong... the chain is now broken but the first link remains... doesn't matter if JJP got all the money or not.. it is they who told people to buy through their nominated distributor for ease of mind... does anything JJP say actually come true?

Most of us do not have our machine yet either. But we also do not have the distributor issue you guys sound like you have. Best of luck in resolving this issue.

I thought they were bought out? Have you contacted the person that will possibly take over? Have you already spoken to Jack? I would get a lot more facts before saying JJP and lawsuit. I would find out what is going to happen before getting a lawyer involved. Note to self it is always best to leave Batman at home =/ will only get you into more trouble.

Again good luck all involved.

They get $50 a year from each sponsor, so not really going to break the bank if they offend Bumper.

A thumbs down from an AA sycophant. Nice....

Your boys booted me out - please go and play with them and leave me alone.

Really.JPG

I think the issue may be related to the rumour that one of the moderators has been promised one of the Bumper WoZ machines that have arrived (but are awaiting a payment for shipping/customs/taxes that hasn't been paid)?

The promise of one of 4 (with no others coming) might make some people do strange things??

I'd love to know how he managed to get a refund. Wish I could've done the same. I know some of us were trying to contact Bumper the last few days but no luck. Phones were out of order for days and then no one answering them.

Refunds should still be given now. They are still responsible. Hopefully they'll realise that but I doubt it.

As someone who is currently in the creditor roll trying to collect from a bankrupt client, I can tell you I feel for you guys.

My first piece of advice would be to speak to the attorney representing the current Bumpers company. They will and have to tell you the truth as much as it may hurt. I was told several things by my client that were found to be totally untrue when I spoke with his attorney. Half-truths are what got him into financial trouble to begin with and I have a feeling the Bumpers situation may be the same.

The refund was obtained because the charade was still intact (just). Not sure they will be accommodating now.

Nonetheless, I would urge all customers to quote this fact when seeking their money. Clearly up until Monday, Bumper felt some obligation to refund and therefore accepted liability?

Still though, what a crock in that if you do get a refund, you forfeit $1,250 over it?!?!

Guess that's better than losing the whole amount though. ;(

That is crazy! I feel bad for this people who got screwed by Bumper.

The people refunded recently were from new money received by the demand letters sent out to pay your Balance owing.

So people who just paid over $9k in the past few weeks enabled a few people to get a refund

Rob peter to pay paul

A more modern term would be ponzi scheme. You need new money to pay old debt. Once the new money stops company goes bust. In Australia its called the bumper scheme.

Have you seen the new email Rob Farrell sent today? More of the same except now he's trying to say the old Bumper is responsible and not him. And that JJP will handle everything still. Bet that's news to Jack.

Accepted liability possibly. But it's straight forward in the sense that new Bumper is responsible as it's part of the contract of sale between them and old Bumper. Not sure why Rob Farrell is trying to deny this in any way, shape or form.

This guy sounds sleazy - it make take a lawyer to get it straight though. It's not a Ponzi -it's plain ripoff. You can't just buy a companies assets and forget about liabilities. What's to keep this from happening over and over? Can Bumper 2 become Bumper 3, etc. Bummer!

Exactly. He signed a contract but has selective memory.

And he's Bumper 3.

Man I sure feel bad for you guys in OZ who are in the hobby always paying the vig and now this trainwreck.
I am pretty sure I would be out of the hobby if I lived there pinball is supposed to be fun, I have sent parts to OZ before as well as to Canada and just won't do it anymore because of the BS involved.
The way it works over here is the little guy gets screwed.
I am going through a situation right now for 12 hundred bucks and the courts are not an option, days in court endless postponements and in the end all I will get is a judgement that doesn't even make decent toilet paper.
The parking for the courthouse is 2 hours so that means everyone files out and plays musical cars then we all go back in line for security screening or just pay the 65 bucks for the ticket.
Cheaper in the long run just to say goodbye to the 12 hundred rather than toss good money after bad.
I sure hope this works out for you guys and you all get your games, my magic 8 ball says it is doubtful.
Sounds to me like Jack has no choice but to sit on the games until there is a ruling from the courts over there and if it is anything like it is over here you will get nothing, a judgement isn't worth the paper it is printed on if the person is judgement proof.

I.e., can't squeeze blood out of a turnip.

I feel for all of you in Oz that have been victimized by this Bumper mess. I have "only" been waiting 17 months, but at least I know that there is a game waiting for me at the end. I can't imagine how bad it feels to be unsure of that. Hang in there guys - I hope it all works out somehow.

I got this message from AA member...

Thats not true mate.. One member had been banned for being a troll -
XXXX, he's the only one.

AA is as concerned as anyone else regarding this whole situation, AA is not
in Bumpers pocket, AA has not deleted threads. AA has only closed threads
(they are all still there in the public domain) that have ended in innuendo
and non substantiation.

So it seems that the "banned from mentioning it" rumours are just not true... people get banned from BOTH Australian forums for various reasons... its all part of the smooth running of a forum and what's being conveyed.
It is however easier to have the discussion of what has happened here rather than one of the Australian forums as both have to be very careful of whats being said in the public domain... its not so much a case of " Do not discuss".. more a case of " what are the facts?"

... Until Jack makes a statement none of us know and for those who have paid money for this charade it is a major concern.

F$%k, now I am agreeing with Retropin

_{Post edited by absocountry2 : Profanity edited}

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That is simply not true. No one has stopped discussion on this matter.

This is simply not true either. One person has been banned over this and it was for making outlandish and untrue statement after he was asked to pull his head in. There have been no posts removed on AA at all.