I'm fine with a remake too but remember what we learned about Churchill being fully in charge with MMr... you WILL keep what comes in the box no matter what.

A whole lot of MMr customers got stuck with factory second faded insert PF's and now have a machine worth less than the next customer. I know I wouldn't buy one with the faded inserts on the secondary market.

I won't mount some vocal campaign about it this time as if people didn't learn all they needed to know about this company LAST time... well it's hopeless.

But good luck to everybody regardless... (not sarcasm)

Yup. That's because you didn't get stuck with a defective PF on a MMr. People don't care until it happens to them.

That's how they got past the entire thing.

I agree the lit speakers really catch the eye and not in a good way. They probably thought this was a good idea to "add value" but maybe let the owners decide if they want that same, omnipresent cheap chinese color changing LED effect that is on even the cheapest kid's toys these days. Why compete with the color display in an dead area?

I'm strange anyways as I seem to be the only person who doesn't see the purpose of drawing the eye to a game's speakers.
Unless you simply MUST show off some badass speaker inserts you've found (understandable) then why bring attention to an area where there is absolutely nothing going on?

Never mind the extra glass reflection they add - to me this even hinders the gameplay but I'm the odd man out on this issue.

And I like LED mods generally... I'm hardly an anti-LED Luddite.

Hopefully you meant "pull UP"...otherwise his threats have gotten considerably kinkier

Thank you - there's a whole two of us then!

lol wise guy...maybe you could also put back the high voltage strobe board and bulb

I've grown to appreciate her manly jaw. I think she was ahead of her time...if you know what I mean.

Then you've never seen it in action. I couldn't go back to one without it either. Sure the gameplay is the same but without it... it's somehow well... sadder

No but I'll give it a chance. To be fair I'm not their target audience.

I dunno... they screwed quite a few people with the Mmr remake. Shipping faded factory second PF's to "valued customers" for *months* after being found out was pretty egregious. They only quit shipping them when they ran out or were shamed into stopping. "Valued customers" were forced to keep these inferior machines also.

It may not bother anyone else but I would never buy a product from this company. Not after seeing that behavior.

Well we *have* seen the CC and art already chipped off the PF on the FIRST day it was displayed

I don't think I've ever seen that on a machine's first reveal.

I was around when AFM came out and it took a long time for those holes to get chewed up... and they got a lot of play. Nothing like these new chip 'n peel PF's.

In fact I've still never seen an *original* MM have the CC cracking off in slabs like the one MMr that is a year old in the arcade.

I've seen them played down to the paint but 100,000 plays can do that.

But I doubt they are deliberately making them shitty... it may indeed be a newly-regulated CC formula they have to use (though nobody can point to the regulation or offer more than conjecture).

Man I miss those "re-import" days... I snagged some gorgeous machines from some undoubtedly chagrined Europeans but nobody forced them to sell I suppose. Sure a lot were in sketchy shape with their penchant for drilling ashtrays on to the sides but finding a flawless gem in a warehouse full of smoky machines is a memory I want to hang on to.

Is this what they call "revisionist history"??? Point us to the posts from now-happy owners that received populated PF's please.

lol Yeah that's a "fact" Figured that would be the response.

Glad we got that out of the way... hey I'd love to be proven wrong btw.

Yeah I'm sure he'd tell me anything I'd like to hear.

Well that is indeed proof...that all the others got screwed. I assume that is your point. Sure one poor guy had to actually PAY for an unpopulated PF. That particular character did post all kinds of contradictory stuff starting from when he was told that they had a "perfect" fix for the PF problem. Turned out later that was the cheap plastic sheet. We have NO idea what he got for his machine but if you think people would pay the SAME price for the obviously faded factory second ones that they would for a *decent* mmr you'd be mistaken. In fact any smart aftermarket buyer wouldn't buy a faded one at all... they would simply wait to get one of the unaffected ones. That's what I'd do anyways.

I don't blame him for selling it though.

Also I could care less about value comparisons between originals and remakes. Who would ever want to sell a nice original? I never would so I was delighted they made a remake because there were hardly any available for people that wanted one. And the quality was initially fine.

Then I watched a large group of their customers get stuck with machines worth less than what the first batch got and not ONE of them ever posted they got a "populated PF' swap.

What *really* said it all was the way they KEPT sending customers these faded PF's for MONTHS after it was reported by unhappy customers. Think they would keep shipping game after game if they knew they would then have to send out populated PF's to make things right? Of course not. The thin piece of plastic over the LED's was their idea of a fix.

But look obviously people are still going to buy even after that fiasco and I wish them well... hopefully the company got shamed enough by the incident and they won't ship that kind of product to customers again.

But people should be fully aware of the company's history and can look back in the threads to learn more. You don't want me ranting about it again so please quit baiting me... please

Never said it was the norm... just a large group that got stuck with them. If you watched that thread for months and months you know this.

I also didn't get screwed I bought mine back in 1997 and it's set in the same spot in my dining room ever since. Yeah the rugs ruined from the weight of it

I bought mine 16 years ago when the prices were reasonable... do people actually PAY this much for them even now or is that just what buyers like to try to ASK for them? I've learned in this hobby there is a big difference.

Hmmm G Gomez talking about "disinformation"... Mr "code every two weeks"??? Bet he wishes he could take that one back.

technical difficulties - do not adjust your TV

Fortunately for me TWD Prem has been perfect out of the box so no need for me to be "vociferous" about it (good word btw).
With the sky high prices of these things I figure this would be the last one for me anyways. I got lucky as I've always stated that it's a gamble when you open the Stern box. In several posts actually...and this was *before* the GB PF mess. I think TWD was the last Stern title that *didn't* have a boatload of issues to contend with.

I remember being apprehensive opening that box... not exactly the NIB experience you hope for.

Back in the day Stern DID send me an unpopulated PF for TSPP as mine was the last run and the silkscreen was giving out and leaving splotches on the PF. So they did do that... didn't charge me a penny for it either. So there's that anyways.

Thank god I didn't have a hard on for the GB theme. If I had gotten bit by a bad one EVERYBODY would have me on ignore by now Others did get vociferous (gotta use that word now) about it though and good for them for holding their feet to the flame.

Yeah I wouldn't risk a Stern right now myself but they are apparently sending out full PF swaps for their customers. Not even charging them $200 either. Personally I wouldn't want the hassle or anxiety going through this anyway after spending all that money.

I'd like them ALL to up their game and send out a quality product or at least fully stand behind it. I don't want to have to rely on the "benevolence" of a company to make me happy. I'd hate to hear what so many heard when they called about their faded PF... "falls within specs". Now *that* is something no unhappy customer wants to hear.

You have a good point but I don't think the whole "this company may be bad but this other one is worse" really inspires much confidence for the new buyer.

No offense but you posted all kinds of contradictory stuff, fought about it with everybody and then deleted most (if not all) of your posts. Ahh good times huh?

And after initially raving about how good their solution was going to be then you promptly sell it.
So I'm gonna stick with "we'll never know". It's not you in particular I just know how people like to puff up what they get when they sell something.

I don't blame you for avoiding the NIB hassle/pain... you were the first in the frying pan on that one.

I just wanted people to know the history of the company by doing a little research - I didn't mean to rehash the entire episode yet again. I'm sure most people will be fine.

I absolutely agree about smaller, fix it yourself stuff. Heck you have to *expect* that right out of the box. But when I saw the machine I found the faded inserts immediately apparent and I couldn't imagine others not seeing this as well (if you ever had to sell the machine for example).

Like being stuck trying to sell a multi-ghosted GB.

So some got stuck with machines worth less than the "next guy" and there wasn't a thing they could do about it except hear it "fell within quality tolerances" (or some variation of this buzz-speak).

But most did get a quality machine for home use (the clear chipping right off of the one in the arcade thread is eye-opening though)
and I'm hoping most will be fine with this one. It's a fun machine indeed...

Hey why not get the green trim... with the saucers constantly flashing between green and red it looks like Christmas every time you play. Good or bad thing depending on how festive a person you are.

It wouldn't bother me as it would remind me of Xmas with my kids every time I'd fire it up.

I'm still amazed that people are happily sending in their money on a product that had the CC and art chipping off the very *first time it was shown* ??? Good luck with that... you'll need the 10 part Cliffy set and some faith.

I still find it hard to believe *anybody* would pay close to that much for an AFM. I have a damn near perfect unfaded one I bought 15 years ago and I wouldn't think it would go for anywhere near that. And it's fully LED'ed with the Bill Ung kit, etc.

Silly market indeed if what you say is true...

Me too.

One difference is at least they are attempting to send out full PF swaps.

Plus their particular problem is that their PF's usually didn't show the problems until shortly after the owners started playing them.

This is in contrast to continuing to build and ship machines with a PF you *know* your current customers are unhappy about and knowing you won't be accepting any back for a return or swap.

Oh well...

Well of course you'd get screwed with something like that. I would think you could still find nice originals being sold by private sellers floating around out there. And what they are asking is not what they are going to get... you negotiate. You have to be patient... watch Mr Pinball, all that stuff.

In the old days that's what we called the "thrill of the chase"

I was a big fan of Mmr when the first batch went out. Read the thread to see what happened next.

post #29

And you're a guy that WORKS for Churchill... unless you just collect users ticket #'s for fun. Come clean dude

Man I wouldn't ever BOTHER bringing this up to this crowd. They don't want to hear it... just want to send $$$ in without really seeing them first. Some will have to learn the hard way I suppose.

If it's like last time some will get "good" ones... others will get the one's that will be worth less. All will end up having to keep them.

Hey I HOPE this will not be the case but like yeah - I'm being a broken record I suppose. Good luck guys.
I actually mean that.

You brought a magnifying glass to the show?

Hey man I wish you the best of luck - seriously. You can try to protect the edges... they sure aren't alone in the chipping dept but let's hope you don't get the "fade". That's a little harder to fix...but you'll probably be fine.

It's totally different with Mmr. Stern's problems showed up AFTER people received and played the machines. Churchill claimed they would "fix" their PF problem but kept assembling and shipping machines with the faded PF for MONTHS after that. Unbelievable.

Knowing full well they would refuse to replace any of them. If you don't see the difference in ethics here I don't know what more to say.

I was a fan of the MMr project from the start as my posts show... I was hardly a "hater" (like some competing retailers may have been). I only got upset when they KEPT shipping faded PF's to customers.

You guys may think that's great business... fine. And yes MOST Mmr's were fine. I've never said otherwise.

This sounds believable but my TWD from a year ago has zero chipping - even in the unprotected shooter lane or outhole. I also haven't heard of chipping on the Hobbit or RZ.

I also haven't heard any of the PF restorers complaining of having to use "new" super chipping CC.

You may be correct but it would be NICE to have someone VERIFY that there is a new regulation and that all the old products from just a couple years ago are now gone off the shelf and unavailable.

Not trying to be combative... I'm genuinely interested myself. Between the MMr chipping we saw in the arcade thread and Stern's recent troubles it makes you wonder.

Yeah - manufactured by the same people.

Warning people about the MMr buyers that got stuck with faded PF's IS being positive. You going into hiding in that thread during that entire time was not.

Pretending it never happened doesn't help the community does it? That's my only point... I don't expect to scare people off as they don't want to hear it and simply want to send cash now. And yes I expect MOST (again) will be fine.

But maybe... just maybe... (spoken like Louis CK) ...they just *might* want to go slow and see how happy the first batch of owners are after they open the box? Why not a little patience after the last go-round? (crickets I know)

Well we'll have to agree to disagree. You keep trying to bring in other companies as if it makes Churchill seem the norm.

Knowingly shipping those faded PF's for months to customers even AFTER people had initially complained bitterly about them told me all I needed to know about the company. The "fix" (a thin piece of plastic to dim all the LED's to hide the mess) just reinforced it.

"reinforced"...hmmm Isn't that the word Stern couldn't spell?

I'm sure he knew what I meant

It's all good - everyone by at least now knows the history of the company (obviously a lot here didn't) and can buy with a little more insight behind them.

I'm sure most will do fine. Believe it or not I hope *everybody* does fine. AFM's a great game and if it's quality matches the earlier and later MMr's then I think people will be happy.

Now unless someone else wants to convince me that it's just dandy to keep sending out lesser-quality products to customers for months... I will bid thee all a fond farewell.

Man please quit this "hypocrisy" BS. I'm hardly a defender of any of the company names you keep bandying about.

But I can say at least Stern is doing full PF swaps for their affected customers... something Chuchill wouldn't even consider for their obvious factory second PF's.

So I'll be the hypocrite (somehow) and you'll be the classic apologist...deal? So life can go on? You guys are wearing me out (which I suspect is the plan)

The center targets are supposed to flash so you can nail 'em. Yeah it would be nice if the backglass would also go dark during this cool mode but the original doesn't either

It would also be nice if you could earn this rather than a random award. Otherwise when you try to show it to a friend it's "wait...wait...we'll get it! I'm sure it'll happen!" And then you lose the last ball.

I'm just surprised anyone would actually argue against my only point: That it's bad business ethics to keep *knowingly* shipping faded PF's to your "valued" customers knowing full well you wouldn't replace them and that those customers would have a lesser example of a great title.

No one disputes that's what happened and you want to argue that?

I really don't understand your confusing apologist tactics to be honest... for one thing I've never defended ANY of your Stern laundry list and if some people ended up with ghosted PF's and refused replacements I would say that's JUST AS BAD.

Does that make you happy? I already said this earlier anyways... but I'll keep saying it if you like.

In case you didn't notice... I'm *trying* to quit talking about this.

Well I'll know what to do next time I attempt to show it off then - thanks!

Last time I DID manage to get it going with a friend another guy then walked in (not knowing what was happening)
and then TURNED THE LIGHT ON in the room. Doh!!

Yeah and I have to rewire the flipper and rear PF strips I have currently wired to 12v. Unlike the spotlights I have they obviously don't turn off with the GI for strobe multiball and they truly do their best to ruin the mood.

I hadn't played the game for a while so when I LED'ed the heck out of it I obviously didn't think that one through.

I assume they are not blind and have *some* quality control. But even if they didn't... the moment people started squawking about the inserts they said "we'll have a fix". This was early on... people waited for news as Churchill KEPT shipping these PF's. Then even though people groaned about the silly "fix" to hide the problem... they then KEPT shipping these PF's for months until they ran out of them or were shamed into stopping.

I was there from the start - you may not like it but it WAS "black and white". You want to muddy it up dragging in other companies and now you want to muddy up the timeline. I'd think you were a shareholder if they had them.

Like I've said repeatedly... they were good before this and good after this. I'd think my unbiased view would make you happy.

I'm perfectly happy with the hypocrite and apologist labels so I'm glad to let it go.

In fact I'm missing a shitty episode of "Bar Rescue" right now for this. Shame on you