Think about where you are, and the current economic situation surrounding you.
It is not particularly that beneficial right now.
European and overseas markets are not the USA, which I clearly stated.
I am not evaluating your market at the present time because I am not living overseas like I did for nearly 12 years, including serving side by side with several of the British regiments and in your own country.

I knows others that are, and are buying machines as quality permits and much lower prices that the United States.
The problem is that the reimport era dried up a lot of the early BLY/WMS games from the 1990s at the end of 2005.

mmrow (resized).jpg

Where?

I'm not just talking about Europe/UK which is different owing to supply for sure. Looking at the US market as I have the ability to import if I chose to I don't see what you are seeing.

If someone wants a remake badly enough they will pay for it, if someone wants an original badly enough, they will pay for it, on MM I wanted a remake but didn't want to wait for it to be built, I do agree that NIB in stockrooms limits the upper price for the remakes.

CGC are focusing on the games that have limited supply for a good reason, they know that people will take the easy route of having a NIB without having to kick the tyres on an original and the pain it takes to find a good one.

However, there is as much of an art of knowing how to sell and when, thats why we see Star Trek:TNG's going for silly money here in the UK now. I think its easy to see patterns in things like this, however when you dig deep the patterns don't always (but I agree sometimes) stand up to scrutiny. At the end of the day though, you spend your money and you take your choices. I've got a MB and I'll happily sell it and buy a remake just because the remakes have fantastic build quality in my view. My local distributor tells me he has had the lowest level of pain from MMR than any other game for almost ten years, a lot of people value that (I certainly do .

The market is changing as more people want machines; i wouldn't call them collectors in the traditional sense but collectors they are.

Cheers,
Neil.

it hasn't.

Man I miss those "re-import" days... I snagged some gorgeous machines from some undoubtedly chagrined Europeans but nobody forced them to sell I suppose. Sure a lot were in sketchy shape with their penchant for drilling ashtrays on to the sides but finding a flawless gem in a warehouse full of smoky machines is a memory I want to hang on to.

Not only did they send out populated playfields the pricks who got them refused to return the populated original playfields, so I doubt they will do that again

Is this what they call "revisionist history"??? Point us to the posts from now-happy owners that received populated PF's please.

Nobody knows the cost, so they are either under selling or over selling, no distributor knows the pricing till 12 midday Friday.

Why they know who they are, just stating a fact

lol Yeah that's a "fact" Figured that would be the response.

Glad we got that out of the way... hey I'd love to be proven wrong btw.

I feel the 'classic' is the way to go on this. The other 2 models look silly from a backbox perspective, and don't get me started on the GBLE leftover armor. As the great Teekee once said...that dude should be fired....yesterday.

Black and stainless are also available

Yes, you said, you feel.

I look the new dmd very very very cool...

but, thats what i fell of course.

I feel the big screen with the steel or black trim is the way to go.

I would also request a play field that will not require a diffuser.

I am sure Doug will tell you who the people were

Yeah I'm sure he'd tell me anything I'd like to hear.

I'm happy to oblige.

Here is a guy who got a new playfield for $250 for his "I can't see my insert ink" complaining. He later sold the MMr for full price saying that there was no problem with it then went on to sell the playfield for $900.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/new-mmr-playfield-for-sale

It has the been said that the originals will always be more than the remakes but that statement may not be accurate. I do not have statistics that people on pinside love to put out there but I do know a thing or two about economics. One of the major forces that affect prices is supply and demand. Here is a poll showing the demand side of the MMr vs MM.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/nib-mmr-vs-average-original-mm

If the demand for MMr is more than the MM original and the supply is the same, it stands to reason that the MMr will ultimately be higher in price compared to the original. The reason MMr has not appreciated rapidly is because it is still in production. How can a pin be worth more if you can buy it brand new for MSRP? The demand is still being met. Since production will be stopping in the very near future that is when you typically see the price increase. At that point prices for an MMr will ultimately be higher than an original based on supply and demand.

Well that is indeed proof...that all the others got screwed. I assume that is your point. Sure one poor guy had to actually PAY for an unpopulated PF. That particular character did post all kinds of contradictory stuff starting from when he was told that they had a "perfect" fix for the PF problem. Turned out later that was the cheap plastic sheet. We have NO idea what he got for his machine but if you think people would pay the SAME price for the obviously faded factory second ones that they would for a *decent* mmr you'd be mistaken. In fact any smart aftermarket buyer wouldn't buy a faded one at all... they would simply wait to get one of the unaffected ones. That's what I'd do anyways.

I don't blame him for selling it though.

Also I could care less about value comparisons between originals and remakes. Who would ever want to sell a nice original? I never would so I was delighted they made a remake because there were hardly any available for people that wanted one. And the quality was initially fine.

Then I watched a large group of their customers get stuck with machines worth less than what the first batch got and not ONE of them ever posted they got a "populated PF' swap.

What *really* said it all was the way they KEPT sending customers these faded PF's for MONTHS after it was reported by unhappy customers. Think they would keep shipping game after game if they knew they would then have to send out populated PF's to make things right? Of course not. The thin piece of plastic over the LED's was their idea of a fix.

But look obviously people are still going to buy even after that fiasco and I wish them well... hopefully the company got shamed enough by the incident and they won't ship that kind of product to customers again.

But people should be fully aware of the company's history and can look back in the threads to learn more. You don't want me ranting about it again so please quit baiting me... please

So let me get this straight: original, working clean AFM games will sell for $8500 - $11,500 now?? I totally disagree.

Manic we have had this conversation before. I know that what happened to you sucked but you are the exception not the norm to the experiences that MMr owners have.

Never said it was the norm... just a large group that got stuck with them. If you watched that thread for months and months you know this.

I also didn't get screwed I bought mine back in 1997 and it's set in the same spot in my dining room ever since. Yeah the rugs ruined from the weight of it

You did not read the thread properly or completely.
That question was referring to MM versus MMr pricing and value, not AFM, as the person asked.
At no time did I specify a price range for AFM being over $11K for non-HEP examples.
They do sell for $8500 regularly in CQ condition.

There were convoluted questions that I attempted to clarify based on equal condition AFM for trades, but I will let market speculators do their own thing at this point, because it hopeless, and PinSide is full of people that wish to argue every single point made.

It is no wonder most of the people of the industry refuse to participate in these forums or already left.

Good luck folks.

“The problem with forums is there is a lot of disinformation, and a lot of uninformed opinions affecting what people actually believe. It is normal for forums. In any kind of hobby, go to their forums and blogs, and you will see something very similar. It is the nature of those environments, and it does not even have to be related to pinball machines.”

- George Gomez

I bought mine 16 years ago when the prices were reasonable... do people actually PAY this much for them even now or is that just what buyers like to try to ASK for them? I've learned in this hobby there is a big difference.

Hmmm G Gomez talking about "disinformation"... Mr "code every two weeks"??? Bet he wishes he could take that one back.

technical difficulties - do not adjust your TV

Mr. logorrhea is a poster child for hasty generalizations and cherrypicking history, aka confirmation bias. Yes, there will be a few big dollar collector MM's that a few people will want, low play and super minty (that will have to remain so to keep the high price). But the vast majority of MM pins fall below that. Let's actually look at facts (a relatively novel idea on Pinside). The Pinside marketplace and archive show us how prices have been going in the last 6-9 months or so.

MM prices are all over the place, both higher and lower than MMR. Recently, it has taken some big coin restores to get somewhat higher than MMR prices. Two recent HEP MM's fetched $10.5k and $11.5k. Many many higher priced MM's are archived unsold. Described as "fully restored" MM's are recently offered for less than $10k.

With MMR production ending and a few NIB still available in the marketplace, the original MSRP still provides the current focus for used prices. Even at that one sold for $11k showing the potential for a higher price ceiling. Lots of unsold litter the older archived posts. As the few remaining relatively available MMR NIB options disappear, the last thing that will happen is prices falling (it's basic economics of supply and demand).

As an example I wouldn't swop my original AFM for any of the AFMR models. Why? Original game, original playfield 9/10, original non faded screen printed cabinet, and game plays like new.

Manic has been grinding his axe against MMR vociferously and for what seems like forever. I hope if some PPS/CGC faded inserts are such a disaster that he is equally dismissive of Stern for their issues, lest he too be a hypocrite, such as
-shipping out mis-spelled playfields (even for replacements, lol),
-a laundry list of pf fixes in two of the most recent Stern releases (GB and BM66),
-xfassa's GB pf chipping after 20 plays and being denied replacement, not a "factory second" as he describes it,
-and the many other owners with chipped recent new Stern pf's who are not "qualifying" for the program, or as he describes it again, not a "factory second",
-ridiculously early code and ridiculously late code, and
-how about the GOT orbit "fix".

Anyone seen him railing against Stern?

I have a hard time thinking that you actually believe that.

In purchasing power parity terms (no other measure is relevant in the current discussion re: pricing of machines in different markets), the UK's GDP has fallen 15-20% in the past 18 months. Inflation is likely to surge. Wage growth looks like it will be heavily negative, in real terms. A crude measure of GDP is 'up'? Well, forecasts were revised up. Almost entirely sustained by obscene consumer credit expansion and subsequent or simultaneous spending. Something that isn't sustainable. If you believe that growth has exceeded what it would have been had there been neither a referendum in the first place, nor a vote to leave, I have no words for you.

If you want to use crude measures, then our economy was ~19th fastest growing in the EU last year. Given the huge devaluation, a potentially enormous divorce bill from the EU (depending on what happens, potentially over €100Bn) and a cloud hanging over our terms of trade not just with the EU, but virtually every large trading partner, this seems less than fantastic.

But go on, I'm sure blind optimism will keep the country "open for business", as people in the Government keep repeating ad nauseum.

Anyway, for said reasons, I don't see raising margins in the UK market as particularly likely at the moment, for CGC or PH their UK distributor.

Fortunately for me TWD Prem has been perfect out of the box so no need for me to be "vociferous" about it (good word btw).
With the sky high prices of these things I figure this would be the last one for me anyways. I got lucky as I've always stated that it's a gamble when you open the Stern box. In several posts actually...and this was *before* the GB PF mess. I think TWD was the last Stern title that *didn't* have a boatload of issues to contend with.

I remember being apprehensive opening that box... not exactly the NIB experience you hope for.

Back in the day Stern DID send me an unpopulated PF for TSPP as mine was the last run and the silkscreen was giving out and leaving splotches on the PF. So they did do that... didn't charge me a penny for it either. So there's that anyways.

Thank god I didn't have a hard on for the GB theme. If I had gotten bit by a bad one EVERYBODY would have me on ignore by now Others did get vociferous (gotta use that word now) about it though and good for them for holding their feet to the flame.

Yeah I wouldn't risk a Stern right now myself but they are apparently sending out full PF swaps for their customers. Not even charging them $200 either. Personally I wouldn't want the hassle or anxiety going through this anyway after spending all that money.

I'd like them ALL to up their game and send out a quality product or at least fully stand behind it. I don't want to have to rely on the "benevolence" of a company to make me happy. I'd hate to hear what so many heard when they called about their faded PF... "falls within specs". Now *that* is something no unhappy customer wants to hear.

You have a good point but I don't think the whole "this company may be bad but this other one is worse" really inspires much confidence for the new buyer.

Just for the record $8600 for the pin and $600 for the PF. After the MMR fiasco I'm out on all nib and in on older SS and 90s B/W maybe a few second owner proven sterns but definitely no more nib it's just not worth it better off waiting

No offense but you posted all kinds of contradictory stuff, fought about it with everybody and then deleted most (if not all) of your posts. Ahh good times huh?

And after initially raving about how good their solution was going to be then you promptly sell it.
So I'm gonna stick with "we'll never know". It's not you in particular I just know how people like to puff up what they get when they sell something.

I don't blame you for avoiding the NIB hassle/pain... you were the first in the frying pan on that one.

I just wanted people to know the history of the company by doing a little research - I didn't mean to rehash the entire episode yet again. I'm sure most people will be fine.

Vociferous

I'm not saying one company is bad but the other is worse, rather, these companies are reasonably good overall, though inevitable smaller issues pop up (which are addressed). It's a few people that latch onto the smaller issues and freak out, over and over, and over and over and over and over. Total broken record stuff.

It would be great to get PERFECT pinball games, but life isn't perfect and, like it or not, minor pinball issues happen consistently and universally. Look at all the recent releases, including GB, BM66, TWD, GOT, WOZ and TH, FT, TBL, etc (all had various minor issues). I see a pattern... that pretty much every new pinball release has had some minor issues, and consistently so. And frankly most all of those recent releases had more issues that MMR.

I do keep the major Stern playfield issues of large-scale ghosting and chipping (on a small number of pins) separate as that is not minor, but as expected they are fixing that with full replacements. And they should as it isn't a minor issue of faded ink on some inserts.

If anyone wants perfection, buy a known low play resale pin and skip the minor issues that may appear with NIB pins.

I've had great NIB experiences, including both Stern and PPS/CGC. I'd buy NIB from most every manufacturer, though I try to make an effort to buy later production run NIB machines. Let the early adopters find the inevitable issues and the manufacturers fix it. Frankly, PPS/CGC have the advantage of rebuilding a known product and these games have had even less issues than "new" new games.

In the end, the PPS/CGC experience is frankly no different than Stern, JJP, DP, Heighway, etc. People can do whatever they want, but at least be consistent about it.

And yes, Drewblood is full of toxic hypocrisy. He flushed his rep down the toilet and his insert story has to be seen to be believed.

I absolutely agree about smaller, fix it yourself stuff. Heck you have to *expect* that right out of the box. But when I saw the machine I found the faded inserts immediately apparent and I couldn't imagine others not seeing this as well (if you ever had to sell the machine for example).

Like being stuck trying to sell a multi-ghosted GB.

So some got stuck with machines worth less than the "next guy" and there wasn't a thing they could do about it except hear it "fell within quality tolerances" (or some variation of this buzz-speak).

But most did get a quality machine for home use (the clear chipping right off of the one in the arcade thread is eye-opening though)
and I'm hoping most will be fine with this one. It's a fun machine indeed...

No reason to puff it up at this point, it sounded like you wanted to know so I put the info out there. Everything was fully disclosed to the buyer and that's how it just ended up. The playfield was eventually sold to kruzman so if you feel the need to confirm the sale price you're welcome to do that.

That's strong words for someone to use towards another that you've never met or dealt with. Be carful personal attacks could put you in the crosshairs of the pinside purge....

My "Rep" is perfectly fine with anyone I have actually spoken with/dealt with. Maybe not so good with over opinionated under informed know it all keyboard warriors but hey that's just how some can be on pinside I guess....

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wanted-help-in-knoxville-tn#post-3669689

Quick painless adjustments aren't the issue. Just to reiterate specifically, there are parts updates and changes, adjusting ramp depths in playfields, avoiding physical fixes and deactivating coding, unfixable errors, and playfield damage (chipping and ghosting) that have met "factory tolerances". The faded insert fix appears (haha) to have addressed the issue enough that affected machines have lost minimal value, whereas many issues suffered by "acceptable" machines (aka within tolerance) with other other manufacturers are more significant.

I've belabored the point enough and it sounds like we're on a similar page . And TWD rocks!

Meh, it's simply an observation. Your posts, behaviour, and revisionism were "toxic" in that MMR thread and contained a lot of hypocrisy. People are welcome to read it and decide for themselves. https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/early-production-run-mmr-owners-help-needed

Funny after that thread and all those posts, your machine with faded inserts sold for more than MSRP and you separately sold the PF for far more than you paid for it. At least Manic quoted you here so you can't revise/delete that.

$6,799 = Classic
$7,599 = Special
$8,299 = LE

http://www.greatamericanpinball.com/products.asp?page=2&categoryId=30

Is this a fixed price or varied based on vendor?

No idea. I'm not a distributor, nor do I work for one. I'm a cube monkey bored on my lunch break.

But now I can see that it won't be contending against the MET Pro I'm probably going to order in a few weeks. At Pro level pricing, it would've been a much more difficult decision.

All done with preorders. Thanks. Manufacturer should shoulder the sales risk, not the customer. Build them, get the pf/electronic/delivery dates worked out, THEN I will see. Not buying into that artificial short supply crap anymore.

I was going to comment on this exact point. Met pro (particularly) but ST pro etc.. at a pro price point ($5200 delivered) or HUO for $4600 the AFM pro is $2K+ more expensive it's basically at/near premium price.

Fine if anyone dying for AFM but the price is a bit higher than I'd go especially with the issues they had with PF and how MMr had bad printing on the PF no way I'd be the lab rat for these games QC speaking.

Good for those who are dying for AFM but to me Met pro (IMO) is a better game or equal.

So $7200 for the classic with the color dmd?

Killer deal.

Isn't the SE $7600?

I can't blame them for charging high, as they will sell look at BM66 price.

It's not horrible when people would have paid $6600-$6700 although 4 years ago for lesser games like TAVLE or XMLE at least AFM is quite proven. I'd surely rather have got AFMr instead of XMLE.

I feel the great bang was in the $4700 pro range I was able to get TWD, IMVE, Tron, Met but looks like no one will sell anything for less than Stern pro which I expect to keep going up or eliminated altogether.

what's the difference between the SE and LE

$700

get black trim (if you want it)
topper
more color changing lights on saucers
better warranty

is there anything else I forgot?

Not sure if I think the topper is worth that much. I don't generally get all jacked up about a topper but this does look cool.

Manufacturing isn't cheap... pretty cool you can get a brand-new AFM for $6500. Pretty amazing, actually. Congrats to CGC and Planetary on hitting that price point.

For folks that love Stern games, the $5200 price point for a Pro is probably palatable... but, you really can't compare Stern Pros to Williams games as apples to apples. Yes, both are Pins... but everyone has something different they're looking for in their collection or playing interests. Frankly, I still can't believe $5200 for a Stern Pro is now being discussed as a "good deal"

Side mirrors

thanks. I forgot that, not a fan myself. If I would pick one up, probably wait for HUO discount on a SE.