(Topic ID: 192072)

Attack From Mars Remake (AFMr) Owners Club

By Pin_Guy

6 years ago


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Topic index (key posts)

26 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items.

Display key post list sorted by: Post date | Keypost summary | User name

Post #1 PinGuy's links to unboxing and SOL potential issue. Posted by Pin_Guy (6 years ago)

Post #5 SOL protector issue Posted by Pin_Guy (6 years ago)

Post #73 LED info Posted by stpcore (6 years ago)

Post #145 Cliffy install info Posted by evh347 (6 years ago)

Post #149 Firmware 1.0.0 Posted by Pin_Guy (6 years ago)

Post #189 info on using AFM cliffys Posted by GorillaBiscuits (6 years ago)

Post #357 Topper connector issue Posted by LTG (6 years ago)

Post #366 Image of Cliffy addition to scoop. Posted by sparechange1974 (6 years ago)

Post #368 Cliffy install info Posted by sparechange1974 (6 years ago)


Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#1221 6 years ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

I had both of those issues. Try turning down the launch coil to Min. Turn down the flipper strength to Min also. I corrected these two by those adjustments. Make sure your game is dead nuts side to side level. My angle is 6.5 degrees. There are still air balls but they are more normalized.

What shots are causing airballs? Random? Do the airballs usually lead to drains? Like hopping over an inlane/outlane divider?

I have one on order and hope this is possible to minimize with some adjustments. Maybe the flippers or flipper rubber need adjusting?

Curious,

snaroff

1 week later
#1397 6 years ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Just got my AFMrLE this afternoon.
Love the look of it, not really enjoying the way it plays, the way I have it set-up.
It will take some getting used to, since it's different from all the previous Sterns that I've had but I expect there's much more to it than that, and I could use some opinions...
I was watching one of Bowen's PAPA videos, and would love to get my new machine playing like that one.
» YouTube video
Not sure if it's just a matter of logging about 400 hundred games onto this one, just to wear it in a little? The ball definitely blazes around the playfield at a breakneck speed. (I've lowered my flipper strength to -7)
I've also maxed the plunger strength. While it does often make it around the orbit for a super-skill shot now, (it rarely made it around at stock setting) it's not aligned well when exiting the shooter lane, and rattles around big time before making its way to the jet bumper area. Something there probably needs some adjusting. Not sure where to start.
I also noticed the left orbit is equally tough to make. It's not at all smooth, and needs some help as well.
Could be that the playfield isnt even well levelled to be honest. I used a torpedo level, and then an Ipad clinometer for accuracy -I had to lengthen the front legs over half their max height to hit 6.5%, (which is really odd compared to all other games I have owned, since usually I would increase the back legs only a little, to get a pin to 6.5%) and even then, the levelling bubble is way at the bottom, which I would expect indicates that the game is shallow, and should be much steeper.
So, hoping that some of you who may have experienced the same initial feel can share what you've tweaked to improve the flow on this game?
Thanks for any help you can provide!
(If any of you could take a photo of your level bubble, and tell me what flipper strength you're using, that might be a great place for me to get started)

Sorry to hear about your issues. I have an AFMr on order and look forward to comparing how it plays with my HEP AFM original (

).

snaroff

#1408 6 years ago
Quoted from Damien:

Very interested in hearing the comparison.

I've been a skeptic of remakes (in general), however I've heard great things about MMr playability so I decide to give AFMr a whirl. Looks beautiful...just hope it plays beautiful. I'm also hopeful if it doesn't play wonderful out-of-the-box, it can be tweaked to play great.

snaroff

#1457 6 years ago

Mine ships tomorrow

#1508 6 years ago
Quoted from rockrand:

Afmle is setup and 100% out of the box on,all I did was lower flipper to -15 so ball stays on lock ramp,very impressed with this remake feels like they learned some lessons from mmr and the topper is what sterns 500 dollar toppers should be.
I would be all in on mbr and ccr
Just fantastic and I have owned 2 very nice originals over the last 17 years

Great to hear someone who has owned 2 originals is impressed! Mine is scheduled to arrive tomorrow...

snaroff

#1545 6 years ago
Quoted from pinballinreno:

I forgot about removing the balls! AFMr doesnt have a ball lock for raising the PF. JJP has us spoiled.
Thanks Lloyd.

Yep, had this feature on RFM as well...think this was a pinball 2000 innovation. Sad that other manufacturers haven't adopted this simple idea.

#1550 6 years ago

WOW. I've never had a coil stop do that (over 13 years and 30-40 pins)...hopefully an uncommon build snafu.

#1599 6 years ago
Quoted from rockrand:

Any ideas for mods,I was thinking star post LEDs.I quess it is so perfect that owners never thought much about it,,of corse back in 1995 mods were just not around

Martian LED eyes is a cool mod (I have it on my original), but routing the wires to a location that won't damage them is tricky. I'm getting an AFMr and don't plan on adding the feature to it. It has enough bling out of the box!

snaroff

#1604 6 years ago

I'm not that much of topper guy, but if all toppers were designed/built like this, I'd become one pretty quickly

The attention to detail on the topper AND the packaging were a pleasant surprise. Wow.

snaroff

IMG_8430 (resized).jpgIMG_8430 (resized).jpg

#1618 6 years ago
Quoted from Robertstone0407:

So i can't seem to find the post but my superskill shot rarely makes the orbit. I turned the auto plunger up and it seems linked with mu SOL kick and makes it to violent. Someone posted i need to shim the plunger and i believe from time to time its contacting the right ramp. Anyone got pictures or advice

Just set mine up yesterday and immediately notice the wonky shooter behavior. The plunger mech wasn't striking the ball center...off by less than 1/8". Took off the apron, removed the screw/washer for the PF bracket, loosened the 3 screws that attach the plunger and moved it in a bit. Wasn't able to get it absolutely perfect (not really that adjustable), however it has enough play to make it work properly. Superskill now makes the orbit reliably (though it doesn't have the speed I would want/expect).

snaroff

IMG_8432 (resized).jpgIMG_8432 (resized).jpg
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#1622 6 years ago
Quoted from Miknan:

With CGC on here knowing about a reoccurring problem, why do so many people have trouble with the shooter out of the box? Is it really just a small number encountering this or should I plan on addressing this with adjustments, washers, etc right out of the box. Excited to get mine but I’m not as good at fixing this stuff as you guys are so I’m kind of nervous.

Adjusting the shooter plunger is the correct fix. I don't believe adding washers is the right fix. If the ball is being struck in the proper location, it shouldn't get near hitting the wireform. Raising the wireform is only masking the true problem (the shooter plunger isn't adjusted properly as my photo demonstrates above).

Maybe Lloyd can chime in.

snaroff

#1626 6 years ago
Quoted from nipper2u:

Hello everyone - I have to second the previous concerns. Does CGC monitor this forum (like AP does their Houdini post)? I have a down payment on an LE and I too am concerned that units are still being made and shipped with the same issues over and over. Why aren't these issues being addressed before shipment at this point? Like change the default flipper strength or adjust the ramp or better align the plunger and flippers as a few examples. Is this an issue with quality control, or an inflexible build routine, or are my expectations too high for an $8k unit? This is an awesome forum and you all are great but shouldn't we expect more from CGC at this point? Any input is appreciated as this is my first NIB pin. Thank you

I've been in the hobby for ~15 years. When I started out, I purchased a couple NIB games (LOTR, TSPP) and was too busy to deal with problems. Purchased from a local distributor who did all tweaks/maintenance. Those 2 Stern pins happened to be rock solid and didn't require much fiddling.

Fast forward to today. From my perspective, all pins require tweaking now. I just "dialed in" my AFMr in a couple hours (shooter & flippers needed adjusting). Haven't played it enough to know if it's perfect, but it's playing well after half dozen games. OTOH, took me 3 days to "dial in" my Dialed In (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dialing-in-dialed-in-le-96). My SWLE didn't require any tweaking and my AS required adjusting the flippers.

So, my recent experience is Stern was the least effort, with CGC a close second, and JJP third. This doesn't mean that JJP builds a low quality product, it means they are having some challenges "dialing in" all the mechs (which shouldn't be surprising, since it's the most complex pin of the bunch). Stern has the advantage of building pinball machines for decades and their machines typically aren't on the bleeding edge of innovation.

My advice is either consider this a hobby and don't expect perfection out-of-the-gate or purchase from a local distributor that can help adjust and support the pinball. It's totally valid to be disappointed and hope CGC improves it's build process, however I wouldn't make purchasing decisions on it. Plan for getting your hands a little dirty. Even if your machine doesn't arrive with issues, it will develop issues soon enough. Pinball machines are NOT consumer devices...

snaroff

#1636 6 years ago
Quoted from nipper2u:

Thank you Snaroff for your thorough and direct response. I will have to think about your perspective since I am someone in the "new generation" of pinballers. I feel that they will build the systems up the level we require them to. Does CGC not see their pins as consumer devices? Does it being a "hobby" mean we don't have a right to expect better? Please keep in mind this is in response to months of the same issues, not the first run. Again, thank you for being open to my perspective - know I appreciate yours as well.

You absolutely have the right to expect better! Pushing the respective pinball companies on this issue is right-minded. As mschonbrun states, open support tickets and make CGC aware of your issues. No argument at all! If they don't know about problems, they can't address them and/or improve the builds.

All that said, here is some food for thought. A remake like this is an interesting design space...MANY of the "mechs" are old, not re-designed. The plunger design on AFM is notorious for having this alignment problem. GNR uses a similar mech and has even more issues with the shooter. Folks who have more extensive collections have often seen these issues before. So even though you are purchasing a brand spanking new AFMr, the mechs *haven't* been redesigned or bullet-proofed for home/consumer usage. The electronics & boards are another issue. They have been totally reworked and will hopefully give you years of trouble-free usage, however that has yet to be seen.

snaroff

#1645 6 years ago
Quoted from abetterway:

Having balls fail to plunge correctly and requiring the owner to physically modify the machine to correct it does not fall under "dialing it in" in my opinion. That is a defect.

We could sit here all day long and argue semantics (i.e. "defects vs. dialing-in"), but I prefer to solve problems.

As described above, I dialed-in my shooter plunger and now it's succeeding more than failing. Unfortunately, it still fails ~20% of the time.

Here is a slow motion video of it failing twice during the same plunge. In the first failure, the ball goes directly into the pops without going through the lanes. In the second failure (which is far more common), it just dribbles down the orbit without ever reaching the pops. If you download the video and view it frame-by-frame, you can see it's hitting the wireform above (which is why some folks have been suggesting "raising" the wireworm slightly with flat washers. I really want to avoid raising the wireform. At this point, I'm going to contact CGC to get their wisdom on this issue. At least, I now have a video that demonstrates the problem many of us have been experiencing.

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0dGzFCC1Gbcd7o

snaroff

#1650 6 years ago
Quoted from LTG:

Bend it up a little. The weight of it may have brought it down a little in shipping. We are talking maybe 6 or 10 of these out of well over 500 games.
LTG : )

Hey Lloyd,

With all due respect, the wireform on my machine is aligned perfectly with the 2 plastic ramps and I don't think raising it is the correct solution (seems like a hack to me).

I've studied the video I posted frame-by-frame and the problem is keeping the ball from going airborne after the plunge. I've already adjusted the plunger and my shooter is 80% better.

To get the last 20%, my current theory is the stainless shooter lane ramp has too much pitch (contributing to the ball bumping into the wireform). Pushing it down and reducing the pitch seems to improve things. Will continue down this path until the Chicago support guys contact me. I sent them an email, since the ticket system on the website wasn't working for me.

I added a video that shows how much "play" is in the shooter lane ramp. Don't know if it is suppose to be this loose. If not, might be something really simple...like a missing screw. Wish I had my HEP AFM here to compare it with...oh well.

snaroff

#1654 6 years ago
Quoted from hockeymag8:

Hi - I have been reading this great forum and I have the issue with the ball not making it around upon launch about 70% of the time. At first I was convinced to shim the ramp with a couple washers and then if that did not work adjust the plunger (btw I am in the less experienced tech ability camp). Now others are saying adjust plunger only/first so I am torn.
Should I try to adjust ramp then plunger or plunger then ramp or should I just open ticket and have them guide me?
Thanks a lot

If you don't have experience, I suggest working with CG support folks.

I'm convinced my problem is the plunger was off center and my shooter lane ramp isn't sitting flat against the PF. The raised ramp is what's causing the ball to become airborne. I looked at my original AFM and the ramp is securely against the PF...no "play" whatever.

If you are curious about what I'm talking about to see if your ramp has "play", here is a video (https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0dGzFCC1Gbcd7o).

This will help the CG folks help you even if you don't fix it yourself. I'm convinced fiddling with the wireform ramp is not the best path. The ramp is so critical to them game, that fiddling with it for this reason if it's not the root cause is wrong.

snaroff

#1659 6 years ago
Quoted from Nexyss:

On my AFMr, I have not had a single launch failure in the 300+ games I have played.
For those buying now, keep in mine that most people don't post on here to say that they have no issues, so these issues are probably not as prevalent as appear here.
My flippers are still at the default setting, and seem fine. I may try other settings to see if I like them better, but I certainly wouldn't say that the default settings are a defect.

It's awesome to hear you've had no problems! Guess what...one day you will have a problem and will be so happy to engage with other Pinsiders who are sharing experiences to help you fix your problem. We aren't trying to disparage the game, the company, whatever. We are just sharing experiences with our new game with the goal of getting it to play as awesomely as yours! These babies are built by hand and it should be no surprise that issue exist.

#1660 6 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

It's awesome to hear you've had no problems! Guess what...one day you will have a problem and will be so happy to engage with other Pinsiders who are sharing experiences to help you fix your problem. We aren't trying to disparage the game, the company, whatever. We are just sharing experiences with our new game with the goal of getting it to play as awesomely as yours! These babies are built by hand and it should be no surprise that issue exist.

13
#1680 6 years ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Don't waste your breath. I don't think anyone on here is carrying a torch, looking for blood. If some of these other guys are offended that we're being vocal about some common issues, I don't feel there's any point in defending ourselves at all.
Just keep discussing what it is that's being tweaked and how it's helping or not helping to fix the problems.
I think that Snaroff has isolated the cause of the shooter lane issue. Now we just need to confirm it, and then figure out a fix.

Here is an annotated before/after photo that describes what fixed this for me. After a dozen or so launches, it seems to have done the trick! More testing is necessary, but looks good so far...

snaroff

Screen Shot 2017-12-13 at 7.54.57 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2017-12-13 at 7.54.57 AM (resized).png

#1685 6 years ago
Quoted from abetterway:

Thanks for the pic!
One thing I find really interesting about this plunger issue is that is not consistent. Maybe the plunger mechanism is loose and moves around. I can play a game and all balls plunge correctly. The very next game none of them plunge correctly. Seems like some variable is changing over time. Or maybe its just random and just works out that way.

If the plunger hinge is aligned properly and the mech is 100% (tight, spring is ok, etc.), there shouldn't be much variability. I've owned an original for 7 years and the plunger is absolutely consistent/strong.

Have you checked yours and compared it with the photo? If not, it's worth a look if yours is inconsistent. Just 2 screws to remove the apron.

snaroff

#1692 6 years ago
Quoted from pintechev:

That’s the flipper gap spacer gauge. It’s handy when you have to rebuild your flippers and reset the gap between the flipper and the top of the bushing. Stash it away; you don’t need it for a while...

I used it to adjust my flippers soon after unboxing. The flippers were installed with 0 gap, which I added with the handy tool. Very cool that CGC included it...a real blast from the past.

#1703 6 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

I know folks are having issues with this, but for what it's worth I have one of the first machines produced and my machine has never missed making the skill shot orbit without making any adjustments to the game that would effect this shot.

You started this thread to discuss issues with AFMr. Hearing you defend AFMr with "well my AFMr has been perfect from day 1" and "Stern NIB pins are the worst" doesn't seem like the best approach for encouraging folks to discuss their issues.

I have nothing but respect for what CG has accomplished with AFMr. Doug, Lloyd and the other CG folks have been incredibly supportive. It's my first CG pin and I couldn't be more impressed with the way they have engaged with me. The ticket system is efficient and we had a quick video chat last night so they could see my pin first hand.

snaroff

#1710 6 years ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

Yeah but what he said is being skewed here. He was not Stern bashing he was making a point that it happens with other manufacturers and he used his personal experience.

Like we all don't know that? Please...Stern has taken shit for years. It's what happens when you are successful

As Ice said, implication and inferences...not skewed.

#1723 6 years ago
Quoted from chrisnack:

That's going to be entirely personal preference.
I run my flippers at -6 and the game is level based on the manual, which is just touching the 2nd line. No other changes other than free ball adds.
Don't have any cliffy's etc, don't run them on my MMr either, again personal preference.

It's not just personal preference, it also depends on your homes AC voltage. I had to dial mine down to -23 and the flippers are still very strong. I decided to purchased this nifty little device to keep an eye on my voltage throughout the day.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CDJRLKI/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00

snaroff

#1740 6 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

My machine being "perfect" was never said or inferred, and was in response to the previous comment about halting production to correct this problem early on. The second comments about MY stern machines were also in response to a separate post and were based on my own experiences, there is no bashing here these are just the facts.
Now what I don't like is that you are tying two separate responses to two separate posts together to make it appear to be something that it's not, as well as putting things in quotes that was never said. By tying them together like this and adding your own interpretations, you are taking everything out of context to make it appear to be something it's not.

Quotes are often used to paraphrase (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=definition:+paraphrase&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8).

The spirit of what I was saying was straightforward. Your literal quote "I have one of the first machines produced and my machine has never missed making the skill shot orbit without making any adjustments to the game that would effect this shot" doesn't help any of us with our issue.

For some odd reason, you felt compelled to defend CGC quality and bash Stern's, which (from my perspective) was inappropriate considering the context (of folks like me who are posting issues and looking for help/feedback). Does everything need to devolve into a "this vs. that" thread? (yes, I paraphrased again...you didn't literally say "this vs. that").

I love what CGC has accomplished (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/afmr-an-le-that-feels-like-an-le), however they are a fairly new manufacturer/platform and kinks should be discussed and resolved (the spirit of this thread).

#1743 6 years ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

I decided to take another look at mine. ( plunger is working fine now after the wire form was raised) I have no gap. I did notice that the Plunger to Ball geometry is off and remains so due to the fact that there is no adjustment to correct it. The plunger is centered (left to right) but not vertically. The plunger is actually hitting the top of the ball. Again, there is no adjustment (bending included) to correct this problem. So in summation, launch power on the ball will be decreased due to this condition and there is nothing you can do about it that I can see. My game is launching fine so I am not going to take this any further.

Yep, my plunger adjustment helped, but didn't fully resolve the problem. As you say, it's not that adjustable. I fiddled with some other ideas (reducing the coil strength, adjusting the shooter ramp) with not much luck.

I ended up raising the wireform with some washers. Works great. Hack or not, I'll do whatever it takes to get the ball moving in the right direction!

Thanks for sharing your experience,

snaroff

IMG_8463 (resized).jpgIMG_8463 (resized).jpg

#1759 6 years ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Thats a cool device...I'm surprised your voltage varies so much, and has that much of an impact...

After installing/monitoring the device, turns out my AC voltage doesn't vary much and is in an acceptable range of 116-120 (consistent throughout the home).

CGC wanted to verify my home AC voltage (since my plunger & flippers were playing unusually strong even when dialed down using the software settings).

None of my other pins (or audio equipment, appliances, etc.) have experienced any electrical issues, so I'm not surprised the AC checked out.

snaroff

#1765 6 years ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

After making the same adjustment to the plunger coil that Snaroff was kind enough to illustrate with pics, and then levelling the machine side to side at the back and near the flippers, I'd say I have my pin working about 95% to how it was designed.
Still appears as though the left orbit guiderail may have been bent or something, but I'm going to play it this way for now and consider replacing the guiderail some time in the future.
I assume nobody else is seeing rejects from the left orbit? I can make the shot 3 times in a row on some games, but there are times when the ball seems to hit that guide rail and loses all steam, immediately. Definitely not the way it's supposed to function.

Glad the diagram helped! I really hope folks with shooter lane issues open tickets with CGC...they need to know about the frequency so they can tweak future builds. At the moment, I don't think CGC thinks this is widespread (which is why the brand new builds still have the problem...mine was built on 12/6, only 10 days ago!)

My left orbit has occasional rejects as well. fwiw, the rejects don't happen on my HEP AFM. I need to compare the 2 when I get a chance.

snaroff

#1768 6 years ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

My wife told me today that ours had that problem early on. She thinks that when I set my flipper strength to -2 that it stopped. I played mine just now just to hit that orbit as many times as I could and it was smooth. What are your flippers set to, (strength) and post up a pick of your flippers so to see how they are configured. Maybe also a pic of that lane to compare to mine.

Interesting. My flipper strength is dialed down all the way to -23 and the pin still shoots very fast. I did notice that the left orbit was more clunky prior to dialing down the flipper strength. The voltage in my home is totally normal (116-120), so I have absolutely no idea why my flippers are on steroids. CGC working with me to diagnose.

No doubt that all these shot were designed with certain ball speeds. Exceed the speeds or put air between the ball/pf and shots can fail or feel lousy.

snaroff

#1769 6 years ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

I would like to see CGC make a new bracket for the shooter solenoid so the shooter plunger will hit the ball correctly.

Unlikely, but definitely a good idea. I imagine it's the same part that's on the original. It has some horizontal play, but no vertical play. The shooter lane divot on the new PF's would have to be absolutely identical to the original NOS PF's to nail the vertical spacing (which is a tall order).

snaroff

#1772 6 years ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

Loyd you should take a look at how high that plunger is on the ball. Its a lot. That plunger isnt going to move that much.
Any of you guys that play pool know what the ball does when you hit it on top like that. If the bracket were adjustable, then we could dial it in on the games that need it. This situation will continue on to the next remake that is autolaunch (MB comes to mind).

Mine a bit high...not too bad. I guess it varies from pin to pin.

Stern's auto launch is less finicky...doesn't depend on vertical alignment IIRC (only horizontal). Hopefully learned from some of the flawed designs of the past?

snaroff

#1786 6 years ago
Quoted from CyberNinja24:

The plunger issue is present in my game, but it’s present for so many that I have to believe CGC will address this and fix it.

I worked with CGC on my auto-launch issue last week. The said they weren't aware of many folks having this issue, so please submit a support ticket with them. If owners don't submit support tickets, CGC is unable to recognize the scope of the problem. Pinside posts are useful to the community, but not so useful to CGC.

In 1996, B/W redesigned their auto-launch mech to avoid the problems we are dealing with on AFMr (http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/A-21022). Since CGC uses B/W parts, in theory, this improved auto-launcher could be used in AFMr. My DILE uses this mech. After implementing the 2 workarounds on AFMr, my auto-launch works 99% of the time (so it's not a problem for me anymore). Continuing to build machines without correcting this issue is unfortunate. CGC seems like a great company and I'm sure once they are more aware of the scope of the problem, they will decide how to best correct the issue.

Quoted from abagwell:

The voltage thing is odd to me, I've had my other two pins for almost a year in the same spot in my basement and the flippers are totally normal. Default on AFMr was like firing them out of a railgun.

This is my biggest concern. Even when dialed down to -23, I am seeing balls violently/occasionally fly off my right wireform. Doesn't seem to happen as much on my left. This is my first CGC pin/platform, so I'm really new to this technology. Does anyone know if this is the same power management and board set used on MMr? Or has it been revised dramatically?

snaroff

#1790 6 years ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

Something must be going on with some of these games where the game is not responding to the adjustments. Have you tried setting your flippers to Min just to see if the game does indeed turn down the flipper power? I set my flippers to -2 and the game responded perfectly. I do not have any air balls (very few) and I do not have balls coming off of the ramps anymore on the (perfect) lock shot especially.

My solenoid board actually failed on Friday (right flipper stopped working), so I can't try anything now

Before the board failure, I believe I tried the minimum flipper setting and they were totally unresponsive (which is odd since I believe -25 is the minimum and -23 is darn close).

CGC is sending me out a new board with new flipper coils tomorrow. If the new parts behave more like your game, then the source of the problem is clearer. As I stated in previous posts, I've been monitoring my AC current with a nifty device and it's spot-on (116-120, depending on time of day). In addition, my other pinball machines play perfectly with no flipper power issues.

Hopeful this will be resolved next week. Would be a bummer if this beauty isn't playable for my holiday guests...

snaroff

#1810 6 years ago
Quoted from markp99:

LE-0196, 427 plays, I cannot recall a single bad launch.
Vertically, the plunger looks to touch the ball very near its center line, possibly a fraction of a mm above. Likewise, left-to-right alignment looks good, possibly a similar smidge to the left of the center line.

Great idea to remove the post to get a clear photo! Thanks.

Here is a photo of mine...you can see how it's a tad high. Your bracket install looks closer to the front of shooter entrance than my install. Either the holes in the PF were slightly off OR the bracket was changed?

snaroff

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#1813 6 years ago
Quoted from mpnox:

Mine looks exactly like yours, a tad high but horizontally centered.

Do you have a substantial gap between the bracket and the shooter entrance? What about markp99?

Thanks for all the photos...doing comparisons between machines that work consistently and don't is really helpful.

snaroff

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#1815 6 years ago
Quoted from markp99:

I notice in my photo the bracket has a slightly downward orientation (as does the coil). Snaroff, your photo seems to look ~horizontal, but can't quite tell.
Using a metal scale, I measure 22.5mm at the plunger end and 24mm at the screw head (see photo).

You are correct...mine has no angle. I noticed the orientation of the 2 holes when I looked at your photo. Wow.

Is your "angle" created by the bracket or bracket installation? Hard to tell...

snaroff

#1817 6 years ago
Quoted from markp99:

It appears there is no adjustment in the bracket to achieve this angle. It's welded like that,

If convenient, please post 2 photos of your with the following orientation. Thanks!

snaroff

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#1820 6 years ago
Quoted from hoby1:

Mine is straight also. Would love to be able to launch the ball around instead of a slow cruise.
Gotta be away to achieve this. The ball rattles around going up the shooter then whacks the big guide rail on the top left.
My OEM from 1995 looks identical to whats on my machine. Thats what so frustrating.

That's why B/W redesigned it It was a poor design. The stars need to align for it to work 100%. This is why the high-end restorers make the big bucks when restoring pinball machines.

My GNR has a similar awful design. In GNR's case, the precise location of the switch can be problematic (triggering the plunger too soon or too late). That's yet another benefit of the redesign...they unified the switch, plunger, and bracket.

snaroff

#1824 6 years ago
Quoted from hoby1:

What did B/W do ? Ive never seen a different style.

See post #1786. Shipped on B/W starting in '96 (CV, CC, etc.)

snaroff

#1825 6 years ago

Ok...plainly obvious now. I've put all 4 photos together in this post.

If someone else with an example that works perfectly has an angle with 3 custom welds (like yours), then it's clear the part was being modified to accommodate the shooter lane issue? Very odd.

snaroff

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#1827 6 years ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

I have basically a huo afm and plunger works perfectly every time.... wonder what is different on afmr....

The PF/clearcoat. CGC isn't using NOS PF's...they are recreating them. Aesthetically, the PF is gorgeous (and I'm comparing with the my HEP restoration, not any AFM), however the tolerances are REALLY hard to get exactly right. I've done many restorations and this is why restoration is HARD...there are tons of little variables to constantly tweak.

Now that I've seen markp99's photos, I can see faint markers in my shooter hinge where his was welded/angled (see photo). Maybe someone created the markers to compensate for subtle differences between the old/new PF's. In markp99's case, they implemented the angle indicated by the markers. In my case, they left the part as is (which is why my plunger doesn't hit the ball in the center).

snaroff

IMG_8511 (resized).jpgIMG_8511 (resized).jpg

#1830 6 years ago

Decided to place a very thin metal washer toward the back of the bracket to give it the lift/angle necessary to hit the ball in the center.

Now it looks perfect

snaroff

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#1840 6 years ago
Quoted from markp99:

Nice. Seems like a very simple solution. I hope the long term durability of the bracket clamped down on the thin washer (less surface area than the flat playfield) will not be affected. The other two screws, especially the center screw and locknut, might compensate adequately.

Based on your last photos, I really think it's both factors (the bracket and slight variations in the PF angle/cutout). Your bracket is definitely more angled than mine. Thanks for removing it so it is easier to see.

snaroff

#1841 6 years ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

Its obvious the difference between Marks and mine his bracket angles forward so his plunger is centered on the ball. Need you bracket Mark!

Your bracket seems raised (i.e. elevated from the PF). Why isn't it flush? Have you removed it to see what's underneath?

snaroff

#1862 6 years ago
Quoted from hoby1:

So is everyone’s shooter working 100% with the washers on the shooter ? Spoke with Doug today and they are looking into.
Since centering the shooter ramp I have had ZERO rejects on high.
If anyone is having this problem I would also just the position of that ramp.

How far off was yours? It's hard for me to tell if my ramp is off center. I did bend it down to remove any "play", and it didn't have much of an effect.

Glad you spoke to Doug. When I spoke to him last week, he said they haven't had many tickets on the shooter.

snaroff

#1871 6 years ago
Quoted from hoby1:

Its really funny how touchy this simple action of a ball shooter is on this game.
I having trouble understanding why my ramp was off center if these are mass produced by template ..... or is this piece just drilled when installed.
All I can say is that....... everyone has great suggestions and like I said in my post , I was not sure everyones is like that.
Honestly it has been 100% dead on and fast since I did this with setting at MAX. Even if it comes back I feel that I should move it into its current position as there is no way around not having it hit the rivet if not centered.... thoughts ?

Here is a photo of the rivet location on my HEP AFM. Appears to be drilled closer to the corner/edge than AFMr. As long as the plunger is aligned and the ball path is in the center of the shooter, the rivets shouldn't be a problem. Nevertheless, if I were CGC, I'd make as many of these tweaks as possible to avoid potential issues. As we've discovered, it's tricky and multi-faceted (plunger horizontal/vertical "alignment", plunger strength, ramp rivets/humps).

snaroff

Screen Shot 2017-12-19 at 6.29.48 AM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2017-12-19 at 6.29.48 AM (resized).png

#1875 6 years ago
Quoted from CyberNinja24:

I have a sneaky suspicion that many people don’t realize they have the plunger issue because they aren’t utilizing the super skill shot by holding in the left flipper button.
If I simply hit the launch button, it’ll get to where it needs to be, but if you’re going for the super skill shot and need it go all the way around, there’s currently zero consistency out of the box, which is somewhat frustrating.
I had a good chat with Lloyd yesterday and shared my feeling that more than just a dozen or so guys have the plunger issue. I believe it’s a lot more than that. However, at the end of the day, I’m confident it’ll get resolved and I’m also blown away by this pin.

I agree, but want to point out that my failures (and some others) weren't limited to the Super Skill Shot. For standard launches, the ball was failing to make it up to the lanes->pops...just dribbling down the right orbit after being misdirected.

snaroff

#1886 6 years ago
Quoted from neverahighscore:

Changing mine to Titans GITD. Didn't care for black either.

Great taste That's what I've had on my HEP AFM. They look awesome in the dark...the photo doesn't do it justice.

Will likely add the same to AFMr.

snaroff

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#1898 6 years ago
Quoted from DngrWillRobinson:

I'm liking the green super bands but was considering the Titans who's green I don't care for. What to do?

Titan has 2 shades of green...light translucent green and more traditional solid green. When I switched to Titan, there was no going back for me. Love the colors, longevity, and bounce. Nothing wrong with super bands, but I prefer Titan. Personal preference...

snaroff

#1908 6 years ago
Quoted from Veith:

OK, I am officially in the club!! Received a LE yesterday. Great looking machine! One question though, where do I find the power cord?? Looks like it was missing. Minor issue but......

Should be in the coin box with the balls?

snaroff

#1909 6 years ago
Quoted from Veith:

OK, I am officially in the club!! Received a LE yesterday. Great looking machine! One question though, where do I find the power cord?? Looks like it was missing. Minor issue but......

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/anti-rattle-tapewhich-is-best

#1939 6 years ago
Quoted from hoby1:

Does anyone make a mini saucer kit like Bill Ung does for AFMr?

What would be the benefit? AFMr seems to incorporate the behavior and the LED's are color changing...

snaroff

#2091 6 years ago
Quoted from IonRay:

Anybody's topper not working? Brought AFM LE home a week ago and the topper is not fully functioning. His eyes light up and the front light stays on but no further lighting or interactivity. Yes, I immediately opened a support ticket, but so far its been little more than requesting I check that the pins are seated and that it's turned on in the menu. There are only so many ways I can seat and re-seat the same connectors. Has anybody else had a similar issue?
Also new out of the box the cabinet directly behind the glass channel / under the back box is flaking. Note flakes of paint on the playfield glass in this image.

Looks like J109 on the solenoid board is being used to power some topper functions. My topper is currently in the same state.

snaroff

#2099 6 years ago
Quoted from IonRay:

Have you had any change with J109? My topper remains the same with J109 plugged in or unplugged from the solenoid board. Also changed out fuses on topper & solenoid boards but no change there.

No change. Like you, a ticket was filed.

snaroff

#2149 6 years ago
Quoted from Dust2000:

Right flipper has stopped working and I am getting this error message any ideas how to fix it?
I’ve had less than 30 plays on it

Check if the fuse (F115) is blown. If it is, file a ticket with CG...

snaroff

#2186 6 years ago
Quoted from abagwell:

I submitted a ticket with CGC for my flipper position issue and also mentioned my shooter issue, CGC sent me a PDF with instructions for bending that shooter lane ramp so I guess that is the established fix at this point for the issue.

Bending the shoot lane ramp is a partial solution. Hopefully the instructions mention aligning the plunger, which for me was a bigger deal.

snaroff

#2218 6 years ago
Quoted from Mark000:

Hi all, Just set up my AFTr LE, After having approximately 20 games on it the Left flipper stopped working. I have checked the flipper return spring, fuse, as well as making sure all wires are connected properly. I have no Idea what the problem could be. Any help would be appreciated.

My flipper stopped working after 20 games as well...blown fuse & solenoid board. Make sure you checked the correct fuse. If the fuse is blown, the board is likely damaged and will need replacement. File a CGC ticket.

If it's not the fuse/solenoid board, I guess I'd make sure the flipper button is working in test mode...

snaroff

#2223 6 years ago

Let's face it, the fact that so many owners were forced to dial down the flipper strength is highly unusual, and I'm surprised it doesn't get more airplay.

I've owned many machines and I've never had to fiddle with the flipper strength software settings. Having settings to fine-tune the pinball is one thing...being forced to use them to keep the ball on the PF/ramps is another thing. Hopefully CGC can dial in the default flipper setting so it actually works for most games.

snaroff

#2229 6 years ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

I, for one, have not had this problem. My build date is 8-1. My flippers have stayed at -2 and the game play has had few air balls (what I would consider normal based on my other games) The balls stay on the ramps (especially that perfect lock enable shot)
I have noticed the dimpling on the pf and considered it normal. ( a non issue for me)

Nice to hear your machine is working properly. My build date was 12/6. Have no idea what electronics could have changed in 4 months. Whatever it is, I'm hopeful CGC will eventually get to the bottom of it. Here is a 14 second slo-motion video of the crazy lock shot behavior I was experiencing:

https://www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0dJ8GySPJtcUnf;0A92F53F-00CC-476E-9E79-0D62C8C6EFB7

snaroff

#2240 6 years ago
Quoted from PinLen83:

What CGC is saying, the common denominator in all of these failures were people setting their games flippers down deep in negative territory; IE -17 through -21. What they feel may be causing these boards to fry is a software glitch essentially causing the solenoid driver board to become overpowered by the flippers (locking up the transistors and popping the fuses). These machines are having issues in conjunction with the adjustment
I'm not really that technical...but that's what I've gathered from CGCs post on the matter. There are some peoples games where the flipper power adjustment is working properly, and others are causing shorts.
Someone feel free to comment on my interpretation on their post

Correct, however my machine wasn't playable at the default flipper power. So for folks with machines like mine, restoring the default flipper power is equivalent to saying the machine won't be playable until we have a fully tested update.

The obvious related issue is this: Why do some machines play fine at default flipper power while others are virtually unplayable? Assuming all the AFMr's are running the same software, it would imply hardware malfunction of some kind. The other variable is voltage...my AC voltage is between 116 & 120. When CG was helping me and expressed concerned about my AC voltage, I purchased a device to measure it 24/7. If my AC was an issue for AFMr, it would be the outlier (since all my other machines play great).

snaroff

#2244 6 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

This doesn't sound right, and reducing your flipper strength is clearly not an option. All machines should have been factory tested at their default settings prior to shipping; I just have to wonder if you have a bad solder joint or connection issue that is not allowing full current to your flipper coils.

No idea, but if you've read many of the recent posts, dialing down the flipper strength has been a popular option for those of us with airballs and balls flying off wireforms. In addition to installing a new Solenoid Board, I installed two new flipper coils with a new wire harness and it didn't resolve the problem.

snaroff

#2246 6 years ago
Quoted from snaroff:

No idea, but if you've read many of the recent posts, dialing down the flipper strength has been a popular option for those of us with airballs and balls flying off wireforms. In addition to installing a new Solenoid Board, I installed two new flipper coils with a new wire harness and it didn't resolve the problem.

My gut says there are 2 issues...one hardware, one software.

First, hardware. I suspect folks with flippers on steroids (any game requiring severely dialed down flippers of -15...-25 to be playable) may have a faulty power transformer. The transformer is driving the solenoid board too hard.

Second, the software used to dial down the flipper strength is flawed and leads to Solenoid Board failure. This is what CGC appears to be working on, however the fix isn't interesting in isolation (since folks shouldn't need to severely dial down the flippers for the game to be playable).

Both of these issues seem interrelated to me.

snaroff

#2264 6 years ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

If they were to sell the topper individually over the counter it would hose all of the LE owners. We buy and pay special prices for an LE game because we believe it is truly special. The topper makes the LE worth the extra cost and risk in investment. Selling the wide screen and the lighted speakers separately is a different matter because it is available with the SE. You have to be careful not to alienate your customer base!

I don't see how this would alienate the customer base. The LE is a $700 up-charge (with an impressive list of upgrades over the SE). The topper is so elaborate, it's easy to imagine them charging $400-$500 (Stern's boring KISS pinball topper is in this range, and isn't nearly as impressive). If SE folks pay $500 for the topper, then LE customers "paid" $200 for all the other goodies on the LE (armor, blades, bi-color mini saucers, warranty upgrade, fancy medallion).

From my perspective, CG should have the freedom to do whatever makes sense for them and their customers. Kudos to them for the attractive pricing on the LE (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/afmr-an-le-that-feels-like-an-le).

snaroff

#2266 6 years ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

People buy and pay for high priced pinball machines for different reasons. There was a lot of bad blood over the MMR LE. So much so that PPS stated they would never do another one. (we see how far that went) A lot of MMRLE customers said they would never buy another remake after that.( I know because I have talked to them) It's a fact that a Limited Edition needs to be Special! and Limited! I bought the AFMrLE because I knew it was a good title and the LE was a good value. But I also bought the LE because it was an LE! I believe it will hold it's own against any other title new or otherwise. And yes CGC/PPS will do whatever they want in regards to the LEs. But there is always a cost. The bottom line is in order for a company to continue to business they have to be profitable. These guys have to sell enough of these games! Period! If they don't it wont last and in ten years we will all be looking for parts to our busted games!

Not sure I get your argument. Apparently MMRLE folks "stomped their feet", claiming they "will never buy another remake", yet AFMrLE appears to be selling well. So you apparently think that if CG sells the AFMrLE topper, AFMrLE folks will "stomp their feet" and "never buy another remake"? And a few more iterations will result it no remake customers? I don't buy it. The biggest threat to CG's remake business long term is building pinball machines that work, are reliable, offer value, and have great support. If they accomplish those objectives, they will be successful. If they decide to sell the topper for $400-$500, they may lose a few customers, but no mass exit will happen. You kind of proved this with your MMrLE observation...

snaroff

#2269 6 years ago
Quoted from bitpatrol:

Sounds like you should have bought an LE, and that the LE with the topper, even at 1000 unit runs, is worth more than the non-LE or people would not be looking to upgrade their non-LE. If they decide to make it easy for non-LEs to become LEs, I won't ever buy one again, but I know they won't do that,

I purchased an LE and could care less if they sell the topper.

snaroff

#2274 6 years ago
Quoted from bitpatrol:

We, that does not change what others think, and

You may not 'care', but for those who do, and paid the premium, it's important. If it's not important, don't buy an LE. Those of us who paid more for an LE took a risk, and if that risk means the value is more down the road cause people wanted an exclusive LE topper, than can buy mine.

We paid a $700 premium and got a ton of cool stuff. This is different from the standard Stern LE model where the difference is typically artwork (and sometimes armor).

If CG were to make *every* LE feature available for the SE and the cost added up to $1,400, then LE customers got a $700 price advantage.

Ultimately, none of our opinions matter much. CG will make business decisions based on demand. Folks shouldn't be surprised by the demand for such an awesome topper. CG could probably charge $700 and folks would pay it...

snaroff

#2297 6 years ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

I wouldn’t compare the MMR with anything, very different time, with a new pinball maker, Rick at PPS more involved than he has been with AFMR. There were many stomping feet situations!

Pinball manufacturers are great @ creating stomping feet situations...the hobby would be boring otherwise.

Just to be clear, I was responding to another Pinsiders MMR comparison...I don't own MMr and had no interest in it (so I wasn't paying attention to all the apparent drama).

I just find this topper sensitivity so hypocritical. Remake advocates have long argued with original lovers (like myself) that remakes rock so more folks can experience the joy of a LIMITED # of games that are loved, rare, and costly. The remakes often disrupt the original values, but the remake advocates taut this as a virtue. Fine. By analogy, if an AFM owner loves the freakin topper, let them purchase a topper! I imagine CG will stick by it's promise, but wouldn't be surprised if they evolve their model to be more progressive (as Pin_Guy mentions above).

snaroff

#2333 6 years ago
Quoted from rockrand:

Selling the toppers and led kit will do nothing to the resale of My le,I hope the others get a chance to buy anything they want for there games

Exactly. The original B/W classics shot up in value because the supply was limited and many of these games were being restored for insane amounts of money (further raising the values). Assuming CGC is successful remaking/selling/supporting thousands of games, it's odd that folks purchasing them even worry about resale value. The resale value will be dominated by supply/demand, which CGC is in business to satisfy. As other folks have pointed out, 1000 LE's isn't that exclusive. Most NIB pins take a 10-15% hit when sold by the original owner. Will be very surprised if AFMr bucks that trend...topper or not.

snaroff

#2335 6 years ago
Quoted from bitpatrol:

Most of us who paid for an LE don't care about resale value as we are not selling it, but what would be 'odd' is spending ten-K and not considering the resale value. I'm sure you do.

I do care about resale of classic/older titles, but remakes and recently built NIB titles are a totally different beast.

No such thing as "protecting your purchase", for a variety of reasons.

You obviously don't agree, and that's cool...just expressing a point-of-view from someone that's been doing this for 15 years.

snaroff

#2343 6 years ago
Quoted from pintechev:

You also do not have to defend your choices! You bought the LE because you wanted to and that’s enough

Hi Marc, so based on your comments, can I assume you would have no problem if the cool topper was sold to SE owners? That's really how some of the chatter started. Like you, I buy games to enjoy them and don't consider them investments...

snaroff

#2349 6 years ago
Quoted from abagwell:

You are coming off as pretty hostile I'm not sure it's very nice to accuse all of us with differing opinions from yours to be buying games only as investments and not to enjoy them...

Hostile? Because I think folks should be able to purchase a feature? The saucers are being made available and people are jazzed. It's totally arbitrary that some features are available and some features are not. If I weren't an AFMrLE owner, I can see you thinking I was trolling, but hostile? Please. Nothing hostile about expressing an opinion that others might disagree with. I "get" why you want the LE topper to be exclusive, but it's silly since it has 0 impact on the pins desirability or value. This will be my last post on the topic...don't want to ruffle anymore feathers! Just not that important.

snaroff

#2353 6 years ago
Quoted from pintechev:

New topic.
I have never made the 5-way combo
I am just not that good of a player it seems! Never ruled the universe either. One day, but it’s why I keep pressing start. Love this game!

"Missed me, haha"...is one of the best callouts! Never get tired of hearing it. Wish more pinball callouts were that clever...

I've ruled the universe ~10 times in 7 years...total rush. The 5-way combo is tough...

snaroff

#2355 6 years ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

Got the missed me call out for the first time today. Had the last alien right next to SOL and it went into SOL instead. Very cool that there is a subroutine in the software for that. It shows the brilliance of the code!

Yep. Very cool that today was the first time! It's one example of why AFM is one of the all time greats...the code is elegant, clever and the rules are straightforward. It's challenging and entertaining. One of my problems with some of the newer games is they can be overly complex, brutal, and take themselves a bit too seriously (i.e. no humor). I've always found B/W titles more entertaining in general...

snaroff

#2369 6 years ago
Quoted from jmagla:

If that's the left popper, yes I've had this since I received the machine. Sometimes it can pop out first or second times, others it can take 5 or 6.Theres no consistency to it all, I've raised a ticked for it and had some advice from Lloyd - check for anything bent or obviously not right, couldn't see anything and I've tried different popper strengths (again suggested by Lloyd) but the issue remains, he's going to discuss with one of the engineers.
I would suggest a ticket, thought I was the only one....
Interestingly the SOL popper always ejects first time but increasingly delivers straight down the middle, I saw someone else had that problem, again no consistency to this either. Very odd.

I had this problem on my original after it's restoration years ago. All it needed was a VUK (vertical-up-kick) adjustment. Since the black chute is longer than the SOL vuk, it's more finicky (in terms of precisely where the ball hits). I'll let CGC reps advise you on how to adjust it, however it shouldn't be a big deal.

snaroff

#2377 6 years ago
Quoted from abagwell:

So now this thread is only for non technical discussions and the other thread is technical? I feel like this just splinters the group and makes it more difficult to get technical questions answered unless they are posted in both threads depending on who is reading which.

I agree, however this thread is so long/diverse that it's actually hard to find the salient technical problems/solutions.

Would be nice if the other thread could reference some of the help in this thread.

snaroff

#2405 6 years ago
Quoted from bitpatrol:

The fact that replacing a burnt LED required a technician is a major design flaw. I am one of those go can work with tiny SMB, which is the reason I'm very concerned. It's actually a major deal breaker too, as other have mentioned, so if this is the case, and a technician is required to use special equipment to change a bulb, it will affect the bottom line for certain. Now that I know there is no reasonable answer to this design flaw, I will also stay away from getting any other remakes, and stick to getting a super-nice original.

I'm fairly certain all of the new machines from Stern and JJP have this design point as well (DI photo below). Not defending it...simply pointing out the remakes aren't unique in this regard. Still think there are advantages of super-nice originals...but that's a deeper discussion.

snaroff

IMG_8044 (resized).jpgIMG_8044 (resized).jpg

#2408 6 years ago
Quoted from bitpatrol:

It's good to know it's not unique to the remakes, but I wish there was a better solution other than referring people to a qualified technician. I want something that I can keep and work on for years to come, and thought I had found that in the remakes. The good news is my attention is on my TNA which is all about being modular, but still would be into the remakes if there was not this flaw in the design. I'm not worried about the PCB or Pics as they pop right in, but it's just a nagging, unnecessary concern. I tried hard to be a remake collector.

If you are going to be a pinball collector, you will need to know qualified techs. Bottom line. With originals, the most common board that needs rebuilding are the power driver boards. Fortunately, lots of folks are skilled at refurbishing various Power Driver boards. Last year, I had to rebuild my GNR and AFM power driver boards. Cost was low, since a collector friend offered to do it for me. $70 each IIRC? If you have a pro do it, could cost $200?

Even though these LED boards are fairly new, I imagine they will be less of a maintenance issue than power boards. With AFMr as a guide, the solenoid/power boards have already been proven to be a headache to some owners. Haven't heard about any issues with LED boards. Do you currently have an issue?

snaroff

#2433 6 years ago
Quoted from mpnox:

Yeah I did not describe that right. The X is striped so I can't get the screw out. It has happened to me before when I use bad bits and you just make the tracks go away to a hole. I did not cause this, it was like that when I got the game. The other ramps look fine, just these 2 that I can't get out.

Bummer. You should take a photo and submit a ticket. If you did not cause it, it's CGC's responsibility to help you.

snaroff

#2435 6 years ago
Quoted from mpnox:

Yes I could. However I live in Sweden so my guess is they may use the distributor to send out a technician to get the screws out and replaced.
I am not scared of doing some work my self so I may be able do solve this. I have had similar issues working on old cars (not the same as pinballs but principle is the same)
Usually you can make new groves with a dremmel but these are hard to get to if you don't want to damage the ramp. So I am thinking i may be able to use this tool to get them out. First drill a hole and then use the smallest one to get them out.
But if I fail, will CGC consider that a violation to the warranty agreement?

I'm glad you aren't scared, but this isn't an "old car". Your last question is exactly why you should submit a ticket. If you contact them, you can ask them. None of us on Pinside will be able to answer your question with any certainty.

snaroff

#2442 6 years ago
Quoted from mpnox:

True, I'll talk to CGC first. The shooter lane issue got a bit better when I aligned the coil and also put a small spacer under it to tilt it down a bit. Before that the ball did not make it all the way round half the time, now I am at around 8 of 10.
Still don't want the screws look like that.

Great. For me, aligning the coil had a more positive impact than fiddling with the ramp.

snaroff

#2443 6 years ago
Quoted from Oneangrymo:

Hey guys I finally got my AFMR LE. Freaking ano one had a mazing machine! Especially the topper. Anyways, I couldn't find a limited edition certificate like my other machines come with, does it come with one?
Thanks
Mo

Mine didn't. The cool emblem on the apron is certification.

snaroff

#2465 6 years ago
Quoted from pintechev:

That works too! I love Cliffy but those protectors change the gameplay. I am more OK with wear than I am with the gameplay being changed.

Amen! In another thread, someone used the analogy of grandma's old plastic couch protectors to avoid stains/wear Not comfortable at all.

I don't even like mylar in most cases. For HUO pins that are well maintained, mylar around the slings/magnets is most often unnecessary...

snaroff

#2509 6 years ago
Quoted from bitpatrol:

UPDATE: I just got a call from Doug at CGC, and he said I should have received it from the dealer. I can't blame Doug, he has enough on his plate, but damn, it is frustrating as hell finding out about stuff in forums and not the dealer I spent money with.

fwiw, I've never received any "defect/recall" info from the 3 distributors I've purchased from over the years.

If it weren't for Pinside, I'd be out-of-the-loop. Considering most dealers aren't around the corner and often don't get involved in implementing the fixes, it's kind of sad they can't even reach out on issues like this. I'm sure some do, but it hasn't been my experience. I think in many cases, the manufacturers keep the distributors in the dark as well...so it's unclear whose "fault" this is.

Hopefully the manufacturers contribute to Pinside, since it obviously helps their cause

snaroff

#2518 6 years ago
Quoted from Miknan:

Anybody have problems with that bar and latch inside the coin door? Mine has been very shaky since day one but I was more worried about getting my topper working. Put some electrical tape on the back of the glass to get rid of the rattle (it worked) but now I can’t get that latch to work. All the jiggling and rocking in the world and that latch won’t catch. None of my pins have done this before. Not quite sure what to adjust.

There are 2 brass screws that allow you to adjust the lockdown bar. If you've never done it before, it can take some fiddling. Sometimes helps to lift the PF to see how the screws adjust the mechanism...

snaroff

#2523 6 years ago
Quoted from hoby1:

Seriously....... theres a lot of viable complaints and then there a huge bunch of whiners. WTF..... I have never bought a game that played great right out of the box. I spend days, if not weeks tweaking in every aspect of the game. I cant believe were even bringing up stuff like.... had to adjust lock bar, my screws were loose, or my glass rattles with a shaker.
Most of us do like I do and thats why our games play perfect..... period!

I think you know the answer. Some folks are fairly new to this...that's all.

I'm sure the remakes are popular with folks skeptical of owning 30 year old pinball machines (due to maintenance issues). Now they have their freshly made pinball and realize that even newly built games have issues (some more than others). The shooter lane issue we both worked on and numerous other issues are likely disturbing to the virgins among us. Patience

snaroff

#2530 6 years ago
Quoted from bitpatrol:

I don't think anyone is whining ( sounds childish )... most of us are super-into this and are on a mission to perfect... so all the 'negatives' come to light and get dealt with that way. How do you know something is the best unless you try to punch a hole in it? If it was all sunshine and lollipops, the quality and design would never improve, so all the 'complaints' is actually valuable feedback companies used to pay focus groups for. If someone does not care, they won't give strong feedback and demand more. ( supply and demand ). The worse thing that can happen is people lose interest, and that won't happens anytime soon by the looks of the posts

Yep. And to be honest, I'm not a huge fan of the B/W lockdown bar design. Stern adopted a simple 2-hinge design on all their pins and it works great. Initially, Stern customers thought the design was purely a cost cutting measure, however Steve Ritchie apparently lobbied for it because it's sturdy and didn't require adjustments. Not implying CGC should have adopted the Stern mechanism, just pointing out that CGC inherited a so-so design (just like the ancient shooter mech, which requires fiddling). In the future, I really hope CGC looks to improve on the B/W design when cost effective and practical.

snaroff

#2539 6 years ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

Tend to disagree here. Stern bars have no adjustment. So when they get loose... then what. I had a LOTR that had a loose lock bar, I never could figure a way to tighten it. I really like W/B lock bars because they can adjust. I have all my games dialed in just right on the lock bar tightness.

That's cool. I know some folks feel strongly about one vs. the other. All the Stern's I've owned with the hinge adjustments "just work" without fiddling.

LOTR doesn't use the new fangled hinges I'm talking about, so it's not a relevant comparison. My LOTR has a B/W like lockdown that can be adjusted.

snaroff

#2560 6 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

You should be happy just to have this adjustment; before Stern stopped using lockdown bars, they swapped to a lockdown bar that was not adjustable...so if its not tight, that's just the way it is.
Yes there is a little Stern bashing here and they deserve it for removing the lockdown and maintenance rails.

I use to think the new, non-adjustable hinges were a step back, however all my Sterns with the 2-hinge mech work flawlessly. So while I bitched initially, I'm a convert. I'm curious, have you actually had a Stern with the new mech fail on you? All my B/W lockdown bars feel different even when dialed in...it may be adjustable, but the B/W lockdown mechanism is far from perfect.

I agree Stern's decision to remove the maintenance rails (on the Pros) was a huge slap in the face. I've been lobbying Stern to stop shipping the pegs for years. I'm hopeful they will unify around the rails again soon.

In any event, the Stern missteps are minor compared with all the issues discussed in this thread (blown boards, flippers that throw the ball around uncontrollably, flippers that lack any B/W feel whatsoever, shooter lane issues, VUK adjustments, topper failures, lockdown bar adjustments, etc.). Not claiming all AFMr's exhibit these issues, but quite a few do...

snaroff

#2572 6 years ago
Quoted from bitpatrol:

yes, but some of us were never notified to stop playing at -20 flipper power. It's like buying a new car, not getting the recall notice, and being told by the manufacturer that the dealer is responsible, but the dealer not sending the notice or stating the manufacturer was responsible. Everyone expects mistakes, but we need stuff like this improved upon so feedback is the best medicine. Maybe your dealer did their job, but some of us bought from the BIGGEST dealer and got f-all.

Good points. No doubt the manufacturer/distributor communication channels need to work (and Stern, JJP, and CGC all have slightly different cultures and processes).

The "cargument" makes no sense on many levels. If my car wasn't drivable for a couple months, the dealer would put me in a car of comparable value. Car manufacturing is down to a science driven by automation. Pinball manufacturing is an art with little automation. If a car has a major malfunction, lives are at stake. If a pinball malfunctions, ball/boards/coils are at stake.

CGC hit a speed-bump with AFMr. Not the end of the world, just a bummer for those of us that wanted to enjoy our 8-9k toy over the holidays. Oh well. Just happy my car is more reliable than my AFMr. There ya go, always a positive way to look at a situation

snaroff

#2611 6 years ago
Quoted from bigd1979:

All 3 get old in a small collection....trust me. I had all 3 and 6 other pins and now only afm remains. Variety is a good thing imo . Reason y i only have 1 stern pin is bc they all feel basically the same imo.

Couldn't agree more on AFM/MM/MB...shit, I had all of them in a large collection and they got old

Sounds like you haven't played enough Sterns...Tron, AC/DC, and LOTR are all classics and very "different" games.

snaroff

#2619 6 years ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

This is an opinion that varies from person to person. I too have had a large collection with all of these. I like the term "staying power". IMHO MM and AFM have the most staying power. (one of the reasons they are ranked as high as they are in the polls) These games are great anchor games for a small to midsized collection. I also have a SS that is HUO that I have had for over 12yrs. I really like it when someone says that its too easy and gets old quick. I will ask them how many times have they been "Spider Champion" (one of the hardest achievements in pinball) Since now you can pick up a MMR or a AFMr and soon a MBr for a decent price, (or maybe a nice original) it's a slam dunk in my book to own all three!

Sure, everyone has different priorities & tastes. Getting to a machines ultimate wizard mode (which is hopefully uncommon for most machines) and the day-to-day experience of playing it are 2 different things. For me, a pinball collection should also have diversity of designers...

snaroff

#2630 6 years ago

Airball protectors? Wow. Hopefully they are temporary. Once a pinball machine is dialed in, airballs should be a rare occurrence.

snaroff

#2669 6 years ago
Quoted from Miknan:

My splitting cabinet. The legs weren’t that tight so I wonder what caused that. Are all pinball cabinets put together with glue?

Have no idea, but I've owned 40+ machines over the years and I've *never* had to glue a cabinet seam. Newly constructed cabinets shouldn't separate and adding glue to "fix" the separation doesn't sound right. Crazy.

snaroff

#2678 6 years ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

Unless they're the second owner in the warranty period, in which case CGC will do nothing under warranty.

That's unclear. Both JJP and Stern have a history of supporting me on recent model, 2nd owner pins. Considering CGC takes support seriously and AFMr has had some common, non-trivial speed bumps, I imagine CGC will take care of folks.

snaroff

#2685 6 years ago
Quoted from tbutler6:

This is decal failure due to it being wrapped or "overstretched" and wrapped around the edges. Nothing more. We saw this on the SE's when this thread first started as people began to unbox. Not a good situation with the decals, as mine has some very small cracking on the right side, but its not cabinet failure. No chance.

That makes more sense. Sounds like a poor decision to wrap the decal...none of my other recent pins with decals are wrapped.

snaroff

#2692 6 years ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

I'm speaking from firsthand experience. For example, according to them, can't get the updated pic chip that fixes a pretty serious potential electrical problem with the flippers under warranty unless I'm the first owner. Extremely lame of CGC.

Couldn't agree more. That sucks...big time. Very lame. To be honest, I think it's lame that all the companies warranties aren't transferrable. The only reason more collectors don't freak out is Stern/JJP still support most folks. I know they've supported me, despite what the "fine print" on the warranty says.

snaroff

#2700 6 years ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

It's a SUPER TERRIBLE policy for CGC being a supposed "premium" vendor, and definitely asking a premium price. Both Stern and JJP will support second and third owners in the warranty period in a limited way (things like cabinet sticker nitpicks, no, broken boards and coils, yes, in my experience). Essentially the two year CGC LE warranty isn't worth the paper it's written on when you factor in the reality of the high end collector market where machines move sometimes in MONTHS, not years.
Anyway, I was told this PIC thing is more like a recall and they should cover it if I contact them directly instead of going to the distributor as is the usual policy (the policy I followed when I was denied). I'm a little less steamed, but only a little. This really bad warranty system will restrict their growth once more collectors get a taste of the wrong side of it. Made me a LOT less excited about anything CGC announces next, that's for sure.

I was denied by the distributor (not one I've ever used, the one that sold this to this original owner), citing CGC policy. However, I've now been told to contact CGC directly since this PIC thing is more like a recall and they'll handle it. I'll report back.

Being denied by the distributor makes total sense. That's "normal". I bet if you work directly with CGC they will take care of you.

Since all the games have a build date, seems like the warranty should be based on time, not owner. Period.

snaroff

#2702 6 years ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

I was just following the policy CGC set by contacting the distributor. Giving CGC a shot directly after being told this is more like a recall on the PIC chip.
And see above, making a transferrable warranty a selling point of the LE level would turn a major CGC negative into a positive.

They should make the warranty transferrable across models. The LE already has warranty perks over the other models...

snaroff

#2726 6 years ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

To recap. If you're not the original owner, you're screwed as of this moment.
Contacted distributor. Denied.
Contacted CGC. Crickets.
Just released CGC facebook post says CGC will not be sending PIC chips out directly.
Still hoping CGC does the right thing, but not looking good for non-original owners still in the machine's warranty period. This silent recall aside, CGC absolutely has the worst warranty policy for second and third owners of their very expensive machines. JJP and even Stern are better.

Can't imagine the new chip is very costly, so I'm missing the financial hardship of "doing the right thing" and supporting secondary owners. I guess it's conceivable they don't want to set a precedent like Stern/JJP? Who knows. I'm hopeful they are just overwhelmed and will reach out to you soon.

snaroff

#2734 6 years ago

Confused how hitting the cab would cause that damage...

#2780 6 years ago
Quoted from hoby1:

Yeah it sux but to be honest I had two of my three original AFMs do this also. Its not a CGC thing.

Curious...were your originals natural or restored? Any intimation that originals suffer from the same quality control problems is just off target. Hopefully you are talking about a very narrow CQ issue.

I've been playing my HEP AFM all week and can't believe how much better it plays than the AFMr I owned. Ball zips around the PF with amazing strength with 0 airballs or balls falling off wireforms. 7 years since HEP restored it...thousands of plays...no PF damage with minimal protection, no wireform breakage, feels much more solid in general. Most importantly, it *plays* much better...dramatic difference in flipper feel. The AFMr flippers felt awful to me...nothing like B/W flippers.

I don't begrudge remake advocates, but any notion that remakes are inherently better than originals because they are "newer" with modern tech haven't played a finely-tuned original.

snaroff

#2789 6 years ago
Quoted from pintechev:

I don’t think you can or should compare a factory game to one restored and dialed in by one of the greatest restoration people in the hobby. It’s not a comment on CGC or their quality, far from it. I just don’t think that you can say that they should be the same.

I'm not saying they should be the same. What I'm saying is if someone is in the market, they shouldn't assume newer is always better. That's all. Hopefully, that's not a controversial statement!

There are MANY talented restorers. HEP might be one of the best known, but there are a significant number of restored AFM's that rock.

I love what CGC is trying to do with AFMr (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/afmr-an-le-that-feels-like-an-le), however they need to step up their attention to detail and QA. ANY company that decides to remake a classic game is going to be compared with the original!

snaroff

#2815 6 years ago
Quoted from Damien:

You can see a big chip to the right side of the SOL.
The hole behind the spaceship where the balls drop into is even worse.
WTF is up with the clearcoats!?!?

I plan on shopping my original later, and thought I'd post a photo to compare. This restoration is 7-8 years old with ~1000-2000 plays? The computer memory was wiped clean several times, so I don't have a precise game count. Actually sold it to another collector and got it back after a couple years.

You can see the ball is hitting the Mantis protector in exactly the same spot without chipping the clear. It appears the Mantis protector on mine is a tad higher than yours, which might explain why it's doing a better job protecting the clear.

Nevertheless, I agree that clear coats are much more fragile on some of the recent game being produced (don't think it's AFMr specific).

snaroff

IMG_8780 (resized).JPGIMG_8780 (resized).JPG

#2838 6 years ago
Quoted from Damien:

Was speaking to Ron Kruzman about these clearcoat issues, and he was telling me that when he does a pf, he puts in 8 coats, but there are setting periods in between a lot of these coats. Some even a few weeks before putting on additional coats. And when he's done with the 8, he'll occasionally do a couple more to ensure it is perfect.
And then there's my AFMR that was chipping after 50 games!

Ron does gorgeous work, but it has little to do with the chipping issues. I don't think it's fair to expect the CGC's CC process to compete with Ron, however chipping after 50 games is really unfortunate.

It's possible to have a cost effective CC that doesn't chip! CGC and JJP seem to have more CC chipping issues than Stern. I've owned many Stern pins and haven't had chipping issues. Not saying there aren't examples of Stern PF's chipping, but my experience has been good.

Ron's process can cost $700-$1000, and that's quite reasonable given the time and attention to detail. If this level of detail is what you seek, I'm sure you can find a restored original for not much more than AFMr costs. Here is a fairly recent FS post: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/fs-custom-restored-attack-from-mars-must-see.

snaroff

#2846 6 years ago
Quoted from pintechev:

Agree.
Whether or not this is happening faster on the remake is tangential to the fact that nearly ALL original machines have significant wear in those two spots.
Marc

The originals suffered wear after thousands of plays. Chipping after 50 games is just odd, and I'm surprised you think it's tangential. From my perspective, chipping/damage has cropped up much more over the past year with some NIB pins.

snaroff

#2904 6 years ago
Quoted from Newbie979:

It seems like I can’t get to switch the bend it where it needs to be. What do you suggest on how to bending it and how much would I bend it? Thanks

I usually verify the switch isn't firing in test mode. Then I see if pressing the switch down a bit causes it to fire. If so, you've confirmed a minor adjustment is all you need.

snaroff

1 week later
#3094 6 years ago
Quoted from bitpatrol:

I"m still not clear on the benefits of getting an old one... older parts, damage, more work, fewer features all for the same price? Maybe if the older one was less than 1/2 the price of a new one, I would consider an old one. I think some may 'feel' they own something vintage with the older one, but it's like saying an old Ferrari is better than a new one... Also, as soon as you start modifying the old one, it's no longer a real 'vintage' it's like an old car with lots of kit stuff..

I'm curious, have you ever owned a B/W original? The car analogy is ridiculous on many levels.

snaroff

#3139 6 years ago
Quoted from pintechev:

Ron is a collector quality clear coat guy. He is the most extreme example of perfection that you can get. No production game should be expected to hold the standard. And if it did, it would be much more expensive.
I am sorry; you can not compare them. They aren’t comparable.

I've worked with both Ron Kruzman (Paragon) and Chris Hutchins (AFM) and they do wonderful work.

If folks want Ron/Chris level fit-and-finish for the price of the remake, they don't understand the economics of pinball manufacturing or restoration. My HEP AFM cost 12-13k back in 2010. Breakdown: $3,500 for base machine, $3,000 parts, $5,500 labor, $500 shipping. In today's money, would probably be closer to 16k (and doesn't include a fancy topper This is 2x the price of the remake...

Nevertheless, I think the recent PF chipping issues are disturbing (not unique to CGC). From my perspective, these issues are fixable without jumping to the conclusion that Kruzman/Hutchins are the solution.

snaroff

#3200 6 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

To be perfectly honest, this is one area that CGC needs to do much better. The fix is extremely simple and they can follow Sterns lead in this area as all they need is a place on their sire for know problems, just like stern has their service bulletins so that owners can find out about these issues BEFORE they become a bigger problem. IMO The only reason not to do this is it costs the company money.

Good point, but CGC's ticket process/software is better than Stern's.

#3229 6 years ago
Quoted from bitpatrol:

Why do folks confuse reporting issues with a product as somehow being 'upset' or unhappy with life, or need to be told 'just have fun man! don't worry so much about it'. That is what you would tell a child... Also, how do you know what everyone else's idea of a good time is? how could you possibly know what others want or are thinking? I personally have a blast troubleshooting and striving for perfection. What sucks is not getting straight answers, for example; "Where do I find official notifications for my AFMrLE?"

Yep. It's also true that we all have different thresholds for how much BS we are willing to tolerate. Doesn't mean we aren't having fun...means we have standards. I appreciate folks who aren't shy about discussing quality issues, since it helps the entire community. fwiw, I was one of the first AFMr owners to push for shooter lane and solenoid board fixes with CGC/Doug.

I no longer own my AFMr...invested several weeks back in December iterating with CGC and didn't feel like waiting another 6 weeks for the recent chip update. In today's market, there are many other choices. Since the R&D for a "remake" is substantially less than developing a brand new game, it's unfortunate the electronics and build quality weren't more rock solid out of the gate. Took my 8k invested in AFMrLE and purchased a DILE with 20 plays for $7,750.

snaroff

#3245 6 years ago
Quoted from Lermods:

I thought you had a lot of issues with your di too, or is this another di you got?

I did have issues with DI, however they were all mechanical and fairly minor in retrospect (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/dialing-in-dialed-in-le-96). 0 electrical problems or board failures. Dialing In Dialed in was kind of fun. It's clear that many of my issues were the result of JJP pushing the boundaries...DI is a very loaded game. Considering all of the mechs and fancy ramps/transitions, it's just a harder game to build & tune. OTOH, my AFMrLE woes surrounded shooter lane misfires and flipper board blowups...much more basic failures.

snaroff

#3277 6 years ago
Quoted from bitpatrol:

I'm a bit embarrassed to say I installed a full playfield protector when I got my AFMrLE a few months ago, and will leave it on. ( total newb move I guess, but I"m leaving it on to protect ) Will any of the playfield issues show themselves even though I have a PP? Like crazing or other issues... I'm thinking maybe I'm masking issues by not playing on it, and am thinking maybe I should find out before the warranty runs out.
Also, I have a blast playing the pinball machine, but I guess I really suck since I never put in my initials. I thought I was doing great with all the lights and sounds effects going off, but not so much... Is there a strategy I should start implementing to get a decent score?

Leaving the PP on is a mistake. They should be banned...

Learn to play from a master...

http://pinballvideos.com/v/301

snaroff

-1
#3283 6 years ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

So don't let anyone try to super impose their opinions on you about protectors. You make the choice if they are worth it or not.

Such a silly comment, when newbie's ask for advice on all aspects of pinball. How do I learn the rules? How to I fix this or that? What machine should I buy, this vs. that?

PF protectors result in a game that's less enjoyable to play. If you don't believe they negatively effect play, then I don't know what to tell you. Geez...I even hate the way some mylar effects gameplay. After removing the magnet mylar from my Dialed In, the magnet behavior is way more predictable. But don't let us more experienced pinballers super impose our "opinions"

Whatever,

snaroff

#3332 6 years ago
Quoted from Damien:

Nature of the beast I suppose. The shooter lane in my 1 year old MMR was starting to look like my 22 year old TOM!
The true shame is that a lot of people (many right here in this thread) just accept it.

This is shocking and unacceptable in a home-use environment. If it's true, I guess I'm a little more sympathetic about PF protectors

snaroff

#3394 6 years ago
Quoted from cooked71:

With no cliffy’s? My DILE scoops showed signs of chipping after 20 games before I put cliffy’s on.
And I’ve had both the other games, both of which required major tweaking/complete playfield swaps.

It's kind of odd that the SIM card scoop is where most of the damage crops up, despite the shots well known difficultly *AND* it isn't a VUK! Weird...

snaroff

#3434 6 years ago
Quoted from pintechev:

My boss said something pretty profound recently which was that the most important thing was to show up and have the conversation. Even if it doesn’t always go your way, it’s critical to participate.

In a work environment, I guess I can understand the wisdom. In social media land, I'm not so sure I see the virtue. If "going your way" means convincing others of anything, then I'm afraid you are setting yourself up for disappointment (or a bloody forehead

fwiw, the continual drone of PF chipping and dimpling is very tiresome. Folks that lose sleep over this should probably find another hobby.

snaroff

#3470 6 years ago
Quoted from bitpatrol:

Also, if you provide answers, it may be more helpful if you provide justification and not just "playfield protectors should be banned" etc... without backing up with any details about why.
Oops, did not mean to double post

I've never tried a PF protector. My opinion is based solely on owning a lot of machines and never feeling the need for one. All my machines have held up great over the years, so I guess my snarky opinion on PF protectors is without deep R&D

Having owned many pinball machines, homes, furniture, etc., I can tell you that anything built primarily by humans has gone down in quality over the past decade. Stern machines build in 2004 (LOTR, TSPP) are noticeably more solid. My LOTR has many thousands of plays and still looks/plays great. The GIMLI switch was replaced one month after unboxing and since then 0 switches have failed.

snaroff

#3473 6 years ago
Quoted from bitpatrol:

I don't think we are losing sleep, just some of us are using this forum to learn things more experienced folks such as yourself have gone over to your satisfaction at one point on your own schedule. I'm sure you needed to ask the very same questions being asked here to come to a logical conclusion about how much chipping is expected, and if everyone told you to go away and stop talking or thinking about it, you would not have the knowledge to think you can convince others they are wasting time looking for the same answers.

I was lucky to have local pinball mentors. Online mentorship can work, but it's tougher since nothing beats seeing/playing a game in person.

Some folks are clearly consumed by PF damage issues. I respect folks with damage want CGC to do a "mea culpa" and fix the chipping problems, but it ain't going to happen.

The pinball manufacturers all have distinct corporate cultures that we have to work with. If you don't agree with how your game is performing and aren't satisfied with the companies response, spend your money elsewhere. As many others have pointed out, voting with your dollars is the way to go.

snaroff

#3712 6 years ago
Quoted from Onwallst:

I think you are spot on!!! But other restore guys say it is the process. They sand off clear and re clear correctly and it lasts. Kruzman does it perfectly.

I've owned a fair number of pins and cars and from my perspective, it's BS that newer car paint jobs aren't as beautiful and resilient. The pin issue is much more about the craftsmanship and cost of skilled labor. I have no doubt the wood might not be as hard and the paint/clear might be "less great", however any notion that you can't create a GORGEOUS PF with today's materials is misguided. Pinball issues are largely about cost cutting to improve a companies bottom line...

snaroff

#3716 6 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

Of course, it is all about cost. Pinball companies will cut costs wherever they can. It is when it affects the final product where the end user balks.
In the case of CGC/PPS, you are talking about companies that initially skimped on coin mechs of all things.

And my age old pet peeve of Stern not providing reasonable PF support on Pro games...just to save a couple bucks. And realize that this isn't a "collector thing"...pins on location also benefit since flipper maintenance I've been bending Stern's executive ears on this issue since they made the change...hopefully they will stop the insanity soon.

snaroff

#3729 6 years ago
Quoted from TVsFrank:

I'm going to take off my lurker hat for a minute, and say that this is exactly why I'm no longer going to order a Classic edition next month.
While I've never bought a NIB pin before, I'm aware that all have a risk and sometimes you need some things fixed immediately upon opening it. However, this whole game of only telling people "no" through phone calls so that you can avoid public statements around things that may be wrong is just disgusting. Telling people on phone calls that having an ENTIRE COLOR MISSING from their playfield is okay, and its just "artistic differences" between machines is the biggest middle finger to their customers I can imagine.
I've wanted this game since it was announced. This was the game that I found in a pizza parlor in college that turned pinball from "fun in an arcade" to a hobby for me. I've saved, hit setbacks, kept on going, and gotten the go-ahead from the wife because it was THIS title, the one that was so important to me. I know a purchase like this isn't a big deal for some people, but for me its a huge step in the hobby-as well as my only chance to ever feel comfortable with the price of this title.
And now I would be playing roulette if I ordered one. There have been quite a few people posting problems with missing colors or other playfield issues, yet all we hear are a few brave people saying that they got a phone call saying "no."
I'm out, and I'm more saddened than angry. The titles they have waiting in the wings would have been my best chance for ever owning those machines for a price that I'm comfortable with, machines from my era for really discovering pinball.
My Grandfather always said that you shouldn't measure people by their mistakes, but by how they deal with them. While I'm still waiting to hear Onwallst's story, I have a feeling that given the overall silence by people having larger issues, what he is saying is correct and that there is very little to measure in CGC's business practices.
I know that the loss of one Classic Edition won't hurt them at all, but I do want them to be aware that future buyers who aren't vocal on forums are watching all of this very closely.

Since AFM is your desired title from your past, I have a simple suggestion...consider scooping up an original! May take a little patience, but you've already waited this long The "remake price hit" has resulted in much more affordable restored/original AFM's. fwiw, I owned both an original and remake AFM for a brief moment in time. I still own an original...the remake was returned to my distributor in December after shooter lane woes and 2 solenoid board blowouts (all occurring within the first 20 plays!).

Hope you eventually own AFM...great game!

snaroff

#3737 6 years ago
Quoted from TVsFrank:

Apologies for my original post, it wasn't supposed to sound so much like an woe-is-me angsty teen who just broke up with his girlfriend.
Snaroff: You'd better believe that if the stars align and make it possible I"ll be ready! (This is my second post in a year, I'll learn how to multi-quote next year.)

No need to apologize! I read your post as someone trying to make an informed decision before spending a boatload of cash! You are being wise beyond most angsty teens

If swapping out PF's were as simple and cost effective as swapping a chip/board, I'm confident CGC would be handling the PF issues in a timely fashion. Unfortunately, the problems aren't as binary and the solution is *much* more costly. If the PF issues start falling into a pattern, it might be easier for CGC to come up with a resolution. Stern once sent me a populated PF for issues with my AC/DC (cloudy lower PF window, shooter lane clear coat problems, etc.)...a solution that decided to implement for many of us.

snaroff

#3812 6 years ago
Quoted from pinballaddicted:

There are not "a lot" of disgruntled customers, that is just what you keep saying.

Con,

I know of disgruntled customers that aren't Pinsiders. The notion that everyone who owns a pinball machine is represented here is flawed. I also know of disgruntled customers that watch Pinside but don't post. Not everyone is as vocal as we are

Only CGC has the "real" disgruntled data. As a result, your claim isn't factual unless you have insider information.

Not trying to say the sky is falling, just that all of us really only know our own experience (with CGC). Everything else is speculation.

Intuitively, if the number of PF issues is *really small*, CGC would be foolish if they didn't take care of folks (since it wouldn't put a big dent in their bottom line). They are a fairly new company and their quality and approach to service is likely a work in progress.

snaroff

#3893 6 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

In summation:
If you experience small (inexpensive) problems such as cracked plastics CGC will take care of you.
If you are experiencing more significant (expensive) problems such as playfield or cabinet issues, CGC's warranty is worthless.
If you have your heart set on a CGC machine make certain you pay with a credit card so that you will be able to file a chargeback if necessary. Unfortunately, based upon the findings in this thread, you will have no other recourse with CGC.
Happy Flipping!

You have pushed the credit card idea several times in this thread. I'm curious, have *you* ever reversed an 8k pinball purchase CC charge?

snaroff

#3902 6 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

No, I have never filed a chargeback on an 8K pinball machine.
I have filed a chargeback on a 12K oven that never worked properly from the day it was installed. No matter how many technicians the manufacturer sent to my home, they could never get it to operate properly. I was told the performance we were experiencing with the oven was as good as it was going to get and there was nothing else that could be done. Within 2 weeks of the chargeback, the manufacturer picked up the oven from my home and a refund was issued.

Well I'm happy it worked for your oven, but something tells me the process wouldn't be as smooth for a pinball machine (small vs. large company, hand-built vs. machine produced, shipping cost, etc.). I'd also be surprised if many pinball distributors even accepted a CC payment for 8K (considering costly transaction fees). Most car companies limit a charge to 2-3k.

I think the suggestion recently put forth (regarding buying/verifying from a reputable/local distributor) makes the most sense. The only problem is convenience, since pinball distributors are fairly small in numbers (i.e. not on every street corner

snaroff

#3906 6 years ago

Here is some food for thought on playfields...

When you purchase a playfield from CPR (which I've done for several of my restorations), they place them into 3 "buckets" (Gold, Silver, & Bronze). Gold being the most flawless/expensive. CPR has pretty strict inspection criteria for what constitutes a Gold vs. Silver vs. Bronze PF.

When a pinball manufacturer is taking delivery of PF's, they have the same issue as CPR...not all PF's are equal. In an ideal world, the pinball manufacturer would do the same inspection as CPR and only use "Gold" PF's. Unfortunately, there is tension between producing/shipping machines and iterating with PF inspection & manufacturing.

snaroff

#3910 6 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

Get ready to be surprised, all of my NIB purchases (18) were paid in full with a credit card.

Wow! I'm curious...how many distributors have you worked with?

snaroff

#3913 6 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

I have purchased through a couple of distributors.
However, which distributors do not take a credit card? All of the big guys do and they typically add around 3.5% to the price which is good with me.

AHHH...I take back my "WOW". Most folks aren't willing to throw another 3.5% down the drain for such a large purchase.

snaroff

#3922 6 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

True, but I am guessing most of the folks stuck in the boat with CGC would gladly pay the 3.5% now.

False. You can't assume the CC is going to honor your pushback on such a large purchase. Pinball machines aren't ovens and I'm pretty sure that unless your case was crystal clear, the distributor and company would fight the CC company pretty hard. For example, let's say that you had some clear coat chipping...are you really confident that the return process would be straightforward? I'm not.

In any event, you clearly don't mind spending the extra money for piece of mind. That's cool. My point is CC companies don't always "roll over" easily if the vendor doesn't acknowledge the problem! Since you've never returned a pinball machine, you don't have proof that your 3.5% is money well spent.

snaroff

#3924 6 years ago
Quoted from jmagla:

Yes, I'm very happy too, and I imagine that the vast majority are very happy. But the question to ask is how many of us very happy chappies would be very happy if we encountered some of the colour/playfield issues that a small minority have?

Bingo. If CGC disclosed that 5% of a PF "run" had the color issue and they were in the process of resolving these issues, case closed. Everyone happy. Shit happens.

Refusing to acknowledge PF issues clearly documented & identified by EXPERIENCED pinball collectors is unacceptable. Inexperienced pinball owners usually don't know what to look for.

snaroff

#3930 6 years ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

I couldn't agree more ..... although in my experience with American Express is if you have pics, and provide proof of damage then they will back you, and not back down to the distributor. My question is where are the distributors in this discussion? Are they washing their hands? they should be front and center on this issue.

Bingo. Folks with PF issues need to work closely with their distributors. I've purchased many pins from distributors and they rarely need to do anything. They book the business and pocket the money. When small problems occur, I've dealt directly with the manufacturer. When I had my "big" AC/DC PF issue, my distributor (Little Shop of Games) supported me and helped represent me with Stern. When the populated PF was approved by Stern, they swapped it out for me (about a 4 hour job). Simply put, if a distributor isn't actively supporting you, get a new distributor! In general, I've had good luck/experience with distributors...

snaroff

#3938 6 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

I have assumed nothing and never participate in a transaction of over a few hundred dollars based upon assumptions.
I stated previously that I had already spoken with Amex and that they confirmed I would be covered in the event of a chipping playfield, split cabinet or even faulty artwork. I provided my Amex representative the name of the manufacturer, the product name (Attack from Mars Remake) and the name of an authorized dealer who sells the product. The representative told me that I would most likely be required to provide detailed photos in the event of an issue. I confirmed this process each time I purchased a NIB Stern machines as well.
Of course, the distributor will respond to the chargeback, but I will guarantee you that a response to Amex mentioning "artistic character" won't cut it.
I really hope all of this gets worked out for the existing customers and for CGC in the long run.

Well we've both purchased a fair number of games and I've avoided the 3.5% credit/insurance tax and you've never benefitted from it. I understand if it helps you sleep better, but I'm glad we aired the issue since you were advising folks to do something which ultimately results in added cost. No free lunch.

My $.02...the distributor cost/profit should be all the insurance we need when purchasing these high cost items! Let's face it, as previously stated, a very high percentage of transactions are without issue, so expecting the distributor to "do the right thing" is what we should expect as a community. I would imagine most distributors are making 5-10% on each transaction.

If we were all purchasing directly from the manufacturer, I would have more sympathy for your suggestion to use a credit card (even if it costs an extra 3.5%).

snaroff

#3945 6 years ago
Quoted from gliebig:

^Those are some really good comparisons.

Really? Comparing a pinball machine with a Seadoo? and baseball bat? Please...probably the worst comparisons I've ever heard.

For good or bad, MANY pinball owners consider their games "kinetic, playable art". If the PF art weren't considered important, there would be 0 reason to apply clearcoat. The clear is applied to protect the paint/art...hello! Cabinet art is also carefully scrutinized...as it should be. Took years for companies to figure out how to avoid messing up decals with ink that doesn't fade and leg brackets that avoid tearing up the decals. Please.

snaroff

#3955 6 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

It is not a free lunch, but it is a cheap lunch at only $227.50 on a $6,500 machine. I am sure all of the CGC customers who are currently taking it on the chin would pay it now.
I am not sure what a distributor can do if CGC is unwilling to bend here. What do you think?

Many distributors are also collectors that have been "around the block". If a distributor is convinced a PF has significant flaws, then they should apply sufficient pressure to have the manufacturer correct the situation (not specific to CGC).

The distributor should be an advocate for the buyer. As I said in a previous post, that's what happened when my AC/DC PF had flaws. From my perspective, a distributor driven resolution is more desirable than having the credit card company intervene. Why? I really loved the game and just wanted it to be "right". I really wasn't interested in merely getting my money back.

In my case, Stern "did the right thing" for me and many others. If Stern didn't do the right thing, I would have spoken with the distributor about potentially buying back my game and issuing me a credit on a future game.

Like it or not, CGC will be compared with Stern and JJP quality and service. That's only natural and completely valid. On paper, CGC's LE has the best warranty in the business.

snaroff

#3983 6 years ago
Quoted from Pin_Guy:

If you buy your game from a local distributor you are paying the 7.25% California state tax on that. If you order the same exact machine from say Automated Services in Connecticut with your credit card you are paying the additional massive 3.5% credit card fee and paying no state tax on your out of state purchase. Seems like it costs you 3.75% LESS to not pay cash to your local distributor

Hmm. Not sure how to respond, since state tax is a separate issue. Most of my games were purchased out-of-state (while living in Florida). Ironically, the AC/DC was purchased at Little Shop of Games in Florida (where I paid state tax). It was the only NIB I've ever had a major problem with and totally lucked out (having the full support of LSOG).

So while it's possible to buy games across state borders and avoid paying state taxes, it can bite you in the arse if/when you need local support!

snaroff

#3984 6 years ago
Quoted from NeilMcRae:

I did a charge back on an Aston Martin DB9...
Neil.

What does that mean, exactly? That your made a 100k-ish charge to your credit card? Then returned the car?

snaroff

#4013 6 years ago
Quoted from paynemic:

Here’s mine:
I’ve never owned an original so tbh I didn’t notice the difference till it was pointed out in this thread. It’s amazing to play though! Kicked my butt so many times today then I got 4 blue lights and felt I was on my way to rtu. Then... drain

Man, those colors are way off...look at the roof. I've attached a photo from my HEP AFM...the PF was produced by Mirco and touched up & clear coated by HEP. Here is a photo from the archives of an original PF that seems consistent with mine (http://www.ipdb.org/showpic.pl?id=3781&picno=9820).

snaroff

Screen Shot 2018-02-20 at 8.08.08 PM (resized).pngScreen Shot 2018-02-20 at 8.08.08 PM (resized).png

#4022 6 years ago
Quoted from PinMonk:

Bull. There's a thing called PMS color. Printers use it all the time to get EXACT colors EVERY TIME they run the same job. We're not in the 1950s. There's color matching tech even outside PMS that yields results that are consistent.

Exactly. The color differences aren't minor/subtle. It's almost like some paint pigment was "running low" while some of the PF's shown above were being produced.

snaroff

#4052 6 years ago
Quoted from PtownPin:

Personally I don't think the colors are that big a deal, but the planking and warranty issues are a really BIG deal in my mind.

I agree. I don't think comparing remake PF colors with original PF colors is all that interesting for AFMr owners. From my perspective, the bigger deal is comparing AFMr PF's with other AFMr PF's. Again, I'll use Stern's AC/DC PF issues as an example. When the game was released, the first run had very cloudy under-PF windows (caused by some funky clear coat that didn't cure properly with the large/clear plastic insert). When folks started selling, it became a resale issue (i.e. buyers were concerned if the example for sale had the "cloudy window" or not). The games with the cloudy windows were worth less to many buyers. So while some of these aesthetic issues obviously don't effect gameplay, they can effect resale value.

snaroff

1 week later
#4368 6 years ago
Quoted from PinLen83:

Obligated to post this 35-40 min game extra difficult settings.

Where do you have the outlane posts set If open 100%, I'm impressed...

snaroff

#4370 6 years ago
Quoted from bigdaddy07:

What if he had 28? Would that have made is opinion more or less worthy then if he only had 5?

I think the point is more games purchased/owned, the more experience with what to expect from the game, distributors, manufacturers. Speaking for myself, when I was new at pinball ownership 15 years ago, I was fairly clueless. Get upset at stupid stuff. Today, I realize if you are serious about pinball you realize it's a hobby and you need to get your hands dirty (even for NIB pins). I know this upsets some folks, but it's true. Pinball isn't a consumer product. It's more like a piano that needs tuning and care...

snaroff

1 week later
1 week later
#4647 6 years ago
Quoted from Time:

Onwallst thanks for your post. I was thinking of getting a AFMr but now I'm wondering if I'd be better off with a nice original.

I owned both for a brief moment in time and the ARMr is no longer in the house. I still believe what I said back in December (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/afmr-an-le-that-feels-like-an-le), however the "enhanced warranty" doesn't mean much if they don't address serious issues like the one mentioned by Onwallst. It's also a total bummer that the warranty isn't transferrable.

The good news (for you) is original AFM's are now more value priced

snaroff

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