Quoted from neverahighscore:

I think that is a great idea. If you're close to dealership, get game shipped to them and then have it setup to give it a full inspection before taking it home. I will do this for MBr

Quoted from Mike_J:

No, I have never filed a chargeback on an 8K pinball machine.
I have filed a chargeback on a 12K oven that never worked properly from the day it was installed. No matter how many technicians the manufacturer sent to my home, they could never get it to operate properly. I was told the performance we were experiencing with the oven was as good as it was going to get and there was nothing else that could be done. Within 2 weeks of the chargeback, the manufacturer picked up the oven from my home and a refund was issued.

Quoted from snaroff:

Well I'm happy it worked for your oven, but something tells me the process wouldn't be as smooth for a pinball machine (small vs. large company, hand-built vs. machine produced, shipping cost, etc.). I'd also be surprised if many pinball distributors even accepted a CC payment for 8K (considering costly transaction fees). Most car companies limit a charge to 2-3k.
I think the suggestion recently put forth (regarding buying/verifying from a reputable/local distributor) makes the most sense. The only problem is convenience, since pinball distributors are fairly small in numbers (i.e. not on every street corner
snaroff

Quoted from PinLen83:

Plus the added stress of a buyer backing out after unboxing. Not fun

Quoted from snaroff:

Well I'm happy it worked for your oven, but something tells me the process wouldn't be as smooth for a pinball machine (small vs. large company, hand-built vs. machine produced, shipping cost, etc.). I'd also be surprised if many pinball distributors even accepted a CC payment for 8K (considering costly transaction fees). Most car companies limit a charge to 2-3k.
I think the suggestion recently put forth (regarding buying/verifying from a reputable/local distributor) makes the most sense. The only problem is convenience, since pinball distributors are fairly small in numbers (i.e. not on every street corner
snaroff

Quoted from bitpatrol:

Would most of these issues not be resolved by CGC having their quality assurance person use a dsl camera to take a picture of the playfield and cabinet as the last step before boxing? At least on the LEs?

Quoted from Mike_J:

Get ready to be surprised, all of my NIB purchases (18) were paid in full with a credit card.

Quoted from snaroff:

When you purchase a playfield from CPR (which I've done for several of my restorations), they place them into 3 "buckets" (Gold, Silver, & Bronze). Gold being the most flawless/expensive. CPR has pretty strict inspection criteria for what constitutes a Gold vs. Silver vs. Bronze PF.

Quoted from snaroff:

Wow! I'm curious...how many distributors have you worked with?
snaroff

Quoted from Mike_J:

I have purchased through a couple of distributors.
However, which distributors do not take a credit card? All of the big guys do and they typically add around 3.5% to the price which is good with me.

Quoted from Mike_J:

I have purchased through a couple of distributors.
However, which distributors do not take a credit card? All of the big guys do and they typically add around 3.5% to the price which is good with me.

Quoted from snaroff:

AHHH...I take back my "WOW". Most folks aren't willing to throw another 3.5% down the drain for such a large purchase.
snaroff

Quoted from Onwallst:

So here is the full version that was requested as it was a busy holiday weekend.
I put in my ticket on the CGC online system. I received an email and call promptly the next day, I returned the call the following day. The call was from “Doug” as he is referred to on this thread. He started the call off asking about where I live etc. His children live here and he went to College around here etc. Asked about my business’s etc. We then began the topic on the AFMr and the issues regarding the playfield. He said they would immediately send out the plastics and they use the same manufacture many others are using and not sure why they are having the issues. He said that the playfield manufacturing is mostly by hand. Only the routing is automated. It was stated they purchase their wood from a “secret source.” It is cedar and ash. I asked which the ball surface was. He stated that cedar was the playfield surface but said he may have that backwards. Since it is a handmade product no two are alike. I mentioned the color issues and was told that this was “artistic character” and was to be expected on a handmade product. They view this as completely acceptable. He said in their view they build the world’s finest pinball machines. They use a 13 layer screen process where Stern only uses a 5 layer process. Other playfield manufactures use a more automated process which they believe is inferior. I mention the wrong screen colors and again was told that is up to the “artist.” He said the inserts are also hand installed and also will be “unique” between play fields. I asked about the planking and he said it is not planking but was in the surface prior to screening from not being “a fully prepared surface” and that it would not get any worse. This is expected when you are dealing with a handmade natural product. I stated that it is getting worse. He disagreed. I also stated that I own many pinball machines and many of the recent pinball playfields were made in his shop and they aren’t doing this or look like that. I also stated my MMr LE does not look like this. I also stated I can’t find a AFMr in Colorado that is not doing this. Even the one at the local dealer looks like this. He stated that they have only received a few complaints and these artistic characteristics are to be expected and acceptable. He also stated that the Warranty is at CGC’s sole discretion and is only 12 months on the LE playfield which he was willing to extend to 5 years. (Medieval Madness 12 month’s electronic/6 months other, AFM CE, 6/3, AFM SE 12/6 and the AFM LE 24/12) He did agree to send me the diffusers that I could never get from my dealer on my MMR and that I could not get CGC to send directly to me in the past. At this point he went into pinside and the things people are posting on there. He said he has a few employees and friends on there. He said all these things are completely normal and people need to stop posting. At that point I told him I was a poster and had posted things on there. He said people need to understand we make the best pinball machines and this is not like manufactures issues. He said that I need to stop posting. I changed the subject and asked if they were going to send me an email in writing on what we chatted about. He said it will be in the ticket. At this point he brought up the posting again and began pressing that they do not want people posting issues. I finally had enough and politly said thank you for his time and I am looking forward to the parts.
After I hung up I felt like I was just bullied and smoothed talk to believe and accept what they are telling me. I immediately notified my dealer that I was uncomfortable with the solution.
Fact #1 The warranty is 100% discretionary by CGC and the customer has no recourse.
Fact#2 The CGC system is great for small items but large items are phone calls with no documentation. One can’t record a phone conversation with a person in Illinois or PPS in Nevada as you need all parties to consent to the recording. Many have recorded them but can’t publicly display them.
Fact#3 The product comes in a box. One can’t inspect a game until it is opened at that point one owns it and it is under the full discretion of CGC if they deem it is “defects in material or workmanship”
Fact#4 When I bought this game the sales sheet did not disclose that this was a handmade product and it would be different than pictured. It did not disclose that playfield chipping may occur, grainy lines and planking are acceptable, putty maybe in the shooter lane and colors will not match. When I buy a “remake” I assume it is going to look like the original that it was re manufactured from. This includes the correct playfield surface and colors. Chipping is not acceptable in my other games and should not be accepted here. If the above disclosure was made most of us would not purchase the product.
Fact#5 The sales sheet did not disclose that only the original purchaser is covered by the warranty and that "CGC, at its sole discretion, will be liable to repair or replace components which are returned to CGC during the warranty period. CGC will repair or replace any covered part at no charge, exclusive of shipping and handling charges or any labor to install the part. Unless instructed otherwise, all defective parts be properly packaged and returned to CGC freight prepaid…No one is authorized to make modifications to this limited warranty."
CGC or “Doug” will not fix these items immediately once someone opens a ticket as many believe. They do this only on small items. The customer is just talked to with a silver tongue. CGC is illustrating to consumers chipping, wrong colors, insert ghosting, planking, poorly prepped surfaces, and putty are all acceptable. They can increase the warranty 20 years if none of these issues are covered. Everyday for the next 4 ½ years I get to look at playfeild that looks like crap is the bottom line. If CGC is not going to Warranty their products on major issues then I will warn suspecting new buyers. We all are doing that. I wish mine looked like some of yours. I have had a few friends just sell their games and take the loss. It is the luck of the draw and you will never know what yours looks like until you open it. If new major issues emerge lots of luck.
I currently own 27 pinball machines which I believe are the top games and ones I enjoy. I also bought and sold around 75 games to find the games I like and ones that are in better shape with great mods. I am not a new person to pinball. I have bought games from every major manufacture and have never seen such a disregard for the customer. Don’t tell me you are the best but show me. No one would be posting on here if that was the case. I bought both the MMr LE and the AFMr LE from CGC with matching numbers. Few can claim that. I have talked to many other customers/friends that wont post on here that have moved on. I will receive hate emails and pm’s. Some of these are friends of the manufacture and others I assume are employees. If I too take the loss and move on, CGC is off the hook since it would be a second owner. Great way out. Only way to sell is huge discount as looks like crap. This is what they prefer one does. No more warranty liability for them. They are the only large manufacture that wont warranty the second owner during the original warranty period. CGC has a reason for that. No one posting has any personal agenda as we all have games only a few months old. I got lucky on GBLE but unlucky here. QC is not there. I want my game to look the way it should and the warranty to be the way it should. I am a pinball customer and I buy new games and share experiences with no agenda. This is a Buyer Alert!

Quoted from Lermods:

If you've bought 18 nib games and paid an additional 3.5% on each one, that's quite a bit of insurance to take out. If you figure an average nib is $6k, you've paid almost $4k in cc fees, yet never had to make a claim.
I've bought many nib games too, never had an issue I could not work out. I do feel for those with bad afm playfields, however, and hope it gets resolve amicably. My afm is so nice I was eyeing an mbr, but may hold off now.

Quoted from Mike_J:

I now sit with 38 games (All Stern NIB and HUO) in immaculate condition and never feel remorse over the 4K.
My peace of mind was well worth it. I realize that others may not feel the same and respect that.

Quoted from voltron88x:

So perhaps ignorance is bliss, cause I thought my AFMr LE was perfect...until I read through all these threads and now I'm wondering did I miss something??
Relatively new to pins (longtime vid collector) and the only thing I could tell possibly "wrong" with my machine is the shooter lane ramp thing (which I'm ok to fix myself based on the instructions CGC provided). I've already updated to the 2.0 chip provided as well (no issues prior). Otherwise I've had a blast with it, but perhaps I'm ignorant of other issues, idk.
This all said, is there a comprehensive checklist compiled somewhere so I can go through the rest of my machine to confirm? Thanks!

Quoted from Mike_J:

True, but I am guessing most of the folks stuck in the boat with CGC would gladly pay the 3.5% now.

Quoted from paynemic:

I’ll chime in. I’ve had a few issues with my LE and Doug has resolved them to my satisfaction. Somebody put a vote on this thread (owners only): “are you satisfied with your purchase overall?”
I’d vote yes so far.

Quoted from jmagla:

Yes, I'm very happy too, and I imagine that the vast majority are very happy. But the question to ask is how many of us very happy chappies would be very happy if we encountered some of the colour/playfield issues that a small minority have?

Quoted from abagwell:

>.>

Quoted from extendo:

LTG
I see a technical question posted on here and I wait with anticipation with a answer from you. Thanks for taking the time and helping us novices, it's people like you that make me enjoy pins even more

Quoted from snaroff:

Bingo. If CGC disclosed that 5% of a PF "run" had the color issue and they were in the process of resolving these issues, case closed. Everyone happy. Shit happens.
Refusing to acknowledge PF issues clearly documented & identified by EXPERIENCED pinball collectors is unacceptable. Inexperienced pinball owners usually don't know what to look for.
snaroff

Quoted from Crispin:

Someone in the thread said the ribbed can eventually progress to splitting.

Quoted from PtownPin:

My question is where are the distributors in this discussion? Are they washing their hands? they should be front and center on this issue.

Quoted from PtownPin:

I couldn't agree more ..... although in my experience with American Express is if you have pics, and provide proof of damage then they will back you, and not back down to the distributor. My question is where are the distributors in this discussion? Are they washing their hands? they should be front and center on this issue.

Quoted from neverahighscore:

I think that is a great idea. If you're close to dealership, get game shipped to them and then have it setup to give it a full inspection before taking it home. I will do this for MBr.

Quoted from snaroff:

Bingo. If CGC disclosed that 5% of a PF "run" had the color issue and they were in the process of resolving these issues, case closed. Everyone happy. Shit happens.
Refusing to acknowledge PF issues clearly documented & identified by EXPERIENCED pinball collectors is unacceptable. Inexperienced pinball owners usually don't know what to look for.
snaroff

Quoted from Onwallst:

Glad to hear. Interesting no one is posting that they have had zero issues. I have more new in the box games with zero adjustments and problems than I have had games with issues. Playing perfect right out of the box is high quality control.

Quoted from bitpatrol:

I would like to open a ticket myself using that picture, and confirm that this is the level of quality I risk getting with a MMr or MBr.

Quoted from snaroff:

False. You can't assume the CC is going to honor your pushback on such a large purchase. Pinball machines aren't ovens and I'm pretty sure that unless your case was crystal clear, the distributor and company would fight the CC company pretty hard. For example, let's say that you had some clear coat chipping...are you really confident that the return process would be straightforward? I'm not.
In any event, you clearly don't mind spending the extra money for piece of mind. That's cool. My point is CC companies don't always "roll over" easily if the vendor doesn't acknowledge the problem! Since you've never returned a pinball machine, you don't have proof that your 3.5% is money well spent.
snaroff

Quoted from Mike_J:

I have assumed nothing and never participate in a transaction of over a few hundred dollars based upon assumptions.
I stated previously that I had already spoken with Amex and that they confirmed I would be covered in the event of a chipping playfield, split cabinet or even faulty artwork. I provided my Amex representative the name of the manufacturer, the product name (Attack from Mars Remake) and the name of an authorized dealer who sells the product. The representative told me that I would most likely be required to provide detailed photos in the event of an issue. I confirmed this process each time I purchased a NIB Stern machines as well.
Of course, the distributor will respond to the chargeback, but I will guarantee you that a response to Amex mentioning "artistic character" won't cut it.
I really hope all of this gets worked out for the existing customers and for CGC in the long run.

Quoted from whthrs166:

That doesn't sound very honest. You could use the picture to argue a point, not open a ticket because it is not an issue with your game.

Quoted from pinballinreno:

How they respond to individual cases, on an individual basis, is not what the majority can expect at all

Quoted from whthrs166:

That doesn't sound very honest. You could use the picture to argue a point, not open a ticket because it is not an issue with your game.

Quoted from gliebig:

^Those are some really good comparisons.

Quoted from snaroff:

Really? Comparing a pinball machine with a Seadoo? and baseball bat? Please...probably the worst comparisons I've ever heard.
For good or bad, MANY pinball owners consider their games "kinetic, playable art". If the PF art weren't considered important, there would be 0 reason to apply clearcoat. The clear is applied to protect the paint/art...hello! Cabinet art is also carefully scrutinized...as it should be. Took years for companies to figure out how to avoid messing up decals with ink that doesn't fade and leg brackets that avoid tearing up the decals. Please.
snaroff

Quoted from snaroff:

Really? Comparing a pinball machine with a Seadoo? and baseball bat? Please...probably the worst comparisons I've ever heard.
For good or bad, MANY pinball owners consider their games "kinetic, playable art". If the PF art weren't considered important, there would be 0 reason to apply clearcoat. The clear is applied to protect the paint/art...hello! Cabinet art is also carefully scrutinized...as it should be. Took years for companies to figure out how to avoid messing up decals with ink that doesn't fade and leg brackets that avoid tearing up the decals. Please.
snaroff

Quoted from Nexyss:

LTG sees both this thread, and their service tickets, and he has also answered a couple of tech questions in this thread since you posted this. It is not a good sign that their tech support guy ignores this completely as if he doesn't see it.

Quoted from PinLen83:

It's to test their reaction.

Quoted from pinballinreno:

Im reading this thread and seeing that a few people have some cosmetic issues on their games.
They are very vocal and are gaining sympathy from pinsiders in general.
I dont think that the cosmetic issues I have read, affect gameplay at all.
From a players perspective, only issues that affect gameplay are valid. It is a game after all.
Color variations on playfields are as old as pinball itself and can be sorted out in time if need be.
Chipping of clearcoat is to be expected and can be controlled fairly easily by the end user if they want.
Apply full sheet mylar or a makrolon full protector if you want. Its the end users choice as much as whether you wax your car or not.
example: My $12K Seedoo has scratches all over it from only 5 uses. My $200 baseball bat has scratches after only one game etc.
This does not mean that CGC is making an inferior product at all.
Its simpy pinball.
Anything that affects gameplay they immediately respond to, as they should.
Damning a game manufacturer for a relatively small percentage of defects is unfair and misleading.
How they respond to individual cases, on an individual basis, is not what the majority can expect at all.
All pinball machines have had quirks and poorly engineered parts that had to be remade or re-envisioned down the road.
The aftermarket is filled with these solutions.
JMHO... please go back to beating up CGC for no reason now