(Topic ID: 192072)

Attack From Mars Remake (AFMr) Owners Club

By Pin_Guy

4 years ago


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#3101 3 years ago
Quoted from Onwallst:

Thank you yours is flawless. Will contact them early next week. Probably call my dealer first. That has been my only concern with the AFMr remakes and looks like not all have the issue. Swapping playfeilds though is not fun. What have others done on the chipping issues that were posted previously? Did they send you a populated playfeild or just get a new one and make you sign a non disclosure agreement to stop talking about it. Seems like crickets lately from many on the chipping issues. Don’t want to swap and new one do the exact same thing though. I have been waiting for full Jury verdict on remakes and still have original too. One will go eventually.

I have chipping on every edge. SOL, spaceship hole, drain, and lock hole. It happened much faster than chipping on MMR, and I've actually had to shut the game down until I get Cliffys.

The problem I see is that a sizeable number of owners (as you'll find right here in this thread) just accept it and criticize anyone that thinks this problem is unacceptable.

If everyone banded together and demanded a resolution, we'd possibly get something from CGC, and likely they'd rethink things before releasing game #3.

I love my AFMR, and have had a good experience with CGC support, but the chipping on my game, and the countless pics I've seen on the site have left me wondering if I'd rather own original games over remakes.

I had a lot of problems with Dialed In, and Jack from JJP moved mountains to get things right for me.

#3102 3 years ago

I know they aren't needed but they look great pinbits sold out!

Neil.

#3103 3 years ago

Thay will make more,or call Pam she will get you a set asap.

#3104 3 years ago

Pic 2.0 installed, definitely a noticeable change....orbits seem to be hitting cleaner now, wonder if the weird flipper power was causing those orbit rejects too. Still going to be playing around with the flipper strength some though, I disagree on the -4....flippers seem too weak, I moved it to -3 and it felt better, going to play at that for a while and see how things go. Flips definitely feel "smoother" now if that makes any sense compared to before. I'm still dealing with CGC on my left flipper issue though, they've had me adjust the left lane multiple times but it doesn't fix anything, slow rolling balls still hop over halfway down the left flipper in midair...making shots really difficult from that side. I've sent them video and pictures showing the hop and showing that my left flipper is very clearly mounted too high compared to my right flipper. Is anyone else having this issue? I'm getting the feeling that CGC isn't wanting to address the fact that my left flipper mount was drilled in wrong.flip 2_4 (resized).jpg

#3105 3 years ago

It's probably your left guide. See if you can loosen it up and move it a bit to guide the ball over the flipper.

#3106 3 years ago
Quoted from Onwallst:

I disagree as I was told all Playfeilds are the same in all. Who knows for sure.

I was told this when I was complaining about a chip in my cabinet. Maybe they were just blowing smoke. Who knows.

#3107 3 years ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

It's probably your left guide. See if you can loosen it up and move it a bit to guide the ball over the flipper.

As I said, according to CGC's instructions I've loosened and shoved it as far as possible up and to the right to try and get it "above" the flipper. If I leave the left ball guide very loose I can force it high enough to make the ball roll normal but once I tighten it it goes back to bring too low so that the bounce starts occurring again. Also regardless of that, that image clearly shows that those flippers are not mounted anywhere near the same spot in the green circles.

#3108 3 years ago
Quoted from abagwell:

As I said, according to CGC's instructions I've loosened and shoved it as far as possible up and to the right to try and get it "above" the flipper. If I leave the left ball guide very loose I can force it high enough to make the ball roll normal but once I tighten it it goes

OK what about the flipper shaft bushing? Can it be moved or remounted so the flipper will move a bit? Beyond that you will have to take some measurements
to see where that hole is. I cant believe the factory would drill that hole wrong.

#3109 3 years ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

OK what about the flipper shaft bushing? Can it be moved or remounted so the flipper will move a bit? Beyond that you will have to take some measurements
to see where that hole is. I cant believe the factory would drill that hole wrong.

Newbie to working on machines so I'm not sure how to check the bushing, I've adjusted the "droop" of the flippers by loosening the screw underneath the pf, could you explain how to mess with the bushing?

#3110 3 years ago
Quoted from abagwell:

Newbie to working on machines so I'm not sure how to check the bushing, I've adjusted the "droop" of the flippers by loosening the screw underneath the pf, could you explain how to mess with the bushing?

Here’s how you would fix this if you had to do it yourself.

Let’s assume that the holes through the playfield are perfect since they are cut by computer. That plastic bushing that protrudes through the playfield has some very slight space around it. It’s possible that it’s just a millimeter or 2 off with respect to the ball guides.

You can take 6 of the 8 flipper mounting screws off leaving the opposite corners in place and then loosen the 2 remaining screws just a snug and see if you can shift the flipper into a place where the hop is gone. Once you find it, mark where the screw holes now need to be, fill, and carefully redrill pilot holes.

Remember these things are built by hand!

Marc

#3111 3 years ago
Quoted from abagwell:

Newbie to working on machines so I'm not sure how to check the bushing, I've adjusted the "droop" of the flippers by loosening the screw underneath the pf, could you explain how to mess with the bushing?

You’re also not that far from CGC. If you can’t get this sorted, maybe it’s worth seeing if they’ll help service the machine for you if you brought it over. Just thinking out loud...

#3112 3 years ago
Quoted from pintechev:

You’re also not that far from CGC. If you can’t get this sorted, maybe it’s worth seeing if they’ll help service the machine for you if you brought it over. Just thinking out loud...

Kind of along the same lines, if your distributor is local, just get in touch with them and see what they can do for you.

#3113 3 years ago

Alright thanks for the input guys, I'm sure that action is old hat to you guys but the details spook me at my level of expertise haha. I'll see what CGC says about this and go from there, my distributor is 15 miles from my house so I'll look into that too if the CGC thing leads nowhere useful.

#3114 3 years ago
Quoted from Damien:

I have chipping on every edge. SOL, spaceship hole, drain, and lock hole. It happened much faster than chipping on MMR, and I've actually had to shut the game down until I get Cliffys.
The problem I see is that a sizeable number of owners (as you'll find right here in this thread) just accept it and criticize anyone that thinks this problem is unacceptable.
If everyone banded together and demanded a resolution, we'd possibly get something from CGC, and likely they'd rethink things before releasing game #3.
I love my AFMR, and have had a good experience with CGC support, but the chipping on my game, and the countless pics I've seen on the site have left me wondering if I'd rather own original games over remakes.
I had a lot of problems with Dialed In, and Jack from JJP moved mountains to get things right for me.

I am learning the same. If you chat on a problem or concern people send you unkind comments. They think it is like saying their kid is ugly which is silly. This is discussing an issue. Hiding and ignoring won’t solve or identify anything. Silencing people has never ever worked over time in the history of the world.

#3115 3 years ago
Quoted from Onwallst:

Silencing people has never ever worked over time in the history of the world.

Well, almost never. Mt. Vesuvius did it famously well.

#3116 3 years ago
Quoted from Onwallst:

I am learning the same. If you chat on a problem or concern people send you unkind comments. They think it is like saying their kid is ugly which is silly. This is discussing an issue. Hiding and ignoring won’t solve or identify anything. Silencing people has never ever worked over time in the history of the world.

I agree that silencing doesn’t work. What I have found works much better is 1 communication as it helps build empathy and understanding. I’ve always found that building relationships is more efficient.

#3117 3 years ago
Quoted from abagwell:

Newbie to working on machines so I'm not sure how to check the bushing, I've adjusted the "droop" of the flippers by loosening the screw underneath the pf, could you explain how to mess with the bushing?

Everyone has to start someplace ...

Here is everything you ever wanted to know about your flippers...and a lot more.
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-upgradingrebuilding-flippers

#3118 3 years ago
Quoted from Onwallst:

am learning the same. If you chat on a problem or concern people send you unkind comments. They think it is like saying their kid is ugly which is silly. This is discussing an issue. Hiding and ignoring won’t solve or identify anything. Silencing people has never ever worked over time in the history of the world.

Well we don’t scare easily here so they can PM whatever and we will expose it.

#3119 3 years ago
Quoted from Onwallst:

I am learning the same. If you chat on a problem or concern people send you unkind comments. They think it is like saying their kid is ugly which is silly. This is discussing an issue. Hiding and ignoring won’t solve or identify anything. Silencing people has never ever worked over time in the history of the world.

I think what baffles me is that even Stern decided to replace pfs on Ghostbusters due to ghosting, but on a playfield where ever edge is chipping away, so of us just turn a blind eye.

It makes absolutely no sense to me. I love every detail on my remakes except the chipping. If CGC got this under control, it would practically be a perfect machine.

But having people that condone poor quality control makes it tougher to force improvements or action.

#3120 3 years ago

Pic received from automated today

IMG_5345 (resized).JPG

#3121 3 years ago
Quoted from Damien:

I think what baffles me is that even Stern decided to replace pfs on Ghostbusters due to ghosting, but on a playfield where ever edge is chipping away, so of us just turn a blind eye.
It makes absolutely no sense to me. I love every detail on my remakes except the chipping. If CGC got this under control, it would practically be a perfect machine.
But having people that condone poor quality control makes it tougher to force improvements or action.

I do not like chipping either however the market has forced playfield manufacturers to use extra coats of clear on their playfields. This makes chipping a lot worse on newer machines than older ones. My solution is Cliffys in all the areas of concern before you plunge a ball. No issues then. You cannot blame the manufacturer for chipping.

#3122 3 years ago
Quoted from pinballaddicted:

I do not like chipping either however the market has forced playfield manufacturers to use extra coats of clear on their playfields. This makes chipping a lot worse on newer machines than older ones. My solution is Cliffys in all the areas of concern before you plunge a ball. No issues then. You cannot blame the manufacturer for chipping.

How is the manufacturer not responsible?

#3123 3 years ago
Quoted from pinballaddicted:

I do not like chipping either however the market has forced playfield manufacturers to use extra coats of clear on their playfields. This makes chipping a lot worse on newer machines than older ones. My solution is Cliffys in all the areas of concern before you plunge a ball. No issues then. You cannot blame the manufacturer for chipping.

Is it even possible to clearcoat a playfield in a way that chipping will not happen around holes? I can see using a harder wood for the playfield making a big difference for dimpling... but at one point, does it not just become a polymer/plastic playfield if you have so many coats of a clearcoat mix which can handle chipping?

#3124 3 years ago
Quoted from Damien:

How is the manufacturer not responsible?

How is the manufacturer responsible? If you drive your car on a dirt road and chip your new paint is that the fault of the car maker? Chipping is not new and is here to stay. Plenty of different protection around, everything from Cliffys to PU shooter lane protectors. I cannot stand chipping either so we fit Cliffys. Chipping is one thing you can control.

#3125 3 years ago
Quoted from bitpatrol:

Is it even possible to clearcoat a playfield in a way that chipping will not happen around holes? I can see using a harder wood for the playfield making a big difference for dimpling... but at one point, does it not just become a polymer/plastic playfield if you have so many coats of a clearcoat mix which can handle chipping?

I am no playfield or clear expert, maybe some of the playfield guys can chime in and help out. What I do know is that since the playfield manufacturers have been putting on 3 coats of clear is when all the chipping started. We have been in the hobby a long time and never saw much chipping on any machine before GB. We have been fitting Cliffys on everything since then. AFMr was no exception. A full set of Cliffys went on before we plunged a ball.

#3126 3 years ago
Quoted from pinballaddicted:

I am no playfield or clear expert, maybe some of the playfield guys can chime in and help out. What I do know is that since the playfield manufacturers have been putting on 3 coats of clear is when all the chipping started. We have been in the hobby a long time and never saw much chipping on any machine before GB. We have been fitting Cliffys on everything since then. AFMr was no exception. A full set of Cliffys went on before we plunged a ball.

Maybe the chemicals the used years ago are not longer 'legal' to use or not considered environmentally friendly... seems to me making something very durable may involve toxic materials of some type, but as you say, maybe some experts can chime-in.

#3127 3 years ago
Quoted from bitpatrol:

Maybe the chemicals the used years ago are not longer 'legal' to use or not considered environmentally friendly... seems to me making something very durable may involve toxic materials of some type, but as you say, maybe some experts can chime-in.

Someone that does clear for a living did chime in on one of these threads maybe 2-3 months ago. His opinion was that the surfaces were not being prepped properly before the clear was laid down, making the adhesion of the clear tentative at best. He said even with the newer clear he doesn't have chipping issues on work he does.

#3128 3 years ago
Quoted from Damien:

I think what baffles me is that even Stern decided to replace pfs on Ghostbusters due to ghosting, but on a playfield where ever edge is chipping away, so of us just turn a blind eye.
It makes absolutely no sense to me. I love every detail on my remakes except the chipping. If CGC got this under control, it would practically be a perfect machine.
But having people that condone poor quality control makes it tougher to force improvements or action.

Look at this I thought interesting as answers question on dimpling and other questions.

http://www.hsapinball.com/HSA_PINBALL/hsa69afmcompare.html#0

#3129 3 years ago

I’m not getting chipping but plan to put cliffies in as chipping is inevitable.

#3130 3 years ago
Quoted from pinballaddicted:

How is the manufacturer responsible? If you drive your car on a dirt road and chip your new paint is that the fault of the car maker? Chipping is not new and is here to stay. Plenty of different protection around, everything from Cliffys to PU shooter lane protectors. I cannot stand chipping either so we fit Cliffys. Chipping is one thing you can control.

Major difference here. If every model they made eventually had paint peeling off, people would be up in arms!

I spoke with Ron Kruzman who knows a thing or two about clear coating, and he was telling me that the process they're using now isn't going to stand the test of time, and we're seeing that with the chipping.

He actually has had people send the remake pfs to him to re-clear as CGC is not putting out a lasting product here.

His process uses 7-10 layers of clear I believe, and they all have curing times which are often weeks.

So go ahead and put Cliffys on every exposed edge of your game, but you're just feeding the problem, not helping it.

#3131 3 years ago
Quoted from Damien:

Major difference here. If every model they made eventually had paint peeling off, people would be up in arms!
I spoke with Ron Kruzman who knows a thing or two about clear coating, and he was telling me that the process they're using now isn't going to stand the test of time, and we're seeing that with the chipping.
He actually has had people send the remake pfs to him to re-clear as CGC is not putting out a lasting product here.
His process uses 7-10 layers of clear I believe, and they all have curing times which are often weeks.
So go ahead and put Cliffys on every exposed edge of your game, but you're just feeding the problem, not helping it.

Well Said Damien! There is an issue here. Especially if the chipping, planking, sand scratches are not consistant with the games that have been delivered.

#3132 3 years ago

Putting cliffys on isn't feeding the problem. If you didn't put cliffys on a original afm playfield, guess what happens. One of my original afms was restored by a top restorer. 8 coats of clear, long drying times. He told me to install cliffys because sooner or later it will get damaged at the usual areas. You or the manufacturer can't stop this type of damage. Look at monster bash and other games. My BSD was restored by HEP. I had wear starting at the bat hole after 100 plays. I needed to put a cliffy there. It happens. It's pinball. Putting cliffys helps to eliminate the damaged that can happen.

#3133 3 years ago
Quoted from Damien:

Major difference here. If every model they made eventually had paint peeling off, people would be up in arms!
I spoke with Ron Kruzman who knows a thing or two about clear coating, and he was telling me that the process they're using now isn't going to stand the test of time, and we're seeing that with the chipping.
He actually has had people send the remake pfs to him to re-clear as CGC is not putting out a lasting product here.
His process uses 7-10 layers of clear I believe, and they all have curing times which are often weeks.
So go ahead and put Cliffys on every exposed edge of your game, but you're just feeding the problem, not helping it.

Ron is a collector quality clear coat guy. He is the most extreme example of perfection that you can get. No production game should be expected to hold the standard. And if it did, it would be much more expensive.

I am sorry; you can not compare them. They aren’t comparable.

#3134 3 years ago
Quoted from pintechev:

Ron is a collector quality clear coat guy. He is the most extreme example of perfection that you can get. No production game should be expected to hold the standard. And if it did, it would be much more expensive.
I am sorry; you can not compare them. They aren’t comparable.

I'm not sure why it would be so much more expensive to use good, dry, solid wood, and a good quality clear coat that won't chip too easily, like Ron does.

#3135 3 years ago
Quoted from bitpatrol:

I'm not sure why it would be so much more expensive to use good, dry, solid wood, and a good quality clear coat that won't chip too easily, like Ron does.

Ron doesn’t use dry wood; he clear coats already produced playing surfaces. And he takes MONTHS. He’s amazing, but we are talking OCD here; I love my Ron coated CV and do not get me wrong, but the clear on my AFMr is really very nice.

#3136 3 years ago
Quoted from pintechev:

Ron doesn’t use dry wood; he clear coats already produced playing surfaces. And he takes MONTHS. He’s amazing, but we are talking OCD here; I love my Ron coated CV and do not get me wrong, but the clear on my AFMr is really very nice.

Do you mean he lets the clearcoats dry for weeks at a time, totalling months when combining each coat? I can see spraying the clearcoat takes a few minutes, but the drying/curing may take time. So the extra cost would be storage while they cure? What other costs or efforts go into making them as good as Ron's?

#3137 3 years ago
Quoted from bitpatrol:

Do you mean he lets the clearcoats dry for weeks at a time, totalling months when combining each coat? I can see spraying the clearcoat takes a few minutes, but the drying/curing may take time. So the extra cost would be storage while they cure? What other costs or efforts go into making them as good as Ron's?

Hand block sanding is another. Again, production clear vs restoration clear. The auto refinish guys have the same debate, etc.

#3138 3 years ago
Quoted from pintechev:

I am sorry; you can not compare them. They aren’t comparable.

No one is comparing. I'm simply pointing out the differences. Clearly Ron's process would create challenges and extra expenses in production, but it shows how much work goes into a long lasting clear coat.

I run a business where we custom create things for our customers. A long time ago, we decided to use a more expensive process and materials, and we've had few issues and many loyal and happy customers.

It's not impossible to do. They did it in the same factory 20 years ago!

Quoted from neverahighscore:

Putting cliffys on isn't feeding the problem. If you didn't put cliffys on a original afm playfield, guess what happens.

I'm not the first to make this point, so I'll repeat what many have said... All games will show signs of wear, however, if you look at an original 90s B/W games, you generally will not see this type of chipping. You will see clear wearing down, and wood being exposed at the high impact areas, but as a general rule, it take a longer time.

I have a TOM from 1995, and the drain hole looks better than my AFMR that was chipping away almost right out of the box. My TOM was routed, and has a lot of mileage on it, but it's holding up. And there are no Cliffys on it!

I agree with you though, putting Cliffys on your games is a brilliant way to guard against damage, and preserve your game, but not all customers will be aware of this, and putting out a game that is notoriously chipping after less than 100 plays is not acceptable.

And as final note... I'm not just bored and looking for an excuse to complain about something. I have both remakes, and I'm chomping at the bit for the third. But as customer, I believe it is our responsibility to hold manufacturers responsible to a certain level of quality. This pf issue needs to be addressed, and will only happen when the community comes together.

Have a great day

#3139 3 years ago
Quoted from pintechev:

Ron is a collector quality clear coat guy. He is the most extreme example of perfection that you can get. No production game should be expected to hold the standard. And if it did, it would be much more expensive.
I am sorry; you can not compare them. They aren’t comparable.

I've worked with both Ron Kruzman (Paragon) and Chris Hutchins (AFM) and they do wonderful work.

If folks want Ron/Chris level fit-and-finish for the price of the remake, they don't understand the economics of pinball manufacturing or restoration. My HEP AFM cost 12-13k back in 2010. Breakdown: $3,500 for base machine, $3,000 parts, $5,500 labor, $500 shipping. In today's money, would probably be closer to 16k (and doesn't include a fancy topper This is 2x the price of the remake...

Nevertheless, I think the recent PF chipping issues are disturbing (not unique to CGC). From my perspective, these issues are fixable without jumping to the conclusion that Kruzman/Hutchins are the solution.

snaroff

#3140 3 years ago
Quoted from neverahighscore:

If you didn't put cliffys on a original afm playfield, guess what happens

Yes to a point. I did not put a cliffy on my SOL 400 games in no chipping or damage. There is at least one operator that a has posted 2000 plays with no chipping. I installed a cliffy on the mother ship hole, but thats it. I have no chipping. What we have here is an issue with one or two games. There is some planking, some chipping, some sand scratches on different games. They just need to be looked into and handled by CGC.

#3141 3 years ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

Yes to a point. I did not put a cliffy on my SOL 400 games in no chipping or damage.

I have just the Mantis style that CGC put on. I have 1,347 plays and also have no chipping or damage

#3142 3 years ago
Quoted from Only_Pinball:

I have just the Mantis style that CGC put on. I have 1,347 plays and also have no chipping or damage

My point exactly. It is a problem that is game specific.

#3143 3 years ago
Quoted from whthrs166:

Yes to a point. I did not put a cliffy on my SOL 400 games in no chipping or damage. There is at least one operator that a has posted 2000 plays with no chipping. I installed a cliffy on the mother ship hole, but thats it. I have no chipping. What we have here is an issue with one or two games. There is some planking, some chipping, some sand scratches on different games. They just need to be looked into and handled by CGC.

what are the playfield numbers on the good ones?

#3144 3 years ago
Quoted from bitpatrol:

what are the playfield numbers on the good ones?

Huh?

#3145 3 years ago

If anyone posts pictures or issues with a playfield, maybe include the palyfield number so we can determine if the issues originate from a bad series of playfields.

#3146 3 years ago
Quoted from bitpatrol:

If anyone posts pictures or issues with a playfield, maybe include the palyfield number so we can determine if the issues originate from a bad series of playfields.

I have the exact same chipping on my MMR and AFMR. Add that to the list of people that have complained about chipping, and I don't think there is necessarily an order to this.

#3147 3 years ago

I have a October built Classic with playfield #307 of 1015 and am very happy to say i have no chipping or planking however i did get one with the skin toned instead of orange .Yes it wont affect game play but probally will take a hit on resale

C9889EF6-0EED-4D71-842E-B7EDA8556853 (resized).jpeg

E595A430-A670-4770-A30A-9B41A0F8F786 (resized).jpeg

#3148 3 years ago
Quoted from plowpusher:

...but probally will take a hit on resale

Nah, it's all about the shooter lane, you know!

#3149 3 years ago
Quoted from plowpusher:

I have a October built Classic with playfield #307 of 1015 and am very happy to say i have no chipping or planking however i did get one with the skin toned instead of orange .Yes it wont affect game play but probally will take a hit on resale

Where do we check for the skin tone color?

#3150 3 years ago
Quoted from bitpatrol:

Where do we check for the skin tone color?

I personally like to use my genitalia as the catalyst - but only after a fresh wax. Lay it between the flippers and if it's a close match (I'm caucasian) you probably have the dreaded flesh tone PF. If you've been eating cheetos before handling yourself, and then lay it down, and it matches - you have an accurate reproduction.

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