(Topic ID: 185543)

Are you in favor of the IFPA changes for 2018? POLL

By pinlink

6 years ago


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    Topic poll

    “Are you in favor of the IFPA changes for 2018 regarding the $1 entry fee?”

    • YES 217 votes
      50%
    • NO 213 votes
      50%

    (430 votes)

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    There are 513 posts in this topic. You are on page 6 of 11.
    #251 6 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    I already won over $200 this year playing pinball

    Hopefully not in Wisconsin

    #252 6 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    Hopefully not in Wisconsin

    IMG_1567 (resized).pngIMG_1567 (resized).png

    #253 6 years ago
    Quoted from Whysnow:

    I think it is a bummer that we wont be able to have IFPA points, but also think the state stuff is more important to most people.

    For the 50 people interested out of 500

    #254 6 years ago

    I probably have a bias here since I'm in the Seattle area, but as it stands, this means that Washington state, which holds roughly 20% of the nation's pinball tournaments would be contributing around 8k to the national tournament prize pool yet we still only get 1 state representative that could go to take it. Many states with very small player bases may be contributing only a couple hundred dollars, yet their state still gets the same representation as the states that put up a large chunk of that money. That imbalance seems a bit sketchy.

    Also, how would they plan on doing this in states like Wisconsin, where it's illegal to "gamble" on stuff like this? I know that the tournament itself is still unable to give money to the winners, but they are still contributing to a prize pool that they may get at the national tournament. Is that legally feasible?

    Also, as mentioned a few different times in this thread, it would be very simple to add a yearly membership flag to a player's profile which may allow for a one time membership fee rather than consistently charging throughout the year. There are many ways to do this that would give much better than an "Amazing" 40% approval rating...

    #255 6 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    For the 50 people interested out of 500

    sorry, I was not clear.

    I think 50 out of 500 have a viable shot at making top 16 for SCS and actively play for that. I think around 200 out of 500 enjoy the WPPR system, but mainly the ranking for annual SCS purposes. I think they enjoy having a measuring stick for how they compare to other people in the state at any given time. Some of these may also be playing for a shot at SCS, but they are more passively doing so.

    The rest just play pinball and will be largely turned off at paying $1 into any event to support the prize pool for the top 16 in state and nationals. These are the people I think we loose in the sport and particularly at location play events in Madison and Milwaukee along with the 3 main leagues int he state.

    #256 6 years ago
    Quoted from Atreyu:

    as it stands, this means that Washington state, which holds roughly 20% of the nation's pinball tournaments would be contributing around 8k to the national tournament prize pool

    Sorry but that's just false.

    The numbers I've seen in WA don't reflect them funding the National prize pool with even close to $8k.

    #257 6 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    Sorry but that's just false.
    The numbers I've seen in WA don't reflect them funding the National prize pool with even close to $8k.

    I wish you would just post the total player count (events/players) for each state for 2016 to let us see exactly what they were then.

    It will give everyone a better picture of reality as it stands (we can all filter and guess what happens down the road, but those are the best data available currently).

    I do think this imbalance needs to be addressed. Makes no sense for more prolific states to add more to a prize pool than less involved ones. Actually dis-incentivizes more events and the range will be HUGE.

    #258 6 years ago

    Ok Josh,
    I created a bunch of duplicate accounts and voted for your cause to achieve 51% buy-in. Can I get a free pass on the $1 fee?

    pasted_image (resized).pngpasted_image (resized).png

    #259 6 years ago
    Quoted from Xerico:

    as a collective we will be able to cover the difference.

    This is cringeworthy to me. It sounds like someone saying "Okay, I'm going to opt out of being ranked for this tournament." and then the rest of the group pays for the person to be ranked in order to benefit their points scenario. To me, I don't want anyone "paying my way". You, and whoever else is involved in pooling these fees, would be completely disregarding my personal choice to take a stand against that part of the system, and completely invalidating my opinion, and that's kind of sh--ty, IMO. At that point, if my decision is not to participate in paying these fees, but other people are paying it regardless of my personal opinion, you're forcing me into making a choice to either turn a blind eye (which we all know I'm completely incapable of) or to simply just not participate at *all* unless it's an unranked event. It's not about the money. Frankly, for our specific scenario, everyone could save a dollar a week just by buying entry passes to Nickelrama. I've been doing that for a while now..

    I can pretty much guarantee that I would choose the second option in this scenario, and not only that, but I'll get my crap together and find the time to start running my own league again, but unranked, and we'll see how many of our local casuals show up that hardly EVER show up to ranked events. If I lose you, Ken, Kevin and Ricky, but then Rusty, Shelley, Kevin M., Laura, and Jennifer start showing up...that's a net win to me, because you guys already play in public and private events a ton. They don't. To get them back out and playing at more gatherings is worth more to me than my stupid IFPA ranking and compromising my own standards for other people to enhance theirs.. -_-

    #260 6 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    This is cringeworthy to me. It sounds like someone saying "Okay, I'm going to opt out of being ranked for this tournament." and then the rest of the group pays for the person to be ranked in order to benefit their points scenario. To me, I don't want anyone "paying my way". You, and whoever else is involved in pooling these fees, would be completely disregarding my personal choice to take a stand against that part of the system, and completely invalidating my opinion, and that's kind of sh--ty, IMO. At that point, if my decision is not to participate in paying these fees, but other people are paying it regardless of my personal opinion, you're forcing me into making a choice to either turn a blind eye (which we all know I'm completely incapable of) or to simply just not participate at *all* unless it's an unranked event. It's not about the money. Frankly, for our specific scenario, everyone could save a dollar a week just by buying entry passes to Nickelrama. I've been doing that for a while now..
    I can pretty much guarantee that I would choose the second option in this scenario, and not only that, but I'll get my crap together and find the time to start running my own league again, but unranked, and we'll see how many of our local casuals show up that hardly EVER show up to ranked events. If I lose you, Ken, Kevin and Ricky, but then Rusty, Shelley, Kevin M., Laura, and Jennifer start showing up...that's a net win to me, because you guys already play in public and private events a ton. They don't. To get them back out and playing at more gatherings is worth more to me than my stupid IFPA ranking and compromising my own standards for other people to enhance theirs.. -_-

    In the event that a player, such as yourself, wants to take a stand and not be included in the final standings submitted to IFPA, then of course I would simply not include you in the final standings sent to IFPA. Not a single dollar would be sent in on your behalf. And we would not have infringed on your right to take a stand. You would still be able to play, and even win the event.

    But when the standings were sent to IFPA, your participation in the event will not be logged and/or recognized by the IFPA, per your wishes.

    As for a second league, it does not have to be an "us or them" situation. If you decided to run unranked events, the chances are pretty high that Ken, Kevin, Rickie and I would still attend for the fun of competition. Just like we did before IFPA Points were a "thing" in our area.

    Now, would you still be opposed to supporting our local leagues if the IFPA $1/person cost was covered by sponsorship?
    Will you stop participating in TPF Tournament when a portion of your entry is used to cover the IFPA cost?

    Marcus

    #261 6 years ago
    Quoted from rotordave:

    I know I can't change the tracks on the Josh Train, but this is the way I would go.
    Set up IFPA as a charitable foundation. (I'm not 100% with USA laws but that'd seem the way to go)
    Make it $5 or $10 annual donation to be a member of IFPA. Clever computer guys like Brian Shepherd or Lucas from NYC could easily set up an auto mail out with a PayPal link. All automatic.
    The people who donate the bucks have their ranking points listed for the year. If you don't, your name is at the bottom of the list as "inactive"
    If 10,000 of the 40,000+ on the IFPA site donate $10, that's $100,000. Don't forget, this would attract money worldwide, not just in the USA/Canada Eh.
    As a charity, the IFPA can distribute the funds as it sees fit. Some to the world champs, some to SCS, some to Pinmasters, Woman's, whatever!
    Seems like a lot more simple and less labour intensive way of doing things....
    My philosophy in business, or whatever I do, is KISS ... keep it simple stupid. The easiest path is generally the way to go.
    rd

    The biggest problem with this entire situation is, someone (like RD above) suggests an idea that is much better/easier/preferred, but Josh's reaction is "na we're going to stick with my idea because I thought of it."

    #262 6 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    Hopefully not in Wisconsin

    Must have been a "Non" IFPA event or events outside the state right?

    All the 2017 IFPA sponsored events Hilton has played in have been in WI.

    -1
    #263 6 years ago
    Quoted from TomGWI:

    I don't like this idea.
    $200 to play in SCS! Are you crazy?
    $1 play VS $200. I will pay in my $28 bucks (2016 event total) VS $200
    And why shouldn't someone who is interested in playing in the SCS pay in?
    All the other tournaments are playing for the right to play in the SCS.
    Talk about not being fair.

    Case closed.

    #264 6 years ago
    Quoted from LesManley:

    Must have been a "Non" IFPA event or events right?
    All the 2017 IFPA sponsored events Hilton has played in have been in WI.

    The only question that remains is where to send the cops. They better not go off the deep end and go all 'civil forfeiture' and take all of Hilton's games too. The whole pinball thing in Wisconsin, so seedy... The headline will read, "Dark Underbelly of Secret Pinball Society Taken Down" with a picture of Hilton in cuffs and a black and white photo of someone smashing his games with a sledge hammer...

    #265 6 years ago
    Quoted from rotordave:

    I know I can't change the tracks on the Josh Train, but this is the way I would go.
    Set up IFPA as a charitable foundation. (I'm not 100% with USA laws but that'd seem the way to go)
    Make it $5 or $10 annual donation to be a member of IFPA. Clever computer guys like Brian Shepherd or Lucas from NYC could easily set up an auto mail out with a PayPal link. All automatic.
    The people who donate the bucks have their ranking points listed for the year. If you don't, your name is at the bottom of the list as "inactive"
    If 10,000 of the 40,000+ on the IFPA site donate $10, that's $100,000. Don't forget, this would attract money worldwide, not just in the USA/Canada Eh.
    As a charity, the IFPA can distribute the funds as it sees fit. Some to the world champs, some to SCS, some to Pinmasters, Woman's, whatever!
    Seems like a lot more simple and less labour intensive way of doing things....
    My philosophy in business, or whatever I do, is KISS ... keep it simple stupid. The easiest path is generally the way to go.
    rd

    ^^^THIS^^^ 1000 X over.

    IFPA is growing leaps and bounds and it's probably time to make it legit. This approach makes way more sense, reduces the burden on the TDs (esp. w/ regard to tax and other legal implications of collecting fees), and on Zach and whoever needs to keep track of the payments, etc. for each event.

    It also somewhat avoids the very real and very negative possibility that Zach or someone else high up in IFPA will win one of these state or national tournaments and directly benefit from this decision, which doesn't really pass the smell test for a lot of folks.

    #266 6 years ago
    Quoted from wizard_mode:

    Ok Josh,
    I created a bunch of duplicate accounts and voted for your cause to achieve 51% buy-in. Can I get a free pass on the $1 fee?

    Now THAT cracked me up big time

    -3
    #267 6 years ago
    Quoted from pinlink:

    The biggest problem with this entire situation is, someone (like RD above) suggests an idea that is much better/easier/preferred, but Josh's reaction is "na we're going to stick with my idea because I thought of it."

    LOL yes it's "much preferred". Seems to be 'more people like this idea than don't like this idea'? Seems the Pinside poll only really matters if it shows disapproval?

    If/when we do registered player accounts, I think Dave's idea is great. It will be a completely separate thing and we can use those funds for other things. Maybe we pay my volunteers? Maybe we donate all of it to charity?

    The problem with Dave's numbers are that they aren't reality. Out of our 50,000 players, only 4,000 of them have "registered" accounts (this meaning we have their email on file). Somehow thinking that more players will pay an annual fee to be on the website when they already aren't registering for free doesn't line up with me.

    So in theory I can agree with you (and Dave) that this idea is a good one, and that someday we may implement something like it . . . in addition to what we're talking about with the endorsement fee.

    #268 6 years ago

    i wonder what all 5 wyoming players think of this, being that our state isn't even recognized by the IFPA?

    #269 6 years ago

    Pinball costs around one dollar per game to play. Why are people freaking out over one dollar?

    #270 6 years ago
    Quoted from Xerico:

    Personally, as a TD, I'm going to find a way to pay the $1/person to keep my events "Pro". Luckily, I have a great group of players that will most likely pony up their $1. And for those that don't, I'm sure as a collective we will be able to cover the difference.

    Seems like an unnecessary complication to talk about individual $1 costs with your players. Just put the type of tournament together you want, at the price you want, and make all that back end invisible.

    #271 6 years ago
    Quoted from Xerico:

    As for a second league, it does not have to be an "us or them" situation. If you decided to run unranked events, the chances are pretty high that Ken, Kevin, Rickie and I would still attend for the fun of competition. Just like we did before IFPA Points were a "thing" in our area.

    Sorry, I wasn't really meaning to imply that you guys wouldn't attend out of spite. We all have time limitations! I just expect that most of our "regulars" given the option to use their time for one or the other if they don't have time for both, will choose the ranked event. I certainly would have the last 5 years.

    Quoted from Xerico:

    Now, would you still be opposed to supporting our local leagues if the IFPA $1/person cost was covered by sponsorship?
    Will you stop participating in TPF Tournament when a portion of your entry is used to cover the IFPA cost?

    Honestly? If we could get some kind of sponsorship for leagues, that would be amazing, just from a general appeal standpoint. I just don't want it to be Nickelrama, because man....Ray already does so much for us. That's why I try to alternate back and forth between using discounted passes and not. I kinda feel like I owe him the higher price of admission for putting together what he's done the last two years. Nickelrama's definitely gone from a place that I tolerated playing at to a place I really like going to play again. The fact he's put WOZ, Hobbit, Aerosmith, and BM66 in there in 6 months is ludicrous and wonderful! So no...if we had some other business sponsoring for league, that would be okay with me, I guess. I know I'm kind of treading a really really thin line saying that, but I honestly believe that getting more businesses involved with the competition aspect is something that could do things like push up prize pots and the "level" of competition. Imagine if we had a sponsorship big enough to rent out Nickelrama for a day for a major tourney with a fat prize pool? How awesome would that be?!

    I won't stop attending TPF tournaments in spite of the fee, as I stated earlier in the thread, even if TPF explicitly increases the price 1$ a player to cover it. I think supporting the best show I can get to more of a benefit than a once-per-year compromise of my personal choices would take away.

    #272 6 years ago
    Quoted from Ballsofsteel:

    i wonder what all 5 wyoming players think of this, being that our state isn't even recognized by the IFPA?

    You dont have any events. It would be easy to start having some. I tried to talk Bob into running events and leagues when he opened up Flippers but I dont think he cares. Someone local should do them there tho with his blessing.

    #273 6 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    So in theory I can agree with you (and Dave) that this idea is a good one, and that someday we may implement something like it . . . in addition to what we're talking about with the endorsement fee.

    completely missed the point of that huh?

    it wasnt in addition to it was instead of. Hell make the fee $20 a year im still ok with that but dont make me pay a fee everytime i want to play an event. we get random people in the arcade wanting to see how good they are by joining the tourney. if you tell them they have to pay for it i would think atleast half of them would not play. This is based on personal experience with asking people if they want to play and they say no thank you, then i explain its free and just for fun and they say ok im in.

    #274 6 years ago

    If people need to pay $5 to see their points they will register their IFPA account. This is not even an issue and is a weak argument.

    Paying directly through the IFPA by your player ID number is still way better than having the TD try to herd cats and try to keep track of who did and didn't pay for the month. Also we have to sit around and listen to the people that chose to pay bitch about the people that didn't and vice versa.

    #275 6 years ago
    Quoted from Jdawg4422:

    completely missed the point of that huh?

    Not at all, totally got the point.

    My point was that on my list of IFPA stuff for the future was BOTH of these items (endorsement fee for EVENTS, and premium account fee for PLAYERS).

    There are many places where the location is sponsoring this $1 per player. Many more communities are taking it out of the prize pool so the winners simply get paid 'less' for their winnings.

    In both of these examples no players are ever asked if they want to pay. They simply show up, pay whatever the 'normal' entry fee for the event is, and play.

    #276 6 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    The problem with Dave's numbers are that they aren't reality. Out of our 50,000 players, only 4,000 of them have "registered" accounts (this meaning we have their email on file). Somehow thinking that more players will pay an annual fee to be on the website when they already aren't registering for free doesn't line up with me

    4000 = 10% of registered players probably sounds about right. We have 300 IFPA players in NZ and I would say 50 of them are really committed so just over 10%.

    In saying that, 4000 x $10 per each = $40,000 which is still a bundle of cash.

    You may be surprised how many others sign up to pay the $10 when their points magically disappear ...

    rd

    #277 6 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    In Illinois . . . not being able to find 15 other players that want to give $200 to Zach

    While I appreciate it, you're giving me far too much credit here.....but I would be thrilled to donate $200 to Elwin

    #278 6 years ago
    Quoted from ifpapinball:

    In Illinois . . . not being able to find 15 other players that want to give $200 to Zach

    glad to see you agree it is a for-drawn conclusion that there are differences between players skill level and the 99% never stand a real chance against the top 1%.

    Sad to see that you are unwilling to pay a 1 time entry fee of $200 into the PRE$TIGIOUS end of year SCS event where you have no shot of winning, but still want everyone else in Il to do what you are not willing to do...

    I mean...I have to assume that Zac does not come to all the tournaments you play in during the year, so there is a reasonable chance in all your pay-in entry fee events that you have won at least $200 throughout the year, correct. Why not be willing to spend your own personal yearly winnings to enter the SCS? All seems to go against the entire straw man you have set up... Isnt your whole idea that TDs are just skimming from the top of the pot in order to pay the $1 for all the entrants in any event. Why not just pay them out and expect that they would be happy also making the same choice to spend that money on SCS?

    (p.s. I am sorry he never lets you win; maybe someday he will be sick for a national event and you have a shot )

    #279 6 years ago

    also beginning to think I would rather spend my $1s to start up a fund to get Jorian, Daniele, Raymond and Cayle to move to IL

    #280 6 years ago
    Quoted from EmLover1970:

    The only question that remains is where to send the cops. They better not go off the deep end and go all 'civil forfeiture' and take all of Hilton's games too. The whole pinball thing in Wisconsin, so seedy... The headline will read, "Dark Underbelly of Secret Pinball Society Taken Down" with a picture of Hilton in cuffs and a black and white photo of someone smashing his games with a sledge hammer...

    And that is exactly why Hilton does not want to go down this road and 100% respect him for that.

    #281 6 years ago
    Quoted from InfiniteLives:

    You dont have any events. It would be easy to start having some. I tried to talk Bob into running events and leagues when he opened up Flippers but I dont think he cares. Someone local should do them there tho with his blessing.

    yeah, i know. why do you think we come down to play in CO with you guys? flippers has a great selection, that place would probably be the only suitable candidate in the state. Seems it gets mostly kids and families that want to play the arcade games though.

    #282 6 years ago
    Quoted from Ballsofsteel:

    yeah, i know. why do you think we come down to play in CO with you guys? flippers has a great selection, that place would probably be the only suitable candidate in the state. Seems it gets mostly kids and families that want to play the arcade games though.

    I know if they held events at Flippers a few of us in Fort Collins would support the effort for sure. Trick is getting Bob involved. He doesn't even respond to me anymore when I tell him what issues his route games up here have so I don't even bother trying to help anymore lol. He has a Congo on location that hasnt had a ball in the lower playfield for over a year haha

    #283 6 years ago
    Quoted from InfiniteLives:

    I know if they held events at Flippers a few of us in Fort Collins would support the effort for sure. Trick is getting Bob involved. He doesn't even respond to me anymore when I tell him what issues his route games up here have so I don't even bother trying to help anymore lol. He has a Congo on location that hasnt had a ball in the lower playfield for over a year haha

    Yeah, too bad. KC and i were talking about it a few weeks ago in PBJ. It will probably never happen, thank god for DNO, Kim, and Kevin!

    #284 6 years ago

    just voted . poll is dead accurate %51 in favor

    -3
    #285 6 years ago

    I propose we allocate a portion of the pot to give participation trophies to all the snowflakes in Wisconsin.

    #286 6 years ago
    Quoted from Spraynard:

    I propose we allocate a portion of the pot to give participation trophies to all the snowflakes in Wisconsin.

    under the law you can't give out trophies

    #287 6 years ago
    Quoted from Spraynard:

    I propose we allocate a portion of the pot to give participation trophies to all the snowflakes in Wisconsin.

    I will donate $5 to your next 5 events to help with your mad cow disease.

    #288 6 years ago

    How are trophies illegal?

    The PGA hands out trophies little league hands out trophies i'm sure there are plenty of bowling trophies there too.

    I've read the WI gambling statutes and don't understand why pinball tournaments aren't legal. Is there a separate illegal trophy law I'm missing?

    #289 6 years ago
    Quoted from Black_Knight:

    How are trophies illegal?
    The PGA hands out trophies little league hands out trophies i'm sure there are plenty of bowling trophies there too.
    I've read the WI gambling statutes and don't understand why pinball tournaments aren't legal. Is there a separate illegal trophy law I'm missing?

    Yes, you are missing the fact that NOTHING can be awarded. Legally, that is.

    #290 6 years ago

    I haven't read the laws, but I was awarded trophies and medals throughout my childhood (in Wisconsin) for soccer and other sports. Including stuff that wasn't under the radar, like the state championships.

    #291 6 years ago
    Quoted from ryanwanger:

    I haven't read the laws, but I was awarded trophies and medals throughout my childhood for soccer and other sports. Including stuff that wasn't under the radar, like the state championships.

    When you least expect it, the law will get you for those trophies. Look out for the door being busted down or a process server tapping you with an envelope sans love letter.

    Probably an exemption for athletic events (Pinball is not an athletic event and pinball players are not athletes, no matter what anybody says) or those under 21 years of age.

    Just kidding about being served or the door being busted down by the way....

    #292 6 years ago
    Quoted from Spraynard:

    I propose we allocate a portion of the pot to give participation trophies to all the snowflakes in Wisconsin.

    Classy, Phil.

    #293 6 years ago
    Quoted from MrBally:

    Yes, you are missing the fact that NOTHING can be awarded. Legally, that is.

    Still waiting for someone to point to a statute for either the pinball tournament legality it to trophies.

    I'm not disputing that there was a run in with someone in the past but it sounds more like a political or local social issue than a real legal one.

    If there is another thread that talks about it please let me know.

    #294 6 years ago

    Most "Pro" events now are currently just amateur style events (that deserve the pro term though). I don't see any point in doing an amateur ranking system when the whole point is growing pinball as a sport and to make all events look like Pro level competition overall.

    #295 6 years ago

    The only thing I think i've learned in this thread is what a F'ed up state Wisconsin is!

    #296 6 years ago
    Quoted from smassa:

    The only thing I think i've learned in this thread is what a F'ed up state Wisconsin is!

    It's really not as bad as the City of Madison...that's where the state gets it's bad rap.

    BONUS FACT: bums run rampart there. Everyone's too nice to say anything to them...out of control.

    #297 6 years ago
    Quoted from Black_Knight:

    Still waiting for someone to point to a statute for either the pinball tournament legality it to trophies.

    I agree. This whole discussion interested me so I dug around and from what I can see in the statutes there are very clear exceptions for prizes and award purses to competitions of skill which would make trophies and prizes in local tournaments perfectly legal: https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/945/01

    I do not know about how this would ultimately be applied to the whole IFPA change, but I don't see why prizes or a trophy in a local tourney would not be legal.

    #298 6 years ago

    Well looks like your non-belief theory checks out. Thanks for the data mining on this one!

    IMG_4979 (resized).PNGIMG_4979 (resized).PNG

    #299 6 years ago
    Quoted from daley:

    I agree. This whole discussion interested me so I dug around and from what I can see in the statutes there are very clear exceptions for prizes and award purses to competitions of skill which would make trophies and prizes in local tournaments perfectly legal: https://docs.legis.wisconsin.gov/statutes/statutes/945/01
    I do not know about how this would ultimately be applied to the whole IFPA change, but I don't see why prizes or a trophy in a local tourney would not be legal

    daley,

    How are you going to get 6 pages of forum comments and personal attacks on this matter if you just calmly and logically discuss and resolve everything.

    #300 6 years ago

    Pinball Conspiracy Theory #43:
    How many Yes votes were bought to push the Yes % total to over 50%?
    What mods were promised as tokens of appreciation for Pinsiders to vote Yes, so they can mod up their pinball machines?

    There are 513 posts in this topic. You are on page 6 of 11.

    Reply

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