Wichita, KS
Quoted from PopBumperPete:they totally shhut down their australian manufacturing arm last year
I first learned about Holden when I saw some pics of this car and had to see what it was.
(Topic ID: 230350)
This topic is closed.
Its pure economics, you can’t give big bonuses to upper management without making sure you can pay for them by cutting a worker or two loose right before Christmas... thats the American way. 
My brother, a skilled tool maker, has been layed off before xmas more times than he can count on two hands over a 40 year career. Small tool shops tend to have a slow period during the holidays and afterwards. Many manufacturers shut down during the holidays so supporting tool shop work falls off, and so naturally pink in the color of the season.
Quoted from Methos:Don't worry, GM cars will still be made in China.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-24/gm-is-building-cheap-cars-for-china-s-masses
"Growth in China is vital for GM because the company has retrenched in or left several other large markets. In 2017 it ended almost 90 years in Europe, having lost close to $20 billion there since 1999; last year it also left India, where its profit margins were low; it fled Russia in 2015 in response to political and economic instability.
It’s a far different story on the mainland. GM and its partners sold 4 million vehicles in China in 2017, about 1 million more than the automaker sold in the U.S. General Motors China Inc. earned about $2 billion last year, about 18 percent of its parent’s global profit. Annual auto sales in China are expected to increase by 5 million vehicles in five years, to more than 34 million, says researcher LMC Automotive Ltd."
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It is sobering when you think about it. After WW II, the 20th Century was the century for the U.S.A. We built airports where there were none. We built the Interstate Highway system. We encased our cities inside concrete highways. We dammed all of our waterways and made lakes. We loaded up on NASCAR racetracks. There is not much left to build.
For the 21st Century, the U.S.A will be in maintenance mode. Everybody likes to build. Nobody likes to maintain.
For the 21st Century, China will be building out its highway system. It will be building it airports. With Three Gorges Dam, China has gobs of cheap hydro electricity to tap. China will be the place to be.
Quoted from Methos:Don't worry, GM cars will still be made in China.
Food for thought:
Auto dealerships in U.S.A. like to fly the Stars and Stripes over the tops of their dealerships.
Ford dealer flies the American flag.
Chevy dealer flies the American flag.
Chrysler dealer flies the American flag. ( Chrysler is now owned by that German company ).
Honda dealer flies American flag.
Toyota dealer flies American flag.
and on and on.
So, it stands to reason that the Chinese auto dealers will be flying the China flag over their dealerships. Don't it? Doesn't it? Does it?
It does not take much of a stretch to imagine that one could see a Chinese dealer's lot full of Buicks getting some shade from under a Communist Chinese flag in China.
Quoted from PanzerFreak:Terrible news and most of it is due to the shift from cars to SUV's. it will be made in Mexico.
A good number of people that don't even work for GM will be affected by the plant closures and layoffs. I recall reading an article that said for every 1 GM job that there's 7 others that exist because of it (suppliers for example).
Funny watching people try to blame this or that. Comes down to what people are buying and where they can make the same product the cheapest. GM will close plants in the USA on some models but move more of their work to Mexico or China.
Also as per your statement about "for every 1 GM job that there's 7 others that exist because of it (suppliers for example)." It probably goes even farther then that. I know, I was one of those effected by all the shifts from USA to Mexico in the mid 2000's. Worked at a manufacturer that built robotic tooling for another company. They provided the carpets, door panels and other items for several different auto companies. Once the auto manufactures moved many of their plants out of country. So did that company. Then our company followed suite and closed 4 of the 5 plants we had. We lost 50 employees in our plant alone. The other company probably laid off hundreds. But it didn't stop there. We were one of the main purchasers from another company in same town. They closed down also. Several other local suppliers laid off people. Keep in mind this was a smaller town. So just about every business in this area took a huge hit. Including the gas stations, pizza and sub shops we all went to everyday when we worked in that town. This was in 2009. Nine years later and you can drive through the town and see all the big closed down building that were once busy making products.
@thelaw, historically, I thought the office of the US presidency has been one of the longest lasting modern day leader/ruler positions and has outlasted almost all others, so short term, we are doing quite well. However, you are correct and I agree, from the long term standpoint of over all history and the lenghth of other historic governments, 240+ years is a very, very, very short time.
I think what people are seeing here is the collapse of the great experiment. Henry Ford did something a long time ago that the other manufacturers thought was plain suicide. He offered his workers a living wage. This made every one of his workers a potential customer, and consumerism was born.
But he was not the most noble of business men either... his thugs actively sought to bust up the auto workers unions that sprang up as Henry established the standard three, eight-hour shifts that was working men to death, literally. As he kept increasing the assembly line speed, workers were forced to work harder for the same daily wage.
What we have now are corporations owned by global stock holders more than limited domestic investors, and so the aggregate they are looking for is stock price, and dividends... what have you done for me lately? GM is just responding to the market pressures, both at home on the dealers lot, and on Wall St. If the investors were more country-centric, that is you have more Americans investing soley in American companies, then stock holders might not mind when the company does something good for American workers, but not so great for investors, knowing they are ultimately helping America stay strong. Sadly, this is not the case and every global investor is screaming for their pound of flesh. GM has no choice but do those things that keep it in business, things not so good for America and American workers. If you try and force them to stay and build cars in America, then we should not be surprised when we look at that sticker in the window and our jaw hits the floor. You either help out the domestic auto production by removing tariffs, or you keep steel prices high and force jobs to move to lower wage countries to help balance the increase in production costs.
So who put all the tariffs on steel? The answer is not China...
Quoted from Zablon:It's not just GM, my company is doing a round of layoffs right now too. They always do around this time (when they do). It's a corporate thing to add that extra knife twist for being a loyal employee.
Back in the day loyalty was a two way street. These days organizations ask their employees to be loyal but do not reciprocate.
I think one of the reasons for this is because C-level executives are beholden to board's of directors who give them enormous salaries.
These boards are in turn beholden to shareholders, the biggest of which are usually members of the boards themselves. In this system no one actually cares about the workers or people who do the work.
I understand that Ford has done even worse than GM in the last few years.
I hope it is not the case, but I expect we'll be seeing similar news from them at some point soon.
I'm not directly affected but my pin-hauler is a Chevy Express Van, which I really love.
This is in spite of it not being very reliable so far.
Quoted from GamesGuy5280:Back in the day loyalty was a two way street. These days organizations ask their employees to be loyal but do not reciprocate.
I think one of the reasons for this is because C-level executives are beholden to board's of directors who give them enormous salaries.
These boards are in turn beholden to shareholders, the biggest of which are usually members of the boards themselves. In this system no one actually cares about the workers or people who do the work.
I understand that Ford has done even worse than GM in the last few years.
I hope it is not the case, but I expect we'll be seeing similar news from them at some point soon.
I'm not directly affected but my pin-hauler is a Chevy Express Van, which I really love.
This is in spite of it not being very reliable so far.
Yea, I'm not one who doesn't understand that sometimes you have to cut back, but these days it really seems to be a one way street when it comes to companies and 'loyalty'.
Quoted from Bublehead:historically, I thought the office of the US presidency has been one of the longest lasting modern day leader/ruler positions
Politics-...
Maybe they need to quit making everything 4 cylinder turbos with start/stop technology. Just give me a good old v6 and let me decide when the engine shuts off.
I’m not going to bash The President for the 1001 things everyone else wants to bash him for... I could care less, except the tariffs are his, he has to own those. He’s trying to bully a bully and Auto makers and steel workers and steel users are feeling the punches... If he was trying to protect the worker, he has a funny way of showing it. And now threatening to remove GM’s subsidies? Thats good for GM workers too? Hasn’t the little man taken it in the shorts enough already lately, or is a pink slip in with your next paycheck what you expected for Xmas?
Like him or hate him, the problem is Trump is a bad business man and always has been. He's trying to run the country like a company where he's the boss and what he says goes, which just isn't the case. He's not used to having people not just be 'yes sir' to everything he says.
Threatening GM as he has isn't going to fix anything - just probably make things worse. As for the auto industry, it has always been cyclical. What kills me is you hear people complaining about the prices of trucks and SUVS and gas, yet that is what everyone is buying (according to the companies). I own Ford stock and let's just say....I wish I didn't.
We live in the Detroit area so this is pretty big news. We are loosing an assembly plant and a transmission plant a few miles from our house. Its going to be a tough Christmas for a many families around here but it's a way of life for the auto industry.
As for the Volt, I am on my second one and they are probably two of the best cars I have ever owned. That being said, it is probably one of the most misunderstood cars on the road so I understand why they are killing it. I have talked with several GM engineers who don't even know how it works in terms of electric/gas range, etc. I've said it for years, if a GM engineer doesn't know how it works, how will the public ever embrace it? When I first got one, people were always asking "what I would do if I ran out of electricity?" or "It only has a 40 mile range, how can you take it up north?" Now, after 5 years of Volt ownership, I've given up trying to "market" this car or answer any of these questions. In fact, I told a couple of people I have a very long extension cord for "just those occasions" and they kind of nod and seem to accept my answer. People are so ignorant about the Volt, its almost laughable.
The fact of the matter is that people, especially in this town, want their big trucks. The Detroit freeways are littered with F150's, Dodge Ram's and Silverados all going 80mph in any weather conditions barely in control dodging in and out of lanes. I see more 3/4 ton trucks on their roofs in ditches during the winter compared with any other vehicle. My pin hauler is a 2017 Chevrolet Silverado. Great truck and assembled well....but its a truck. It drives like a truck, guzzles gas like a truck, accelerates like a truck and MUST be respected when it comes to quick brake stops and bad weather conditions. The Volt's ride is superior, the gas mileage is superior (even when running on the engine) and its a much greater joy to drive IMHO even in the snow.
Volt technology will continue to work its way into other GM products including people's trucks, I just doubt you will see GM try to "explain" the technology to people like they did with this vehicle.
Quoted from iceman44:No thanks
My brother just got back from that smog infested cesspool
Climate change? Will it matter what anyone else does in the world if China doesn't reform? Nope.
couldn't agree more...cesspool is being nice !
Quoted from Bublehead:I could care less,
Uhh, that's "I couldn't care less..."
Quoted from Bublehead:And now threatening to remove GM’s subsidies?
That is just an empty statement so he can say he is being tough.
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/27/business/gm-trump-subsidies/index.html
"It's not clear what subsidies Trump was referring to.
"A person familiar with the matter told CNN Business that GM is unaware of any significant federal subsidies the company is receiving beyond a $7,500 plug-in tax credit, which goes to the consumer, not the company.
"The federal government provides that tax credit for each plug-in vehicle purchased. However, this subsidy goes away once an auto maker reaches 200,000 electric cars sold. And GM may hit that threshold by the end of the year, making its 2019 and 2020 tax credits smaller.
"The entire industry qualifies for this. It's nothing exclusive to GM," said Jeremy Acevedo, manager of industry analysis at Edmunds.
@iceman44, totally agree. China is so big, their middle class outranks our entire class structure of low/mid/hi... it is self perpetuating at this point. No matter what anyone else does, if China does nothing, we, as a planet, may be fucked. And I’m not just talking climate change, you don’t even need to go there, the polution index will be off the charts, much less the climate impact. We need to manage how fast we bring the quality of life of everyone up to meet the modern western societies. It is wonderful to bring people out of the third world, but we need to be aware of the overall burden to the planet that it could cause. We dont need to all be goat hearders and wear sandals and live like hippies in communes, but we all cant have a personal jet either...
Im sorry Im a bit more of a fatalist right now, and feel this is the tip of the Iceberg.
Pinside isnt the place for this, nor today is any form of social media or even family discussion.
i could be wrong, but with daily emails from friends and family around the world, Family in DC, as well as on the inside,
and enough free time now to learn, I hope Im wrong, but the info suggests otherwise.
GM will get bailed out once again .
GM also makes a ton of reman parts for non gm products.
They will make it...even Dodge made it.
IMO intrest rates is tightening down on growth.
@cottonm4, you join a long list of people, my wife included, that catch me saying it the wrong way and correct me... so I am pretty used to that one.
As far as his subsidies rhetoric, why say it at all then if it wasn’t true, and I am asking, not as a “it must be true, or why say it?” point of view, but from a “what did he gain by saying it” point of view? Looking tough, and being tough requires you have a tough position to stand on, and if there are no subsidies to revoke, what tough position did he have to stand on? As a smaller man, would I want him saying he is going to hurt my employer by removing them? That doesn’t make me want to vote for him in 2020... especially if I am a worker in Detroit directly affected by this, of which, currently I am not, but to be honest, my Dad was a retired blue collar worker from GM, and my mother still gets his retirement checks from GM, so I have some family skin in the game.
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:Im sorry Im a bit more of a fatalist right now, and feel this is the tip of the Iceberg.
Pinside isnt the place for this, nor today is any form of social media or even family discussion.
i could be wrong, but with daily emails from friends and family around the world, Family in DC, as well as on the inside,
and enough free time now to learn, I hope Im wrong, but the info suggests otherwise.
An old lady at Costco randomly said to us yesterday "You do know these are the last days"
So I said "The last days of Pompeii?"
She just gave me a dirty look and muttered something as she walked away.
Quoted from o-din:An old lady at Costco randomly said to us yesterday "You do know these are the last days"
So I said "The last days of Pompeii?"
She just gave me a dirty look and muttered something as she walked away.
Not fair 
.....If we visit each other one day, Ill tell you stories from the Pentagon, and White House.
14,000 layoffs is really brutal, during the holidays especially. Supposedly many will have to the opportunity to relocate.
Leading up to the 2009 Bankruptcy filing by GM they had lost 100 billion over the previous 5 yrs.
They get the 49 billion bailout from the taxpayers, make a profit of 22 billion over the next 5 yrs through 2014.
2014 was the year the Federal Govt sold its remaining shares of GM stock for a loss of about 11 Billion.
Now it's either layoffs or bankruptcy again?
Higher interest rates aren't gonna help auto sales or home sales leading into the coming recession.
I am more of a realist... I dont ever expect things to get rosey all of a sudden and rainbows and unicorns to start shooting out my ass...
We are not in any end times and we certainly are not totally fucked... yet, but we are getting in deeper water, and it is getting harder to swim...
Hopefully these cuts were to avoid another Bailout or Bankruptcy..... I doubt they would have gotten any more funds....
Think this is the reason, Ice?
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:Not fair .....
With enough friends that are already conspiracy nuts, I'm always ready when a stranger starts laying their head trip bullshit on me.
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:Hopefully these cuts were to avoid another Bailout or Bankruptcy..... I doubt they would have gotten any more funds....
Think this is the reason, Ice?
That's what they claim. Necessary to avoid future bailout/bankruptcy.
Getting profitable by cutting cars not selling and the labor that goes along with them "will lead to adding jobs back in the future".
It's not just GM, its the suppliers that will take a hit as well.
Not sure which management team has been worse since 2000, GM or GE?
Quoted from Bublehead:You either help out the domestic auto production by removing tariffs, or you keep steel prices high and force jobs to move to lower wage countries to help balance the increase in production costs.
Another perspective is that we need to take a long term view to protect US economic competitiveness and jobs and make difficult strategic choices - and ensure we don't have to depend on anyone at the end of the day in an uncertain world to build our tanks and ships. Doubt GM decided to rationalize its product line and workforce base on a snapshot of the current political/trade environment. Other US based car manufacturers seem to be adapting better.
Quoted from iceman44:Higher interest rates aren't gonna help auto sales or home sales leading into the coming recession.
No, but it's sure going to help those who are not in debt and like to earn some interest. 
Last year, her total compensation was $21.96 million — about 295 times as much as GM's median employee. That's actually a drop from 2016, when she was compensated $22.58 million. That total compensation, which includes stock awards and pension payments, represents more than what she actually saw in pay.
Great job Mary Barra.
Quoted from iceman44:That's what they claim. Necessary to avoid future bailout/bankruptcy.
Getting profitable by cutting cars not selling and the labor that goes along with them "will lead to adding jobs back in the future".
It's not just GM, its the suppliers that will take a hit as well.
Not sure which management team has been worse since 2000, GM or GE?
Perhaps they will make a car that runs on Beautiful Clean Coal!
pasted_image (resized).pngFrom what I have seen there are already more than enough cars on the road and most people tend to do a lot of unnecessary driving anyway.
Hey Odin,
You have Musks Tunnel going on there.....isnt anyone concerned with all the minor tremors, it wont last?
Quoted from ccbiggsoo7:if jjp and stern would quit producing games I could afford a new car!
Yea! These NiB games are killing the auto industry!
Quoted from Zablon:Yea! These NiB games are killing the auto industry!
they are on my end, brother!
Quoted from ccbiggsoo7:if jjp and stern would quit producing games I could afford a new car!
For some reason, when mentioning them, this is what comes to mind as a new car.
Unknown (resized).jpgA lot of these posts are just garbage. GM bought back billions of dollars of stock so that the Executives (who get paid largely in stock) got their compensation goosed. GM says that they need the new cuts to be an "agile" company. They will save 6 billion from the cuts. If they wanted to be "agile" they could have kept the original 10 billion buy back money in the bank.
Going through layoffs in the oil industry, I can tell you, these cold heartless pieces of crap who run these companies are immoral and down right evil. They are not creating anything, just destroying lives of people who are honest and hardworking. Being in the highest of the high meetings, I can tell you first hand, some of these top people are garbage.
The President has every reason to question what is going on. This is not a Republican or Democrat issue. It is not a conservative or liberal issue.
Quoted from Patentlaw:A lot of these posts are just garbage.
After a couple more years on this website, you kinda get used to it.
Quoted from iceman44:Not sure which management team has been worse since 2000, GM or GE?
I remember my buddies trying to con me into GE stock when itwas $17 aboot ten years ago. They were bragging when it was $32 and were holding for a double at $34. Then the old double top happened and it's below $8.00 . But it pays a good dividend. How's that working out these days?
Quoted from pcprogrammer:Maybe they need to quit making everything 4 cylinder turbos with start/stop technology. Just give me a good old v6 and let me decide when the engine shuts off.
You have been watching The Scotty Kilmer Show. Yes ? No ?
Quoted from Bublehead:cottonm4, you join a long list of people, my wife included, that catch me saying it the wrong way and correct me... so I am pretty used to that one.
As far as his subsidies rhetoric, why say it at all then if it wasn’t true, and I am asking, not as a “it must be true, or why say it?” point of view, but from a “what did he gain by saying it” point of view? Looking tough, and being tough requires you have a tough position to stand on, and if there are no subsidies to revoke, what tough position did he have to stand on? As a smaller man, would I want him saying he is going to hurt my employer by removing them? That doesn’t make me want to vote for him in 2020... especially if I am a worker in Detroit directly affected by this, of which, currently I am not, but to be honest, my Dad was a retired blue collar worker from GM, and my mother still gets his retirement checks from GM, so I have some family skin in the game.
The Prez. took his lessons from and attorney named Roy Cohn. The short lesson is never apologize and never back up. If your opponent hits you you hit back. Always. And hit twice as hard. I'm not being political. This is just the Prez's MO. If you look back over the last two years, I think you might agree that this action is has served him well as he skates from one news reporter crisis to another.
He always talks in platitudes. "It is going to be something really good.; We are going to make changes to Obamacare and they are going to be great.; So-and-so is the grandest politician I have met. "
He always says a lot without ever really saying anything. And it pacifies the masses. And while the news media is chasing him from one "transgression to another" he keeps moving on and leaving them in the dust. It is just amazing to watch how the leads the media around by the nose. The media is too busy right now trying to cover the border that the issue with him not showing us his taxes is water long under the bridge.
Let's put it this way: If you went onto a car lot to "just look around" and Trump was your sales guy, you are going to be leaving with a car that you just bought. And it was not even a car you wanted. Instead of that sports coupe, you are leaving the lot in a station wagon.
He is the master of the time tested practice that if you keep talking about it and keep saying that it is true, if you keep doing that, eventually, a majority of people will start believing you.
Quoted from o-din:For some reason, when mentioning them, this is what comes to mind as a new car.[quoted image]
1981 Chevy Citation (OG) was my first car... Dad's buddy sold it to us for 150. Sideways radio gotta love it
One day I'll get the Citation X-11 with the 2.8 HO.
Quoted from cottonm4:Food for thought:
Auto dealerships in U.S.A. like to fly the Stars and Stripes over the tops of their dealerships.
Ford dealer flies the American flag.
Chevy dealer flies the American flag.
Chrysler dealer flies the American flag. ( Chrysler is now owned by that German company ).
Honda dealer flies American flag.
Toyota dealer flies American flag.
and on and on.
So, it stands to reason that the Chinese auto dealers will be flying the China flag over their dealerships. Don't it? Doesn't it? Does it?
It does not take much of a stretch to imagine that one could see a Chinese dealer's lot full of Buicks getting some shade from under a Communist Chinese flag in China.
Chrysler is not owned by a German company . It is part of Fiat Chrysler Automobiles , an Italian-American company registered in the Netherlands with headquarters in London , U.K. .
The Buick Envision is a Chinese made vehicle that is sold in the U.S. and now GM is planning to shift their production to more vehicles of this type . Will they be made in the U.S. ? At what point is GM considered a Chinese company only flying American flags over their U.S. dealerships ?
Quoted from Patentlaw:A lot of these posts are just garbage. GM bought back billions of dollars of stock so that the Executives (who get paid largely in stock) got their compensation goosed. GM says that they need the new cuts to be an "agile" company. They will save 6 billion from the cuts. If they wanted to be "agile" they could have kept the original 10 billion buy back money in the bank.
Going through layoffs in the oil industry, I can tell you, these cold heartless pieces of crap who run these companies are immoral and down right evil. They are not creating anything, just destroying lives of people who are honest and hardworking. Being in the highest of the high meetings, I can tell you first hand, some of these top people are garbage.
The President has every reason to question what is going on. This is not a Republican or Democrat issue. It is not a conservative or liberal issue.
We all like to buy stock and have it go up, but truth is when Wall Street (hedge funds ) get its claws into a company we start seeing things like the Epipen screw-the-public-over. Or that pissy faced guy that bought that drug company and boosted that cash cow $1.00 pill into the hundreds of dollars per pill.
Hired gun executives are the worst.
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