I'm out on NIB, prices are getting dumb. I'll just wait for them to hit the used market and save a grand or two and get mature code.

Does Jared still work for stern? If so, he needs to tell Gary to cut back on the crazy talk.

BKsor LE second hand are hovering around 8k. That’s 1k less than nib. Not bad

I agree but with correction...

they best priced "bare bones, entry model" NIB pinball available

It is honestly the one thing I really hope we see with Deeproot or someone else... the ability to make an entry level pinball for 4500 or less.

I firmly believe there is a market and also the ability. It would take some changes but many of the puzzle pieces are there.

Come on people, Gary was obviously just talking about how the profit margin on the Pros is small. This is just a ragebait thread.

Also throw in a cheapening of parts and overall design (cabinet, etc)... time factor plus stripped down quality certainly makes a case for a pretty good profit built in and an aggressive increase in pricing over what it was just a few years ago.

All that said, Gary Stern might very well have been referring to what the market can bear. That, after all is where Stern’s interpretation of pricing falls. Why sell something for $4500 when they can make a better overall profit at $5500.

Perhaps Stern thinks they can bump the Pro pricing a few notches higher and still achieve what they need to stay healthy?

Probably the case.

It’s been said a million times: buyers are the ones that ultimately set the price they’ll actually pay. If the market won’t pay Stern’s price, they can either (1) lower price or (2) cease business.

It’s pretty simple.

Pinside doesn’t represent the larger pinball buying public... so I think it’s really hard to say how most buyers actually feel about dropping $5k+ on one of Stern’s stripped down models. Based on Sterns factory growth and hiring of quality folks over the past few years, not to mention their continued interest in manufacturing games... I’d say they are priced right. Doesn’t mean I like the prices. But, I also don’t like paying $5 for a carton eggs. But I still do it.

It never ceases to astound me that Stern - which sells the cheapest, most reliable commercial pinball machines with the most sought-after themes and is the least likely to steal your money and most likely to deliver your game in a timely fashion - is the company that catches the most shit over prices.

To me this is pretty much insane but not very surprising given the complete lack of logic most big-time home buyers like to indulge in.

When Spooky is having no trouble selling games like TNA for more than Stern sells their games for, Stern games are obviously underpriced. Better buy 'em while they are dirt cheap!

For even mentioning this topic...

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Totally right. Nobody can sell a game shipped as cheaply as Stern can. While myself and many feel we are being priced out of the market, the Stern Pro is still the cheapest machine out there and they are fun fast paced games often with great themes and assets.

I’m not sure what else Gary would have said in any interview? “We sell products that are too expensive?” If he said that the investors would think he was senile. He had to say they were under priced.

All of this discussion though makes me think Stern needs to get back to focusing on the home edition game. Get rid of the coin door and some other things and drop the price a couple grand.

I just looked up my purchase order from 2010 ... NIB was $3950 (and I still have the game )

The word "cheap" and Stern can be mixed and used in many ways

Stern may be able to raise the price of the pro but I think the fact JJP dropped the price of the standard I think the high-end price top has been found

I don't think it's possible. So far nobody has shown they can release a "home model" that is sufficient for a commercial pinball collector. There's really not much you can strip off one of these games without making it seem like a cheap toy. Getting rid of the coin door ain't gonna do it - what do you save a hundred bucks at most? I think many of us could live without a coin door but it's the "other things" you mention that's always going to be a dealbreaker.

The most recent attempt - Spider Man home model - showed the limits of this concept. It's basically a fun, commercial-style pinball machine, as anybody who has played Supreme can tell you. I'd have no problem having Supreme in a collection, it's a real pinball machine. Spider Man - which I played at FUN! in Texas and sold for around $1,000 less than a regular pro - doesn't feel that way, despite having the same rules, playfield, and mechanics. The cheap plastic box masquerading as a "cabinet" is just horrible, feels like junk, and the single crap speaker located right over your right ball sack doesn't do the trick either. Not to mention it's the only Stern I can think of that doesn't have an actual plunger.

Yes, we'd all love something close to a pro for "a couple grand" less but so far there is zero evidence that this is feasible.

The top dog always catches shit same as NY Yankees and the New England Pat's

Absolutely!! People want the real deal and anything short of a commercial coin op isnt going to cut it.

unless I missed the memo... TNA is long sold out...

You didn't miss the memo, just the point.

TNA sold out easy at far more $ than your average Stern Pro, which has a lot more to offer. And zero complaints or bitching about the price on a game that would have been lambasted as "stripped down" if Stern offered it up.

As operator, collector, and business owner I think Gary’s statement is completely reasonable. It is clear the margin on the pros is much less than premium / LEs and also likely less than competitors. Operators can buy a game around $5k, make money, and resale without much of a hit. On a higher priced game (say premium, LE, JJP, etc) you can’t charge more for people to play (so ROI is much longer) and the hit on resale is much more. So allowing operators to showcase games for them is a good business model for both parties.

This also allows budget conscious consumers and newbies getting into the hobby a good entry level price. Once they are hooked(like me), then perhaps they will spend more on LE / premium.

We can all complain pinball prices are too high, but the companies must make money to survive.

Agree 100%. Amen.

I guess he is saying margins are small on pro's but we can live with that, as they are huge on the LE models

In reality, what business isn't going to make the maximum amount of money it can?

you missed more than the memo if you think TNA is stripped down.

TNA is a comparable build to a premium Stern in all aspects.

You have got to be kidding me!

I would take a Stern Pro over any Spooky game...I just don't find Spooky games to be any fun and the build quality is worse than Stern.

Fun is subjective, but in terms of build quality, Hilton routes games from all companies, so he has a good handle on what holds up on route. My personal experience is minor compared with his, but I had zero issue with my Spooky. Great build quality IMHO. I also haven't had many issue with Sterns. I had to replace one board and one magnet coil in my Metallica. In terms of what's under the hood, TNA certainly has the quality of components only found on Stern's Premiums.

Have you seen a spooky cabinet?

Why would he route games that don't hold up on route?

not joking at all!

Add up all the features in TNA from custom soundtrack, full light show, awesome upgraded speaker system, tons of controlled mechs, 3 flippers and tons of slings, beautifully engineers danesi lock mech, amazing code package, co-op capabilites, real BG, etc... as I could go on and on.

As someone that routes and collects games from all manufacturers (TNA on route and 2 members have it at home also), it is honestly not even remotely close. TNA is BY FAR the best built, easiest to maintain, rock solid game I have ever had the pleasure of operating. Stern is WAY WAY WAY down the list on quality of build. From metal thickness, component quality, pf quality, etc...

If you are thinking of AMH build quality as what Spooky is, then you should actually spend some time looking over their games as they have progressed and improved leaps and bounds to where they are now.

If you dont find TNA fun, then that is your opinion and I dont think anyone can help you there.
*granted you seem to be more of a LE collector type person and you have a SWEP1 in your collection, so...

sometimes you route something for theme alone, even if it is a real PITA to keep running.

i.e. GOTG is by far the biggest headache of any game I have routed in the past 5 years.
node board issues, drop target issues, groot issues, lighting issues, intermittent weak flipper issues, chipping pf issues, loose parts out of box and falling apart.

Sounds like a real piece of shit, but must make you a ton of money if it's worth putting up with.

I had a TNA in route for a few months but the code was too buggy and I dumped it. It would throw weird drop target errors and not kick the ball out of the scoop or just plain lock up. It just wasn't ready for prime time. I stick with Stern pros or cgc. They're hands down the best manufacturers.

Ill hope JJP is making more games because ill never buy a NIB Stern anymore. Quality of Stern is not even close to JJP

unfortunately no.

It has been one steady headache after the other.
Granted most issues seem to be worked out now, but it has taken a disproportionate amount of time and effort to do so.

It is not like we would go sell a non-functioning game off for someone else to deal with and when you route games, you deal with problems as they arise.
Unfortunately each successive Stern has had more and more issues with evident lower quality base parts.

It has been going on for a long time I am sure but TWD was the last real quality build we saw.
Aerosmith we got pretty lucky on (granted a split cab out of the box).
Most of the others post TWD have been lots of the same issues and getting worse.
GOTG just happened to be the worst of them all for mechanical things.

Pf quality continues to get worse and maiden and beatles seem to be the start of that new issue.

sounds like a flaky connector issue. bummer you had an issue.

Been routing one since #2 came off the line a long time ago now and pretty much error free.
There is good reason it has been out this long and still gets moved around.

Those drop/optos all need to be working correctly for everything to know what to do with that lock mech.

You were NOT paying $4800 for a Pro in 2010. And if you were, you were crazy. However, you are paying a much higher percentage of the MSRP now.

And NO, Stern Pro games are not underpriced. I always had that 5k limit for a Pro game. The slammed through that during the fast increases. I did the $5100 AC/DC Pro Vault, but that was because it was already a great game.

So, they priced me out of the NIB Pro market. There are 3 current games they have out that seem like good fun. But not at the current prices. Back below 5k it was easy, but now it is a much larger tax to open a new game. I'm watching HUO Munsters Pros sit at 4800, and I'm sure the owners of those are thrilled with the new pricing. Once new hit 5600 on the street I don't even check with my distributor anymore.

TL;DR - Gary, Pro games don't have enough value anymore.

Consider the construction of practically every electronic pinball machine made prior to 1999-
Compare it to the craftsmanship of a Stern and raw materials used in a Stern Pro-
Add in the fact that the one and only Pro that has held/increased it's value since 2008 is Tron-

Survey says:
NO - Not under-priced.

Not that much time? It was almost a decade ago! My house has almost doubled since then.

It does seem like you have terrible luck with Stern games in particular. Have you considered holding off and buying HUO a few months after launch, save a few bucks and let someone else test the game out and see if it's going to have the issues that have plagued your Stern machines? Might make your route operation more enjoyable.

I can see where this matters from a resale standpoint but does it affect route earnings? It sounds like you haven't had the playfield issues on TNA or recent JJP games that other have reported so congrats on that anyway, glad your poor NIB luck has not extended to other manufacturers.

Maybe Gary has to buy another Harley Davidson and pay for another wedding and needs the $$$?

Why in God's name are you still buying Stern games?

Sounds like a nightmare!!!!

Is it really worth all these hassles just so you can post here with authority about how shitty these Stern games are?

Seems like a reach. Though I know of one guy who spent close to $20K on a Magic Girl just for the Pinside Lulz so who knows, anything is possible.

Exactly the same for us. Gave Rob Zombie a shot. Fun pin, but lots or reliability and design issues triggered a very early removal. Have not operated a Spooky since. I still like Spooky and am interested in ACNC, but not for route. JJP not much better. I stick to Stern and CGC, which are the best built new pins you can buy. I also operate the occasional W/B, which need a bit more maintenance due to age, bit still hold up okay.

Good design takes lots of experience.

So what you really, "honestly" want are cheap pinball machines and believe there is a market for them?

Bold!

I know, this kind of honesty is refreshing.

What I honestly want are awesome pinball machines that never break with themes tailored solely to me for $3500. I'm being serious here!

Can anybody top my brutal honesty?!

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Good god no. Overpriced / Under featured.

Now that is saying something.

Not me. I prefer to be underwhelmed, by a lame, uninspired theme that's a flat out poorly built pos, that'll also drain my bank account faster than my ex-wife.

BKSOR Pro is actually way overpriced for a demo version of the game. Sterns biggest money grab yet.

Gary has no shame. This is the guy that bragged Stern could sell a box of lights with the right license. We thought he was joking. He wasn't. That's his goal.

You obviously didn't buy an Batman'66 SLE. The closest a pin has come to Gary's "box of lights" ideal at launch.

LOL. That's a good one. The pin rocks in all categories. My best earner yet.