Wow. What a tool.

I own a DESW and owned Baywatch and Jurassic Park that I sold last year. Like everyone said, they do have a completely different feel to them as well as sound. So many of them are unique. For instance you can select on BW the skill shot you want to go for. On Tommy there are the flipper blinders. Apollo 13 has a 13 ball multiball. I am sure there are plenty more out there I haven't had the chance to experience.

So different feel, absolutely! Does it matter...it is up to you. Don't throw out your chance of getting a fun pin, at usually a pretty good price, from reading reviews that Sega and DE pins suck. Go check them out yourself and you will probably be very surprised.

Also for what it's worth, I have my ear to the ground for another Jurassic Park and really miss Baywatch. I also sold my beautiful TAF, a No Good Gofers, and Fish Tales this last year and do not have the urge to run out and get another one...at least for now.

Good luck!

Batman Forever is a good game. A poor man's STTNG it's been called at times. It's from that early 90's heyday and you can tell they sunk some money into it with the large display, widebody, canon, etc. It doesn't feel "clunky" and I'll admit that there are a few Data East/Sega/Stern that do feel clunky to me for whatever reason. The risk is the large screen. If it dies, it's not simple or cheap to replace.

Intents and purposes might be the phrase you were looking for...

Hi,

I really loved data east / sega games!!!!
You often hear complains about them but they are really good.
I got many,
Robocop,star wars, starship troopers, goldeneye and had x files and batman but had to sell only because of space!
Esp. Goldeneye is a jem. And great sound and music.

Just buy one and convice yourself.

Greetings from the netherlands,

BasD

I didn't open the site, but I will tell you this... I had a manager at my last job that switched to basically an all raw diet and went from about 350 lbs to 200 lbs in six months between that and MODERATE excercise. As someone that has hovered around 280 for forever and a day, and been down to 220 (with just exercise) and back up, I know just how much work it takes for exercise to account for that kind of weight loss, and there's no way this guy would've been able to do it in 6 months. He was working full time, supporting 6 kids, and going to college. Say what ya want about kooks, but the raw diet thing can work if you're disciplined enough to do it and stay on it. When I went down to 220 from 280, took me about the same amount of time, but I was going to the gym 5 days a week for an hour and a half or more....

Dude, Gerry is purposely intensive!! Or should that be purposefully?

Oh, and isn't really all about rules? Those DE and Sega games have lots of cool stuff going on...but it's all academic if the rules are boring. Feel and QC are different matters entirely, but shouldn't be the make or break on a game.

I like the feel of the shots, too. That can go a long way to make a pin with shallow rules still really fun.

However, the SEGA pins I like have really good rule sets. Batman Forever has really great shots, and a fairly deep ruleset.

And Baywatch has a ton of shots AND a deep rule system.

SST isn't that deep at all, but it make up for that in being flat out fun to shoot.

I really enjoyed my Batman Forever. Nice looking machine that had great ramps and good callouts.

I have to disagree. Because you can tell the difference just by looking at a DE, to a SEGA. Now BF, BW, MSF and Maverick, look like DE games. Because they technically still are. Tho they say Sega on them, they were made during the change over. So they are more DE than anything else. The true Sega shitfest, starts after that. With crappy photoshopped washed out colored artwork. Lame ramp sets ups and crappy rules and call outs. Lets not even get started on the showcase backbox idea.

Now move on to when stern started taking over. Games looked and felt much better again. More like the DE era. Sharky's shootout feels a lot better than ID4. You can tell the difference. each company did things different and you can tell the difference. Sega's good to bad ratio was terrible. up there with Premier DMD line. Least the build quality on Premier games was top notch, and the toy ideas were fantastic. Just the rules were flawed on most games. Except Stargate, which has one of the most in depth ruleset in all of pinball (except TSPP and LOTR).

I have yet to find a Sega pinball I disliked playing. They pack a lot into each pin.

I was told for a long time how bad JPLW was. Even had a guy talk me out of buying his for 1000 dollars because it wasn't a 'collector style pin'...... and then I played one.. AND LIKED IT!

I don't disagree with you about the first four Sega games still basically being DE titles, and I can't even pretend to defend the artwork on most Sega games, as you were being nice with what you said about it. And, while I find their rules horribly hit or miss, and their call outs passable although sometimes awkward (hit a Jackpot on Viper Night Drivin' in adult mode and try to not feel embarrassed by the game), I will fiercely defend their ramp set ups. Almost all of the ramp set ups on the Sega games were actually really creative.

VND has four different ramps, and they are set up in a way that you can loop three of them non stop if you shot perfectly. SST has pretty standard ramps, but if the ball stops and falls back they have a secondary exit like few other games do, which is really neat. X Files has some amazing ramp work. So does Twister. And I'd throw Lost In Space and Apollo 13 in with this list too.

The ones that aren't really unique, like JPLW, aren't bad, they just don't stand out. But there are a lot of games that really do stand out to me as being surprisingly innovative.

On average, I find the Sega ramps far more interesting on average than just about any other manufacturer on a game. The problem with a lot of Sega games in my experience has been that the rule sets are not overly easy to grasp. I've told this story before, but I H-A-T-E-D VND when there was one at an arcade that I managed. Hated it so much that I wouldn't touch it after hours for free, I'd drive to places nearby to spend money instead. I had someone explain to me the rules, and the different things that could be done with the game to make it play the way that it was supposed to, and it remains now one of my favorite titles.

I have heard people talk about JPLW, SWT, A13, and Godzilla in similar fashions. All games I don't like and don't understand what is going on, but are supposedly awesome once someone walks you through what to do.

VND was one I wasn't even thinking about when making that post. I was mainly thinking about the overly overdone twisty ramps for no reason. Like ID4, Xfiles , LIS and shit like that. They make the playfield look overly cluttered. And not with toys either. It's like they used the ramps to try and make it look like the game has more on it, than it actual does.

Btw, I have seen MSF and BF that say DE on the cabinets before. So they definitely could be considered DE games. Anyone ever see a Baywatch or Maverick that says DE on the side? curious if all 4 did or not.

Btw, those out there thank think WOZ is revolutionary. Would have to also say they think Checkpoint is a revolutionary marvel. Since it's the first game to even have a DMD animated display.

TFTC is fun
SST is fun
Xfiles is wacky fun

TFTC is DE. People need to stop overlapping DE and Sega. They are different. Things were done differently from one company to the next. DE had a ton of good games. Some are awesome. Sega had 2% good games. Lets not dirty the water for DE please.

Hahahha.
The sst I played at Tonys was fun. The lwjp I bought seems pretty good. But I played lost in space and hate that game almost as much as wof. Although Chris was showing me how to play wof and it made more sense...

If I could have no machine or sega I'd still get one. Any pin is better than no pin, but there are only a few gooood degas, I agree.

If I keep reading posts from you, I'm going to die from second-hand wrong!

There are only a couple of bad Sega's in the whole line. Every-other Data East game is a one-shot wonder!

SST is awesome. Super fun game. Sounds are horrible. You have to gut the sound system and redesign it from scratch.

The art package on SST is horrible as well. Luckily they kept the photoshopped work down to a minimum. most of it, is colored insert boarders. Rules are great tho. Love me some SST. Out of the "pure" sega line. SST is the best. With the DE/Sega transition Batman forever is the best.

DE has great titles.

TFTC
Tommy
GNR
POTO
JP
Time machine
WWFRR

All of them are not one shot games.

SW was, but is now fixed. But still the best SW ever made.

Good Sega games

Batman forever
MSF
SST
Baywatch

Ok games
A13
twister
VND

Bad games
ID4
SP
LIS
Godzilla
Golden eye

WORST GAME EVER MADE IN THE STYLE OF DMD

XFILES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DE has some great stuff. Sega's track record on the other hand. That right there gives -10 points for having one of the worst games ever made in your arsenal.

As far as other games like Torpedo ally, and maverick and what not. I cannot say, as I have not put enough time on them to voice an opinion either way.

Are you seriously going to sit here and tell me that Time Machine isn't a one shot game? Really?

Captainneo what about lost world jp?!?

Come on, some of this guy's work is actually pretty good, granted LW3 is not one of them, but LAH, TFTC and GNR are very cool.

I actually kinda like the artwork. It's so different and distinct from the other machines and manufactures.

Oh, well, in that case, yeah, I do agree.

I think the look of the ramps is silly cool, kind of like Pinball Circus, but I would agree that after you see the balls go through them a few times, they are rather silly to have the extra loops.

And yes, people really shouldn't overlap DE and Sega as they were wildly different. I would say though that DEs recycled their code a little too often. I had Tommy and JP by each other for a while, and while they are both great games, I had to move Tommy a little further away because they illustrated just how similar they were to one another when they were side by side.

You mean there is another shot other than the Star Warp ramp?

I imagine it's a lot like car doors, there's a certain sound we associate with quality, even if we don't understand why.

http://www.lmsintl.com/closing-sound-quality-car-door-

Are they good - I won't make comments on pinball snobs - but only you can decide if they're good or not. Every manufacturer has some stinkers. I think it'd be fair to say DE/SAGA as a business strategy focused on theme first to sell their pins. Yes they feel different from B/W but so what. They can still be a ton of fun. DE Rocky & Bullwinkle is in my collection and will never leave. Ya its a cartoon but amazing backglass and art work. Lots of fun. Had a DE SW - again another great game. SAGA - would love to find a Godzilla and another game thats alot of fun is Lost in Space. Has the spinning wheel multiball couple decades before Stern X-Men. The ONLY thing stopping me from searching hard for a TMNT is the fact that the new movie is coming out and a slim chance Stern might pick it up as an option. Slim i know but here's hoping.

Some free advice - don't limit yourself by eliminating a game based on manufacturer. Play it - if its fun - it doesn't need a ton of repairs - and its the right price - buy it and love it. If you tire of it sell it. Great thing about Sega/DE is you can still pick them up for reasonable price and you should always be able to break even if you chose to sell. No loss and you had some fun in the interim.

The only downside I think of for DE and SAGA is there simply isn't as large a following so finding parts can indeed be a challenge. I've seen that start to change in just the last couple years though as more and more people pick them up to restore. Because they're licensed themes often finding game specific parts can be a challenge unless someone has undertaken the task of getting licensing rights in place to sell any replacement parts that contain licensed art.

I think I played that once. Okay, might have to take my statement back. Well, let's just say it's no JP. But hey, pinball.

You have a point but it does not equate to a healthy point. You can start smoking crack and lose a lot of weight too, but I would not suggest it.

For example Star Trek 25th & Tales from the Crypt "data east". Very good machines. DE is technically Stern, so some bad some good some great.

I like the art on SST, and I am an "art snob". Its cheesy and colorful, just like the movie. In fact I like the art over most pins made now.

I like JPs art too, but that does not change the fact that after you watch his video you are left with a bad taste in your mouth. Somehow the guy acts as if he is embarrassed by working on pinballs, but completely comfortable with promoting his poorly designed website about raw foods and what ever other strange ideas he has going on. Maybe he does not believe in pathogens. Maybe he thinks the world is flat and the moon landing is a hoax too.

I'm busting his balls though not yours. I do like a lot of his art.

That's true. You also shouldn't buy a pinball machine made on Monday or Friday - doesn't matter if it's a Bally, Williams, Sega, DE....

I wouldn't think too much about the manufacturer. The common brands all have their good and bad pins (try which ones you like).

Are you seriously going to sit here and tell us that games like LAH, WWFRR, GNR, Tommy, TFTC, etc. are one-shot games? Really?

Nope. I don't think I even remotely implied that. What would make you think I did?

Pretty much what I was getting at. He did state in the 90's he was the worlds #1 pinball artist, something I question. Yes, he did some great work, but #1?

"I didn't want to be known for that, I was a film maker, not a pinball guy"

Maybe he wants to be known for this instead:

CAUTION! DO NOT EAT WHILE VIEWING!

#1 pinball artist.......sometimes when you're full of sh*t you need a little enema.

Maybe he was #2?

I like Sega . Different feel to the cabinet and flippers from B/W titles but does the desired function . Criticism of South Park depends on point of view . My route operator friends said that game was a moneymaker . I don't have enough gameplay time for a objective rating myself . Price point when new and now used SEGAs lower so why not add a few titles to your collection for diversity . Shane

absolutely not. how you going to get multiball started if your not hitting the standups?

You don't need multiball if you keep hitting the starwarp ramp. The starwarp bonus is where all the points are!

And you can bypass hitting the standups... IF YOU HIT THE STARWARP RAMP!

that is true in a sense. So I guess in that aspect, it's like CFTBL. But TM is more fun. and a better multiball.

OK, so am I to understand that the clicking is a normal/expected thing? My little k10p-11d15-24 relay is clicking wildly while playing.
Curiously, when the GI lightshow happens in attract mode, no clicking. Why is that?

7 months. Not a tech thread. Don't go on an all raw diet. Allow the DE/Sega vs. B/W debate to die. It had been so nice without it.

Stay Puft.

Carl

SST is pretty and a blast to listen to. Love the theme, but too much multiball too often.

I was wondering the same thing as the OP, but from my new into pins question is the same, but no one has answered. Are the non B/W brands good as in do they hold up? Are the parts the same across the board?

one mans garbage.....i play my segas more than my others...id4 is fn fun to play....ramps on it are badass....callouts are spot on and exciting..... loop shots are fast and furious...yea it may not be deep....but everytime i play i walk away thinking ....thats fuckin pinball..... i guess everybodies opinion is different...dont even get me started on sst...