(Topic ID: 75713)

Are people passing on pre-order pins such as TBL, Hobbit, MMR etc.?


By rai

5 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 133 posts
  • 81 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by Noface
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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    There are 133 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
    #1 5 years ago

    I was excited to get on MMR LE list, but as there is no difference from the standard (except trim and shaker) and as I see dozens lightly used pins such as Woz for sale, it seems as if there is less reason to buy a game especially a game like MMR, TBL, The Hobbit all of which are not limited such as Predator or RAZA.

    So, I am thinking of dropping my pre-order for MMR LE, and holding off from The Hobbit and TBL as well.

    Anyone else feel this way?

    #2 5 years ago

    I just will buy them all, I am holding my MMR LE spot for now and in on the TBL for the time being to see more of it come together. I plan on likely buying into a Hobbit spot when it gets closer. I took way too many frustrating "journey" rides on the WOZLE in waiting for it, not going through that again.

    #3 5 years ago

    Stay in if you want the game and realize you will lose a few dollars when you sell it.
    Get out now if you were hoping for appreciation in value.

    #4 5 years ago
    Quoted from ScottinSGFNY:

    Stay in if you want the game and realize you will lose a few dollars when you sell it.
    Get out now if you were hoping for appreciation in value.

    I was thinking, games will be cheaper once they are selling, for example MMR now is $8k plus shipping, who is to say that once the regular games are for sale they won't be $7k (or whatever) as the case with WoZ dealers pay under msrp and are free to make deals compete against each other as well as have to be priced below used MMR LE prices.

    #5 5 years ago

    Passing on all pre orders for now.

    #6 5 years ago

    No preorders here. I was in on MMRLE (whatever we are calling it), but dropped it when I didn't see enough, soon enough. I think like with WOZ, I'd rather see the kinks worked out of new platforms before dropping 8 grand.

    #7 5 years ago

    I'm going to keep my MMR pre-order, but didn't want to commit to Hobbit as there's been little info on it and it's too far out. I'll probably get hobbit, but only after it's available

    #8 5 years ago

    I am already committed to Nemo and Predator.
    The only pre-order I would consider would be Wrath of Olympus, if produced. That would be great.

    #9 5 years ago

    If you are not finanically able to burden some amount of deprecation, you should not buy NIB. If you are concered about losing any value at some point in the future or where various price points will be, you'll worry yourself to death. Stick with what you like and how much you can afford. Simple as that.

    -2
    #10 5 years ago

    I don't really see any value in doing any of these recent pre-orders. Save 500 on a game that won't be released for 3 years--no thanks. MMR is getting cheaped out to be a poor man's home version since it's going to have guts like Vacation America. As much as I love the idea of a TBL pin, 8500 is simply insane. Prices have generally peaked (for now) IMO, so why bother with a pre-order unless you think it wouldn't be made otherwise and just want it that bad.

    #11 5 years ago

    Pre-order if you want it ASAP. Buy a used one if you wanna wait. Simple as that. SOMEONE has to buy them upfront to sell down the road. So - do what works for you.

    #12 5 years ago

    Passed on my STLE preorder but got back in after all the love on pinside and a good trade made it a viable choice. On the fence on MMR LE, like the trim and the shaker but may bow out for another older title. Trying to resist this buy pins before they out in the world even if it means I end up with a premium or pro or standard version. Metallica and X-men left a bad taste in my mouth about buying games before they are really out.

    32
    #13 5 years ago

    Pre-orders are enabling an endless chain of half-baked machines. Eventually one of the upstarts is going to sink and take your cash with them. In all the hobbies I've been involved with, I've never seen such a screwball mentality of throwing money in a rush to the next great unknown.

    Let them earn your money.

    #14 5 years ago
    Quoted from ScottinSGFNY:

    Stay in if you want the game and realize you will lose a few dollars when you sell it.
    Get out now if you were hoping for appreciation in value.

    Well that right there is some good advice. I'm totally out of the pre-order train myself. The isn't a good enough reason as a customer because the benefits of owning it first is outweighed by the risks of owning the first version of a new game.

    #15 5 years ago
    Quoted from pinstor12:

    Passing on all pre orders for now.

    ^^^

    #16 5 years ago

    The only pre order I am doing now is The Hobbit. I was in on Predator until I saw first hand what happened ( or didn't happen ) in Chicago.
    I am just going to wait to get a WOZ. Eventually a nice one will pop up at the price I want to pay. I don't need NIB. I play pinball machines, not boxes.

    The Lebowski pin? Not sending eight thousand five hundred american dollars for a pin that I can't get immediately. Especially with a pin that is just an idea right now.

    -1
    #17 5 years ago

    I initially pre-ordered STLE but dropped out upon hearing the price and got a Pro instead after playing it at Expo. I really can't see ever letting myself get involved with another pre-order again. Supply has started to exceed demand, so may as well wait to play an actual machine before buying. I also think that one or more of these situations is going to flame out and people are going to be out some serious dough.

    #18 5 years ago

    I'll wait until all games are finished, tried, and true before I buy anything NIB. I said it in a earlier post and I'll say it here. As long as people pay or preorder games with unfinished code, they will continue to send incomplete games out the door and then everybody can bitch about incomplete code. Guess what it's your fault...

    #19 5 years ago
    Quoted from TOK:

    Pre-orders are enabling an endless chain of half-baked machines. Eventually one of the upstarts is going to sink and take your cash with them. In all the hobbies I've been involved with, I've never seen such a screwball mentality of throwing money in a rush to the next great unknown.
    Let them earn your money.

    Well said, I do not want anyone to loose money but it is a small hobby and we will find the right amount of manufactures. The best will survive and we will have better machines in the end. Even JJP is finding out how hard code can be. They did take on a lot of extra code work with the display.

    I used to say $5 was all I would spend on pinball until I was able to pay in small amounts with WOZ and it was a gift for my retirement. It convinced me to preorder and spend more. I am not spending that much on this hobby again. Still not sure if I am keeping WOZ and I hate to sell stuff. Basically I am not preordering another pin until they cost less than $5k and then I will just wait until it is out and pay cash. There have been far to many games that I loved the theme and hate the game. I hated WWF but love my WWF pin.

    No preorders and cost has priced me out. I refuse to spend more on my pins than I do for three airplanes.

    #20 5 years ago

    The only game I ever pre-ordered and paid for was Big Bang Bar. Even then I talked to Gene Cunningham about his plans, and how realistic it all was, before I committed and send in my money. I even helped out in the pre-production of the game to make it happen.

    BBB obviously had a certain status, which made me want to own one. I can't say that for any of the titles that showed up after that had that status, so I didn't pre-order. That being said I wish all upstarting efforts all the best and hope they will succeed as it will make pinball in general more interesting and fun. We've seen what happens when there is no competition around.

    I am slightly tempted to pre-order TBL, because I see the potential and really would like to see DP pull this off and raise the bar for some of the other manufacturers out there.

    #21 5 years ago
    Quoted from absocountry2:

    Well said, I do not want anyone to loose money but it is a small hobby and we will find the right amount of manufactures. The best will survive and we will have better machines in the end. Even JJP is finding out how hard code can be. They did take on a lot of extra code work with the display.
    I used to say $5 was all I would spend on pinball until I was able to pay in small amounts with WOZ and it was a gift for my retirement. It convinced me to preorder and spend more. I am not spending that much on this hobby again. Still not sure if I am keeping WOZ and I hate to sell stuff. Basically I am not preordering another pin until they cost less than $5k and then I will just wait until it is out and pay cash. There have been far to many games that I loved the theme and hate the game. I hated WWF but love my WWF pin.
    No preorders and cost has priced me out. I refuse to spend more on my pins than I do for three airplanes.

    How reliable and expensive is freight to your part of the world?

    Nib isn't an option for me even if we do away with the biggest hurdle being price. Theme isn't a big deal and won't sway me in 99.99% cases and I'm not savvy enough to work out if I'll like or love a game based on play field layout pictures.

    #22 5 years ago

    Not sure if i ever could preorder something i havent seen the PF off really.

    #23 5 years ago
    Quoted from DaveH:

    Well that right there is some good advice. I'm totally out of the pre-order train myself. The isn't a good enough reason as a customer because the benefits of owning it first is outweighed by the risks of owning the first version of a new game.

    I totally agree with you and the post you are referring to - but out of pure interest: What are the benefits of owning a pin first?
    Never understood what the benefit might be other than that you get to play the game a few weeks earlier than others. Seriously, who cares about a few more weeks or even months playtime, especially in this kind of hobby where the machines will be around for ages and many of the most respected pins are decades old. Pinball is not like e.g. the fashion market where products go out of style after a short time or "get old" in any way.

    #24 5 years ago
    Quoted from someoneelse:

    I totally agree with you and the post you are referring to - but out of pure interest: What are the benefits of owning a pin first?

    Because someone has to ...if someone doesn't buy them new, then there won't be used ones down the road.

    #25 5 years ago

    I'm not sure what I'll do when JJP announces it's 3rd title, but I'm in on The Hobbit, and I love my WOZ as much or more than any pin I've ever owned, so if the theme is something I can't resist, I probably won't

    I do see the end of the pre-order model coming though, which may or may not be a good thing.

    #26 5 years ago

    Pins are no longer limited and the market is definitely saturated so it is foolish to preorder IMO. WoZ is a great example. No benefit whatsoever to preording it. Now you can get them for basically the same money and didn't have to wait 2-3 years. Plus most of the bugs worked out. Of course I was telling everyone that 2 years ago...

    MMR will be the same way. The smart thing to do will be to wait. Play it and if you really want it buy an HUO and save a grand.

    If someone actually makes a LIMITED pin in the future (200-300 max) then preordering is fine otherwise wait.

    #27 5 years ago

    I am back to a very quirky ideal. I now play a game before buying it, so that I know I like it. Strange really

    #28 5 years ago

    im in for MMR and HOBBIT. im thinking now though after reading this thread that i may back out of MMR though. love LOTR so the theme does it for me with JJPs next game. i would probably wait forever on that one based on the quality in the build with WOZ alone. the day i get my hobbit will be better than christmas.

    #29 5 years ago

    I'm in on mmr the only one I will ever pre order based on the fact I have played it. And I'm not worried about losing money on it because it's never leaving my house. If your not sure about it than wait like teekee said and save some money.

    #30 5 years ago

    I really wonder how much profit is being made on a new machine for 8k. I bet someone is making a ton of money. You can practically buy a new car for that money...maybe not the car of your choice, but it will still get you from point A to point B. I believe these companies are living in the 90's. The truth is that the economy is not good and most people can not afford new a 8-10k game...and if they can...they probably will wait to see the game before laying out money...even if it is refundable. I understand games can always be improved, but for 8k the code should be pretty darn good upon shipping. We wouldn't accept a new computer with an unfinished code or a new car with pieces missing...so why do we accept and allow this from pinball companies?

    #31 5 years ago

    I got STLE and passed on the rest.

    #32 5 years ago

    I am in on MMr and Hobbit. medieval is my holy grail.

    I think MMR will be successful for multiple reasons:

    - Rick knows in order to do more of the Bally/Williams classic repros he has to hit a home run.
    - He has the support of Williams and they have a lot to gain as well.
    - One big advantage he has is as a customer we know how it will play.
    - The risk/reward is in updating the electronics to new standards. Will it be high quality and reliable.
    - I think he has too much to lose in future sales to let that happen.

    One added benefit could be completed code for CC? That would be another title I would preorder if the code were completed like in CCC.

    Hobbit is another holy grail theme for me. There is some risk to Hobbit mainly from will he get the WOZs done fast enough. If he can't deliver fast enough and the majority of folks don't like it he will not be able to command top dollar no matter how well built they are and they are beautifully built like a tank.

    I will not pre order from Stern, and never have, until they have a proven track record of finish coding their machines.

    It's a buyers market right now so unless a pin is a holy grail theme no one should preorder.

    #33 5 years ago
    Quoted from FatAussieBogan:

    How reliable and expensive is freight to your part of the world?
    Nib isn't an option for me even if we do away with the biggest hurdle being price. Theme isn't a big deal and won't sway me in 99.99% cases and I'm not savvy enough to work out if I'll like or love a game based on play field layout pictures.

    One of my friends just received his WOZ. Shipping was almost $900. Not bad considering the distance, but more than half the pins in my collection.

    #34 5 years ago
    Quoted from teekee:

    Pins are no longer limited and the market is definitely saturated so it is foolish to preorder IMO. WoZ is a great example. No benefit whatsoever to preording it. Now you can get them for basically the same money and didn't have to wait 2-3 years. Plus most of the bugs worked out. Of course I was telling everyone that 2 years ago...
    MMR will be the same way. The smart thing to do will be to wait. Play it and if you really want it buy an HUO and save a grand.
    If someone actually makes a LIMITED pin in the future (200-300 max) then preordering is fine otherwise wait.

    You are correct on most points but even 2500 is a small number when talking about manufacturing numbers. I don't mean pins are limited as in edition types.

    I do not agree that you can get a WOZLE for basically the same price. They were 6500 until June 30, 2011and 7500 is the HUO price right now on it. $1000 is more than 10% and that is a fair amount even on 7500. Yes there are ways to make that much on 6500 while waiting but most of the people would not do that, they will buy something else to wait.

    #35 5 years ago
    Quoted from absocountry2:

    I do not agree that you can get a WOZLE for basically the same price. They were 6500 until June 30, 2011and 7500 is the HUO price right now on it. $1000 is more than 10% and that is a fair amount even on 7500. Yes there are ways to make that much on 6500 while waiting but most of the people would not do that, they will buy something else to wait.

    A lot of people preordered for $7500 and that is what you can buy them at today. And I see prices coming down even more as they continue to get delivered and as more new pins become available to spend your money on. If you preordered at $6500 you're doing okay but waiting 2-3 years still not worth the grand in savings IMO. Especially when many had to deal with the headaches and issues associated with WoZ...

    #36 5 years ago

    I'm in on MMR LE, PRED and waiting to hear on RAZA (and I got my METLE this way).
    I have no qualms about being on a preorder list whatsoever. I understand the concept of waiting and buying used/HUO and potentially saving a grand. But couldn't it go the other way? I know I paid more for my routed LOTR than it initially sold for. ***In no way am in this hobby to make money, just stating the flip side** I sometimes find it more of a hassle (as I am impatient) searching for used games and dealing with the drama of kijiji, CL etc. I have seen many claimed HUO examples that are pretty banged up, or have problems that I am not well enough versed to have spotted until I get the game in my possession. I get the concept "play the game, not the box" but how many threads have we seen regarding the smell of new game? Pictures of box-openings? Sometimes having it first can be magical - like an adult Christmas!
    Another thing I like about the whole pre-order scenario is that I am able to "save" up for a game and have the option to bow out fully refunded if I don't like the direction the machine is going. It allows me to play my current collection until I have had enough then sell to make room for the next title.
    In the end, to each their own, we all just like pinball.

    #37 5 years ago
    Quoted from teekee:

    A lot of people preordered for $7500

    I would not call 200 out of 1000 a lot. There were ~800 sold at 6500 June 30, 2011 and before. I would agree the advantages of ordering after June 30, 2011 are not great. I think that was the last day any preorders made sense in pinball. That is the day any advantage of preordering died for me.

    I do see the advantage of getting in on a preorder to get a specific title, but I do not have the cash to order every new pin.

    #38 5 years ago

    No pre-orders for me. Not a fan of plunking down thousands months or years in advance for something I can't see, have little idea what it ultimately will turn out to be and no firm delivery dates. I understand that firms need cash to build these machines, but that's what banks and investors are for. For Stern, no way I do this given how incomplete the games are and I likely won't buy NIB from them again until this changes, not to mention that prices on NIB seem to be steady to falling.

    #39 5 years ago

    With all these pinball makers jumping into the mix, it is only a matter of time before one of them fails to deliver an acceptable product and also fails to be able to refund.

    When that happens, it is all over. Until then, everyone just has to have faith and trust. Personally, I don't think I could ever send in thousands of dollars in advance on faith to a pinball start up.

    This is why I would wait until the product is complete, proven, and ready for delivery.

    #40 5 years ago

    Dad has Never pre ordered a pin and He will never due to money money money
    Some people don't have money growing at the bottom of their garden
    The newest machine my dad has in the house is ij4 and personally I don't like we're gonna get a newer machine like stern(2009-2014) , jjp, hp(heighway) just yet 2-3 years down the line maybe

    #41 5 years ago

    I've been in for a MMR since day one but, admittedly I've been wavering as of late. At first I was like 8k (actually 8300 shipped) is an awesome deal for a new MM and was stoked up and down. As time has passed and I've reflected more upon this whole notion, I’ve started to conclude that 8k+ is a shitload of cash for a pin (at least for me) and that it was really a perspective thing. For years MM was 10k+ now I can get a NIB for 8k+ but, that is still way more than I want to spend in the grand scheme. Ever since Luci came out, I've been thinking more about getting an AC/DC since the art was one of the biggest hang-ups for me before this edition was announced. I can get that NIB and save $1800, still have a kick ass NIB game and get the MMR later since there is really no difference that I cannot easily add later to the standard. Still on the fence but, starting to tip.

    #42 5 years ago

    I think it's interesting that the PPS website says "Expected price" and "Expected Availability" for MMR.

    While it's obvious that deadlines can/will slip, the wording seems to open the door to a price bump. Bizarre.

    I have no problem pre-ordering with a 10-20% down payment (did this for STLE and later decided to cancel the purchase). Paying 100% upfront for products with very fuzzy delivery dates isn't for me…did this with WOZ and ultimately bailed after many missed deadlines.

    Patience is goodness in this hobby…whenever I'm patient, the right pin finds me If I decide later on to get an STLE, WOZ, MMR, I'm sure they'll be around @ a sensible price.

    #43 5 years ago
    Quoted from bigdaddy07:

    At first I was like 8k (actually 8300 shipped) is an awesome deal for a new MM and was stoked up and down.

    I think that happened to a lot of buyers. They psychologically were drawn into this thinking "Wow, I can buy a new MM for $8000." After further review I think a lot of buyers now understand this is not actually a MM or at least the $15000 MM we've become accustomed to. And knowing they are making plenty they can be had anytime now or later... just too many ways to spend your money now instead of tying it up on an unknown product.

    #44 5 years ago

    I also think that the days of feeling like your cash is safe in these toys are behind us now, prices are starting to show clear signs of softening this past year and supply is catching ground to the demand. Now, I'm not suggesting that this is an investment, I understand that its not, however, I also don't like the idea of possible taking it up the backside in a major way if I was ever put in the position that required me to unload my collection. This makes a person think a little harder about purchases that are of the higher dollar amounts.

    #45 5 years ago

    I'm personally done with all the pre-order madness. My money is best suited elsewhere and if/when I want the game it will actually be finished. Snake bit one too many times with pre-order waiting and NIB crap code purchases.

    #46 5 years ago

    i will never pre order a pinball, ever, i like to try it first.
    games like MMR, WOZ, hobbit will be easy to get later.

    this pre order thing as to stop but as long as people keep doing it it's going to get crazier and crazier and will become the norm.

    #47 5 years ago

    I have enough $ in my pin funds for 1 more NIB. I have a MMR on pre order but pulling out. I'm afraid it'll just sit there like my other 90's pins do. Ever since AC/DC & Tallica,the older games just don't seem as fun anymore I think I'll hold out for a zombie or another rock music theme.

    #48 5 years ago
    Quoted from beatmaster:

    i will never pre order a pinball, ever, i like to try it first.
    games like MMR, WOZ, hobbit will be easy to get later.
    this pre order thing as to stop but as long as people keep doing it it's going to get crazier and crazier and will become the norm.

    No it won't, I think with TBL this act has finally jumped the shark as much as I wanted this title with tax and shipping we are looking at close to 10K.
    When I can pick up a LotR and a TSPP off route for 4K I will sit on my cash so I have it when deals like this happen.
    The market is saturated right now and it is a buyer's market so I see no sense in getting bent over at these ridiculous prices.

    #49 5 years ago

    I don't know the inside details, but:

    MMr = Planetary = inhouse B/W parts
    TBL = DP = order all B/W parts from Planetary + ship them to Europe for assembly. They may get a discount, but obviously there are extra expenses which end up in the price tag.

    Plus that the 8.5K for MMr seems to me more like a "what we can get away with" price, while 8.5K for TBL may actually be a lot more closer to the actual costs. So what's the point about complaining about this 8.5K if it is close to the actual costs. Obviously they're not likely to do it cheaper.

    #50 5 years ago

    so just out of curiosity...what is the real outlay that the manufacturers have to invest in a new game (not re-run)?

    For example...JJP's WOZ...besides the development of design, code, etc...what are the overall hardware costs to get the first run of machines out to the public? For example, if Woz has 20 coils per game...are they ordering 2000 coils at a time for the first run of 100 games?

    Taking this further, lets say the overall cost of hard supplies per game is $4k...to make the first run of 100 games, does the manufacturer lay out $400,000 in cash for supplies up front to get the first 100 units out?

    If thats the case, I think it would be very difficult for any "new" company to not have some type of pre-order. The designers, and team members of the project may be able to go a while before getting paid, but the workers in the facility, rent, etc all still need to get paid...

    Would JJP been able to bring WOZ to life without pre-orders? (just asking)
    JJP is not the size of Stern, but was the first manufacturer to really give Stern a run for their money. And in turn, if the DP guys want to follow in JJP footsteps, either they have to have big pockets, a few investors, a pre-order, or a combination of the three in order to pull this off.

    As I have stated before...if Stern had announced this I would have not pre-ordered, regardless of whether they wanted money or not. They have the means to do this, but just because you have the money to make an epic game, doesn't mean you will...

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