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(Topic ID: 130725)

Are games like TAF and TZ worth it?


By agodfrey

5 years ago



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  • 136 posts
  • 71 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 5 years ago by agodfrey
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There are 136 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
#1 5 years ago

Just thinking about it the past few days. And I should start out saying that TAF and TZ (esp TZ) are really cool well done games. But are they really 2-3x more game than say WCS94, JM, or Congo (wide range I know). These games seems to go for 2k-2.5k or SO. TAF and TZ seem to go for 5k-6k. I've had a discussion with my wife about getting a TZ a few times and we always come to the same conclusion.....there are enough 1k-2.5k games out there we like that it's hard to justifying selling 2-4 games to buy one.

To me it's a market thing. NOT a supply thing.....these are two of the most produced games ever. They are EVERYWHERE. Here are the Pinside owner numbers:

TAF (1118)
TAF Gold (145)
TZ (1549)

While......
Congo (223)
WCS (492)
JM (309)

So there are plenty to go around, no supply issue... not looking for a fight, just start a discussion on how these prices could be defended outside of pure market value. Which is cool. When I bought my JM I looked at the market to tell me what's fair and when I go to sell I'll do the same thing. Just thinkin'. Are there really three times the modes, toys, and fun?

Maybe you can convince me....

13
#2 5 years ago
Quoted from agodfrey:

Just thinking about it the past few days. And I should start out saying that TAF and TZ (esp TZ) are really cool well done games. But are they really 2-3x more game than say WCS94, JM, or Congo (wide range I know). These games seems to go for 2k-2.5k or SO. TAF and TZ seem to go for 5k-6k. I've had a discussion with my wife about getting a TZ a few times and we always come to the same conclusion.....there are enough 1k-2.5k games out there we like that it's hard to justifying selling 2-4 games to buy one.

If *you* can't justify the extra cost, we sure can't justify it for you.

Quoted from agodfrey:

To me it's a market thing. NOT a supply thing.....these are two of the most produced games ever. They are EVERYWHERE. Here are the Pinside owner numbers:

Huh?

A "supply thing" is part of the "market thing".

There is this other side to the market called "demand."

#3 5 years ago

They are only worth what you would pay for them.

#4 5 years ago

I don't think af or tz are on anyones best bang per buck list if that is what you are asking. I would rather have wcs, jd, and jm than af or tz but that is just me.

#5 5 years ago

I don;t really care to convince anyone that one game is better/worth more than another; a bold claim on Pinside I know.

#6 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

If *you* can't justify the extra cost, we sure can't justify it for you.

I was looking for a little discussion on what you like about the games. Also if TAF suddenly fell in value to say.....$2.5k how mad would you be... I suppose if it was a keeper thats one thing, sure 10k all day but if you buy it just to sell it later....that's a lot of cash tied up.

Just wondering friends. It's a forum. Let's have some dialog. It's more of an abstract thought experiment than a convincing....

#7 5 years ago
Quoted from agodfrey:

Also if TAF suddenly fell in value to say.....$2.5k how mad would you be... I suppose if it was a keeper thats one thing, sure 10k all day but if you buy it just to sell it later....that's a lot of cash tied up.

I wouldn;t care personally, becasue not a fan of TAF and wouldn't want one. If TZ fell in price I wouldn't care, doesn't change why I own it.

#8 5 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

If TZ fell in price I wouldn't care, doesn't change why I own it.

Very telling. And I can see that. Fun fun game. Cool.

#9 5 years ago

If I had a choice between an Addams and a Wrestlemania, I'd go with Addams. Both are similar in price. It's all relative.

#10 5 years ago

This all kinda came up with the MMR thing. A lot of people felt they were burned because the investment they made in MM got cut, we'll see how much. I do A LOT of driving and listening to podcasts and just thought these two games would make a good discussion starter.

#11 5 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

I wouldn;t care personally, becasue not a fan of TAF and wouldn't want one. If TZ fell in price I wouldn't care, doesn't change why I own it.

This except in reverse.
My TAF will never leave so I care not the going rate for it any longer. It's a fun game with great call out. Our friends love it and so does the wife and I. It's just fun, plain and simple.

#12 5 years ago
Quoted from roffels:

If I had a choice between an Addams and a Wrestlemania, I'd go with Addams. Both are similar in price. It's all relative.

I would agree as well. Addams is a lot more.....fun...and engaging.

#13 5 years ago
Quoted from JosiahCox:

My TAF will never leave so I care not the going rate for it any longer. It's a fun game with great call out. Our friends love it and so does the wife and I. It's just fun, plain and simple.

For a lot of people TAF holds a lot of nostalgia. Same goes for TZ. For some people that was their golden age. For some Gorgar was their golden age for them....lucky ducks!!!

#14 5 years ago

I don't personally care for TAF or TZ, but if the question included MM or AFM, then I would say yes, they are worth the extra. I might not ever buy them, but I can certainly appreciate why they are more expensive than Demo Man or other lower priced pins.

I don't own those two because they don't stack up as well against AC/DC and Metallica.

#15 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Huh?
A "supply thing" is part of the "market thing".
There is this other side to the market called "demand."

Yes supply and demand. TAF had something like......7x the amount of games produced than JM. Supply is WAY there...and demand might be there but there is 7X (or so) the amount of games. The way supply and demand works is when there is a shortage in supply the price goes up...right?

#16 5 years ago

The market price is the market price for a reason. This is always the case. There are no exceptions.

As to why TZ and TAF are worth so much more than Congo, JM, and WCS, it's because TZ and TAF are widely considered to be two of the best pins ever made, and they are in high demand. The demand is high enough to overcome the high number of them that were made compared to the other 3.

Anything else is just personal preference. I love my TAF, and I think TZ is great too. Both are better than the other 3 you compare them to, although I've owned those 3 as well and they are great bang for the buck pins.

#17 5 years ago
Quoted from agodfrey:

Just thinking about it the past few days. And I should start out saying that TAF and TZ (esp TZ) are really cool well done games. But are they really 2-3x more game than say WCS94, JM, or Congo (wide range I know). These games seems to go for 2k-2.5k or SO. TAF and TZ seem to go for 5k-6k. I've had a discussion with my wife about getting a TZ a few times and we always come to the same conclusion.....there are enough 1k-2.5k games out there we like that it's hard to justifying selling 2-4 games to buy one.

Just depends what kind of a collector you are- when I started, I was more of a "bang for the buck" collector. Of course I'd rather have 3 or 4 games instead of 1 for the same amount of money! ...but then sometimes there's an expensive game that you just really want - so, if you can afford it - you suck it up and buy it or wait for a "cheap" one to come along. Thankfully I waited on Addams, and was able to snag one for $2400....keeping it somewhat in the realm of my "bang for the buck" budget. I don't like TZ at all, so I was never compelled to buy one.

#18 5 years ago
Quoted from agodfrey:

Yes supply and demand. TAF had something like......7x the amount of games produced than JM. Supply is WAY there...and demand might be there but there is 7X (or so) the amount of games. The way supply and demand works is when there is a shortage in supply the price goes up...right?

No, you keep getting hung up on supply!

The demand is more than enough to make up for the supply in this case, or the market value would come down.

There could be 100,000 TZ's made, but if there are 150,000 people that want one....

#19 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

As to why TZ and TAF are worth so much more than Congo, JM, and WCS, it's because TZ and TAF are widely considered to be two of the best pins ever made, and they are in high demand.

Also theme. People have way more nostalgic love for Addams & TZ than Congo (terrible movie), JM (even worse movie), and WCS (cuz...soccer, who cares lol). All of them are actually good games...but a popular theme will carry a good game further.

#20 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

it's because TZ and TAF are widely considered to be two of the best pins ever made

I agree. I guess my REAL question is why do you guys like them? What draws you in and makes you feel it's that much more of a game?

Quoted from RobT:

Both are better than the other 3 you compare them to

What do you like the best when comparing these B listers to the A listers?

#21 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

No, you keep getting hung up on supply!
The demand is more than enough to make up for the supply in this case, or the market value would come down.
There could be 100,000 TZ's made, but if there are 150,000 people that want one....

Right. I see the demand. But what about it makes it 7x more desirable?

Quoted from Rarehero:

Also theme. People have way more nostalgic love for Addams & TZ

Yeah theme could be a big one. I agree that the 'universal-ness of TAF helped it be as popular as it was in it's original run. And maybe what helped TZ but really the depth is what keeps it interesting to people now. Back in it's day it was a flop because it was too deep, ha. Sometimes the biggest flaw can help make something immortal....

#22 5 years ago

addams and TZ are pure pat lawlor goodness. 2 of the best games period. Awesome theme integration and perfect balance of retro and fun with awesome sounds and play.

#23 5 years ago

It seems to me that it all comes down to individual preference. I have TZ and TAF, but find that I prefer the machines I grew up playing (i.e., Fireball, Wizard) than the DMD games I own.

Greg

#24 5 years ago
Quoted from Hawk007:

addams and TZ are pure pat lawlor goodness. 2 of the best games period. Awesome theme integration and perfect balance of retro and fun with awesome sounds and play.

PL is pretty amazing. I love me some FH and Whirlwind!!!

#25 5 years ago
Quoted from swanng:

It seems to me that it all comes down to individual preference. I have TZ and TAF, but find that I prefer the machines I grew up playing (i.e., Fireball, Wizard) than the DMD games I own.
Greg

Lucky duck......I have a friend who is really into gottlieb EMs....he has a TONNE of them......much easier to amass

#26 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

The market price is the market price for a reason. This is always the case. There are no exceptions.
As to why TZ and TAF are worth so much more than Congo, JM, and WCS, it's because TZ and TAF are widely considered to be two of the best pins ever made, and they are in high demand. The demand is high enough to overcome the high number of them that were made compared to the other 3.
Anything else is just personal preference. I love my TAF, and I think TZ is great too. Both are better than the other 3 you compare them to, although I've owned those 3 as well and they are great bang for the buck pins.

I dunno Rob, sounds like he's in the market for a TZ/TAF.

Love how some try to manipulate the market. ( I'm kidding).

#27 5 years ago

tz is number one or 2 always for a reason it's a killer game. taf is also great but if I could have jst one tz is it.

#28 5 years ago

By the way I own both!!!

#29 5 years ago
Quoted from swanng:

It seems to me that it all comes down to individual preference.

Always does. I've never understood the purpose of limiting yourself to "one kind of game." But I don;t understand a lot of things, like the fascination with speed or whatever else comes up. But I don't have to, plenty of games to go around for everyone.

#30 5 years ago
Quoted from agodfrey:

I guess my REAL question is why do you guys like them? What draws you in and makes you feel it's that much more of a game?

This sounds like a great question, but at the end of the day the answer will not help you in any way. To answer your question, absolutely have to play each game as much as possible. After 20+ games on each machine the question will be answered for you. I can tell you all day long why I think Metallica is one of the greatest bands of all time and that their music is worth $100 per song, but you have to listen to the music yourself and decide on your own how much the music is worth to you.

For me TAF is worth $6k or more any day of the week. But a lot of that opinion is based on the sentimental value it has for me in addition to how fun it is to play. I grew up playing this game and it was the first game I purchased so it is hard to place a value on it. I have never played Congo (not sure why), so its value is much much lower for me. I don't care how fun you say it is, until I play it and get my own feel for the game, it isn't worth very much.

Bottom line - save up your quarters and go play some pinball.

#31 5 years ago
Quoted from Snowyetti:

tz is number one or 2 always for a reason it's a killer game. taf is also great but if I could have jst one tz is it.

OK...well can someone talk about why its killer, why its top of the tops, what it has over that b titles. Talk about why you keep coming back to it, why it was worth 2-3 b titles.

#32 5 years ago
Quoted from Krankypants:

This sounds like a great question, but at the end of the day the answer will not help you in any way.

Thanks it is subjective. Like trying to take hold of the wind. Like trying to remember your dreams.

#33 5 years ago

BTW...I've played both of these games way way way more than 20 times. These were my golden age games. That and T2...but we ain't talkin about t2 are we..ha

#34 5 years ago

Maybe I should have asked why is PL so damn good??

#35 5 years ago

If you can handle the soccer theme WCS94 is one of the most under-rated games out there. JM is great but not recommended unless your handy with the steel!

#36 5 years ago
Quoted from Hawk007:

addams and TZ are pure pat lawlor goodness

I just happen to be re-listening to the Pat Lawlor interview on TOP Cast while I was reading this post.

#37 5 years ago
Quoted from agodfrey:

OK...well can someone talk about why its killer, why its top of the tops, what it has over that b titles. Talk about why you keep coming back to it, why it was worth 2-3 b titles.

I dont know that it is something you can put into words, they are just fun to play. When you go to a show they stay busy while the b titles might be open.
As far as adding them to your collection I guess its a compromise between budget and space. Now that I am out of space I am much pickier about what I would add.

#38 5 years ago

Oh yea..Love me some Pat lawlor! Whirlwind, addams,road show, funhouse,family guy,earthshaker,TZ All games that will never leave the collection.

#39 5 years ago

I have owned tz 4 times and Addams a couple I love the tv show tz had a beautiful huo example but everytime I get one I remember why I sold the last the game is not enough fun for what it cost and I am a big fan of the theme!!!But I always feel I would rather have 2-3 games vs 1 or a nib for around the same price but everyone has their own personal opppion really depends how much you enjoy the games and how much disposable income you have to tie up in games.If money was out of the picture tz and Addams would both be keepers it really depends on what you can afford and what you see as a good game vs value

#40 5 years ago

With out trying I ended up with 3 Pat Lawlors. One of which being TAF. I didn't get any of them because he made them or because a lot of people liked them. I got them purely because I liked them. I went through the whole "I can get this game for X amount or these 2 games for the same amount" Sometimes the 2 for 1 won (JD and Mario) and sometimes the one won TAF

#41 5 years ago

Who can really say what it is persay that draws those who love TAF/TZ to love them? It's the full integration of all the elements of pinball working in a great way. If it were obvious why they are loved by so many than you'd be able to make every game as fun as these, no? I haven't played enough TZ to decide on it but I do love TAF.. such a good job on sounds and the variety of goals for the rooms. Ball times aren't outrageously long (at least for me).. takes a while to master (again, maybe just me). Taf actually is interesting to me in that it's not totally covered with toys.. the layout flows really good and seems somewhat open vs TZ where they really crammed a lot of stuff on the PF, albiet it's a Wide body but both seem to be compared quite a bit.

#42 5 years ago
Quoted from agodfrey:

OK...well can someone talk about why its killer, why its top of the tops, what it has over that b titles. Talk about why you keep coming back to it, why it was worth 2-3 b titles.

Once again, theme.

The average pinball buyer who maybe buys 1 game....what's a "cool" 90's game? Addams Family! They don't want Congo or JM in their house. I have Congo - when non-pin people come over they're like "Congo!?!? WTF!" ...they see Addams and go "COOOOOL!"

Theme makes games more desirable. More people want it, less available for sale, price goes up. Supply and demand, easy as that.

#43 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Once again, theme.
I have Congo - when non-pin people come over they're like "Congo!?!? WTF!"

Ha!

I don't remember the Addams Family movie being all that great though. So I'm not sure how the theme gets non-pin people to want to play it.

#44 5 years ago

Yeah...theme does help a lot. But us pinheads know that game play keeps ya coming back.

#45 5 years ago
Quoted from phillymadison:

Ha!
I don't remember the Addams Family movie being all that great though. So I'm not sure how the theme gets non-pinpeople to want to play it.

Shit it was not as good as STREET FIGHTER the movie. That was Raul Julies best EVER performance lol

#46 5 years ago

Maybe a good question for some of the old blood here.. Would you buy it today? I know some of you out there got your game for 2k. Now that it's way more...would you dive in? Its easy to say its worth it when you're on the right side of the coin

#47 5 years ago

Honestly Addams is realistically worth 3250 nib. I would rather have a new stern than a dusty ol game I kicked the shit out of in my youth.

#48 5 years ago

But you're right about the theme helping a lot. A theme could make a not so great game better. Where I am Super Mario is the biggest hit because it's Mario.

#49 5 years ago

New York...the town of Mario!

#50 5 years ago

Yes! (the answer to the op's question) Every time I play my TZ I am reminded of why I first fell in love with it. TAF too, but I don't own one so I'll keep this to TZ - I would buy a TAF too if my situation allowed it. That said, I also own a WCS94, which I also love. When I evaluate my lineup and how much I paid for each game it makes sense. While I love WCS94 and think it's a great game, it doesn't captivate me like TZ does. It doesn't have the same "wow that was really cool" feeling that TZ gives me. For that reason, I wouldn't pay as much for a WCS94 as I would for a TZ. There are many great "B" titles out there, but (for most) there's a reason the "A" list title command the price they do. I'm not saying that any "B" titles aren't awesome, they just aren't quite as awesome as those titles that seem to draw everyone to them like the TZ AFM MM TAF etc. I say enjoy them all!

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