IMHO main differences are with Lamps & Switches. Williams do use a Lamp matrix where Gottlieb has one transistor for each lamp. For Switches I'm not sure if the Matrix is compatible, I know that Bally & Gottlieb have different concepts as Gottlieb do strobe with 'low' signal, resulting in different placements for the diodes in the Matrix between Bally & Gottlieb AmokSolderer can you explain how Williams do sense the switches?
For the solenoids I see no problems, For Displays you have to use Williams Displays.

cobra18t If you do not like edge connectors and do not have the Gottlieb driverboards you may think about 'LISY_Home'; just have a look at http://www.lisy.dev
LISY_Home is a 'LISY80 clone', so the switches will work out of the box and for Displays & Solenoids I have designed a driverboard.
For Lamps I do not have a Lampdriverboard yet, as for my LISY_Home project I plan to use LEDs.
You can use LISY_Home with MPF but as a LISY80 clone, it is also possible to let run system80(B) pinmame romsets.
However keep in mind that LISY_Home is in early testing phase ...

hope that helps

Happy to help when it comes to questions about LISY, can you give a bit more details on what you want to achieve?
If you have a System1 plattform, LISY1 would IMHO be the best choice.
It could work with pinmame OR with MPF via the integrated MPF Server.
With APC you are more or less restricted to Williams Hardware.
I have also created a more flexible plattform called 'LISY_Home', maybe thats what you are looking for?
https://lisy.dev/lisy_home.html

From my experience with LISY most people want to have a 'plug&play' solution or at least a 'Kit' with the PCB and all components included, and they do not want to read documentation A 'quick win' with basic functionality of the board is important, then in a second step 10% or so of the people start to read documentation and will try the advanced features.
Also SMD components do scare people, I do have only ONE SMD component on my LISY board and most people would like to get rid of it.

But I don't think that you can solve that without putting a lot of additional effort in your project.

My personal wish list is (in that order)
- put some DIP switches on the board ( e.g. to start direct with LISY/pinamme without the need to select that either in the source or via the menu)
- integrate LISY onto the board, connected e.g. via I2C
- split the APC board into different 'variations', so that the connectors fit with the original

With all of that you would have a minimal 'plug&play' solution.
O course I need to finish the pinmame integration, which I promise I will do, at least for System9, ASAP

In normal cases JLCPCB does calculate the board dimensions from the gerber data.
But same issue here with the current Gerber data (0.12) but I remember with an older version it worked before.
I will contact Amoksolderer and ask him if he can check

In the meantime watch my video of the first game with my Williams Comet (System9) controlled by LISY_Mini and APC, more to come ...

I had big problems with the (unix) sound drivers in pinmame. It works for windows but I never got a good sound output with Linux/Raspberry.
Looks like no one works on the Unix part of pinmame anymore, I did an update on the ALSA sounddrivers a year ago, but still poor sound.

If you are interested in the code, LISY is part of official pinmame code: https://sourceforge.net/p/pinmame/code/HEAD/tree/trunk/
Current coding you can find here: https://github.com/bontango/lisy-src-5.x
Once in a while I do an update of the LISY pinmame code on sourceforge

Yes, and also a PHAT soundcard, same result with pinmame, however soundquality in general ( playing wav & mp3 files) is good

LISY is using a 'fake' video driver, no X windows ..

I'm also looking to replace wiringPI library, as it is deprecated and does not support 100% PI4 in last version, which library are you going to use?

Sounds interisting, do you hae some details where to start? I did a quick search on the sources for 'Pinsound' but with no result

Yes, I use a 'PHAT' DAC board with LISY, as said sound in general is good when playing wav or mp3 files, its just bad with pinmame.

Same effect here, even with the LISY 'fake' video driver without X. I don't think its an performance/overhead problem but
more a timing problem from the pinmame code. From what I saw in the unix soundcode (which is different from the windows one and VERY old)
sound timing is somewhat dependent on the video timing.
I spend a week or so to clean that up, but gave up at the end ( I'm not a soundspecialist ..)
I would guess with another video driver ( not X and not the LISY fake one) it might be better, but I did not test that

it's worth a try...
I experimented with a similar call "sound_stream_update" in unix/video.c but with no luck
Plwease let me know if you find something, happy to try it with my LISY image ...

Switch numbering with Gottlieb is a bit different, the switch number is always Strobe plus 10*Return, meaning starting with zero and there is no switch 8,9,18,19, ...
in addition Gottlieb using a 'low pulse' to drive the strobes , where Bally (and Williams?) use high level for a strobe.

Hello, any feedback on that topic, were you able to do the testing?
I still think that it is because of the old soundcode in LINUX which need to be updated,
if it is the case, you should have same problems in your non PI configuration.

Hi Jimmy,
thanks for offering your help, I did update the alsa driver already for my 'LISY' image but with no luck.
You can find my code here: https://github.com/bontango/lisy-src-5.x
Alsa code in /src/unix/sysdep/dsp-drivers/alsa.c

In general sound works, but it looks like it is a timing problem, sounds are sometimes veeeery slow.
From what I saw the sound queue is filled together with the refresh routine of the video driver,
so I assume that with X-Windows, and with my (ugly hacked) LISY fake video driver, timing is not optimal

any help appreciated

Update:
saw the post from Dude too late

sounds like there is a solution, will dig into that and let you know.

Ralf

IMHO it is mainly the OS, Linux is not a real time OS!
Thats the reason why I choosed PIC Controllers for the time critical section with LISY.

But you can patch the Kernel, have a look at: https://rt.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Main_Page

same for me ... and about the costs: it's sometimes even cheaper to get the full populated board from China then with buying the components and do the soldering yourself.

Of course with option 3 it is a lot of work todo for amoksolderer ...

wow, lot of work

So this is a Gottlieb driver Board without Edge Connectors, or do you do a 'conversion' here .. ?

Yes:

B3F-1000 (resized).png

Thanks
For the next release you may think about to let it preassembled too, JLC has 'Tacticel Switches' in their library
https://lcsc.com/product-detail/Tactile-Switches_XKB-Enterprise-TS-1187A-C-D-A_C318888.html/?href=jlc-SMT

Just to not that Firepower (System6) is not supported (yet) by LISY.
Had a look to the pinmame code, which is very similar to System7, so implmentation 'should' not be that difficult.
Let me know when you are ready and I will provide a beta version for your firepower.

Beta support for System3, 4, 6 and 6A on APC with latest LISY version available!
https://lisy.dev/version_5x.html
Tested 'on the bench' only, as I do not own any Williams pinball of this type.
Handle with care, feedback welcome!

Yes, first APC 3.0 support came with 5.27-3, take a look to the version history
https://lisy.dev/version_5x.html
Best use latest LISY and APC version.

looks like the description of the SYS6 display structure is wrong in pinmame s6.c
It does not match with what is stated in "struct core_dispLayout s6_6digit_disp[]"

I adapted LISY structure to the core structure, display log looks better now.

matiou please try my latest update and let me know if it solved your display problem

http://www.flipperkeller.de/lisy/lisy_update_5_27_38.tgz

Yes, I did it in the past. However you need to copy it within Linux, the nvram files are not
on the Windows partition but mounted under /piname in Linux.

Will see if I can do some 'LISY magic' tomorrow to fix the bug

I updated the advanced button handling, can you please check?
http://www.flipperkeller.de/lisy/lisy_update_APC.tgz

Thanks Grangeomatic and Snux helped a lot to understand the problem.

I have updated LISY a bit to allign more to the PROC code (there was a 'smooth paramter set to '1' with PROC;
which was set to the default value '2' with LISY). Amoksolderer will test this LISY version and see if it helps.

If not we may go to the 'drive_patter' method on Arduino

Will report about the outcome ASAP ...

Interisting, I though I would need to do adjustments on the second line, because LISY handles Simpsons
internally as 'SYS11C' which has a different segment layout on the second line.
AmokSolderer is that something you correct on APC side?

When you connect the switchmatrix please check if you can enter the Data East diagnostics, from the pinmame source
the 'advance switch' is handlded inverse compared to SYS11, so might not work at the moment.

Great
So I will add all 'early' DE games to next LISY test image.
Can I use the same display settings as 'SYS11A' for the DE games with "(2x) 7 Digit A/N (2x) 7 Digit Numeric" display?

see post #651

Looks good

What I saw in the pinmame source is the following code:

/*Set coin door inputs, differs between S11 & DE*/
if (locals.deGame) {
pia_set_input_ca1(S11_PIA2, !core_getSw(DE_SWADVANCE));
pia_set_input_cb1(S11_PIA2, core_getSw(DE_SWUPDN));
}
else {
pia_set_input_ca1(S11_PIA2, core_getSw(S11_SWADVANCE));
pia_set_input_cb1(S11_PIA2, core_getSw(S11_SWUPDN));
}

So looks like the advance switch in DE games has inverse logic compared to williams and
I need to adjust the handling within LISY for DE games.

Did you try the DE diagnostic menue, does it work as expected?

AmokSolderer you may need to adjust the advance switch also in APC!?

From a 'LISY point of view' you need my latest testimage and select the right game.
https://lisy.dev/swrep/LISY_Image/test/
Game #73 for Laser War, complete gamelist here: https://lisy.dev/swrep/LISY_Image/test/cfg/lisyminigames.csv
Don't think you need special settings on APC side ...

As Raspberry PI is becoming rare, I created an Image for the Banana PI M2 Zero
https://lisy.dev/lisy_embedded.html
You can also use one of the 'embedded' images to speed up boot time of your Raspberry PI Zero
All images tested 'on the bench' only, pls. let me know in case of problems.
Have fun

If it is only to add the lines posted by ThatOneDude I can add the code to the 'official' LISY/pinmame source and make a new LISY image, no problem.
However I would need volunteer(s) for the Teensy and testing part ...