As far as I'm aware, a redemption model is pretty much the only way for a stand-alone arcade to make it with nothing else supporting it. Even then, it's a precarious endeavor. The location needs to be ideal, along with a good selection of games and prizes.

Redemption games have a gambling aspect to them, which is why it sort of works. With vids/pins, there's no rewards/tickets/prizes.

With a bar, the activity helps support the alcohol, and the alcohol helps support the activity. People stay longer and spend more when there's something to do.

Contact Doc Mac at Galloping Ghost Arcade, the world's Largest Arcade located in Brookfield Illinois. There will Never be alcohol served there. His business has been going strong and growing for 13 years. It can be done.

Real world numbers. Top earning teddy bear crane $2000 a week. Many average $500 a week or more. If you have five teddy bear cranes with five different products they ALL will earn $500 each. Top earning redemption (ticket) game $1200 a week. Many average $500 a week or more (not skee ball). You can have eight or ten that earn at this level.

Good earning pinballs can get greater than $200 a week, but only the best machine. If you have five pinballs there will be many that earn $80 a week or less... unless you become the hottest pinball place in town and develop a following.

One year numbers:

Crane = $26,000. (If your crane is $2000 a week, $104,000.)
Redemption (ticket game) = $26,000

Pinball (average $100) = $5200.

Arcade games I haven't been in the market for a while... we were setting gamerooms that the best driving game was $250 a week, the best shooting game or other game was $200 or less. Think of $10,400 to $13,000.

Every game room is different, and it largely depends upon foot traffic. Top locations with tons of people walking by the arcade are going to have very expensive rent structures. A big metal building out on the outskirts of town won't ever get enough people driving to an arcade experience to become viable... you'd have to have other attractions.

Exceptions and outliers... yes. There will be phenomenal stories of wonderful arcades that make better numbers than what I've indicated here. There will be ten failed businesses for every one of those exceptional stories who went out of business because they didn't generate even these levels of income.

I've been out of the market for a while. These numbers might not be accurate in todays economy... but I'd be willing to bet that they are close.

My suggestion for you if you do it in the foreseeable future would be to move out of Wyoming. I googled least populated states...

Wyoming - 576,851
Vermont - 643,077
Alaska - 733,391
North Dakota - 779,094
South Dakota - 886,667
Delaware - 989,948
Montana - 1,084,225
Rhode Island - 1,097,379
Maine - 1,362,359
New Hampshire- 1,377,529

A wise man once said, Black Knight doesn't pay the bills, Johnny Black pays the bills.

How do people sleep at night swindling children out of their $ with crane games?

Pretty soundly.

I mean, the kids get something out of it - win or lose. My kids play them all of the time. It's the thrill of the hunt. Are they disappointed when they lose? Sure. It's my job as a parent to keep them from playing it 20 times in a row. Once in a while, they do get lucky.

That being said, we did drop like $100 on crane games when we were at Universal Studios. In a single day. Damn it was fun. lol.

We've played a lot of those cranes, meaning our 9 and 8 year old kids. Some of the crane jaws are configured, not all, to slacken so the prize almost always falls out before getting to the drop box. A ripoff. In a liquor license establishment banning youngsters at least it's not ripping off little kids.

Because we’re not swindling anybody, if their parents enable their children to play tons of games of chance, that’s not my problem.
Parents and guardians are where the money comes from. Little kids running in all the time asking (and sometimes demanding) money.

A lot of my operator friends will mention crane and little kid games make the most money. "Knobby ball" machines where there is a winner every time kills, but also needs to be refilled frequently. These aren't stand-alone arcades but placed in a location. I don't see how a stand-alone arcade would work these days unless you're buying out an old Chuck E Cheese, and plan on it being mostly a money laundering scheme through the cartel. Oh wait, that was Ozark. Either way, don't see it working. We have a large bowling alley here that could host an arcade, but they serve alcohol there.

Besides, you'd be getting further away from Casper's most notorious gothic wizard. You don't want that power corrupting your business.

Even Chuck E. Cheese sells beer.

I would only go to check out a new release machine or one that is "rare" and difficult to find. I usually consume a beer or six when i visit these establishments.

The markup on alcohol and "simple" bar food im guessing is where the money is made.

This is just my opinion.

Your comments get less crazy daily. Weird.

I went there last in 2010 for my friends sons b-day. It was a bunch of 25 year olds with one child (The bday boy). They had to screen us to ensure we were there for the bday. It was definitely a wierd vibe, but good to know they have beer haha.

Do what Hooters does and add some stripper poles I'll hang out all day & play games

For me it's not so much about alcohol, it's more about getting good food. I stay away from Chuck E Cheese, Dave and Buster and Round 1 a new player in the bay area from Japan, bringing great Japanese arcade games to the Bay, because all of them have terrible food.

With good food, and some TVs to watch Football on Sundays, I can be there all day with the kids.

He's an exception to the rule plus his gimmick is having extremely rare machines on the floor for people to play. Most places won't have that kind of gimmick that makes them a pilgrimage for enjoyers of the hobby to seek out. Yeah...some places do make it, but its extremely extremely tough.

Says a lot about you

GG has over 800 games (arcade/pinball) and charges $20-$25 fee to enter. Usually every time I go there, all the games I want to play are broken.

So I guess the depressing reality is that these games can no longer be profitable without exposing kids to one of two very serious problems causing addiction and suffering in this country. Bummer. We need a pinball parlor with a recreational dispensary built in. We all might flip better

My business is not a arcade...but a old bar/dance hall (100 years this year) our Pool and juke box operator doesn't do pins. So i have to buy my own. I prefer to buy project pins from the late 60s-thru-late 80s...No DMDs or or newer (cant afford them anyway).

I have to service them myself so basically its my personal collection of pins available for the public to play. At 25¢ a pop theres no real ROI, but its a niche market.

Nowhere around locally can you go to play 40-50 year old pins in my neck of the woods. I havn't been doing this a year yet...but word of mouth is getting around and more ppl are coming out specifically to ck. out what i have and to regress back and relive their youth for a few quarters...and drink some cold beer while at it.

I guess I don't understand - are the places that just house arcade games and pinball games as their sole attraction for a flat fee no longer working?

Why not combine the two? A redemption bar.

Put some or those mini-bottles from airlines in a crane game and bingo… huge profits.

Until the cops show up.

The thought of one of those games where you use the water gun to shoot into the mouth of a clown to inflate a balloon would be interesting… just with booze coming out of the gun and the kids parent instead of the clown.

Pinball Gallery in Malvern PA has been making it work for over a decade

https://pinballgallery.net/

"over 100 pinballs". I think to be successful and not do anything else it has to be a huge collection to be "the place" to go.
Otherwise the coop way is pretty decent, you are limited to 2-3 days/nights a week plus events and could do food/pop/byob? if licensing works.

I do a small route w/ a bar owner and a friend, it has been over 2 years and just NOW we are starting to see actual good pinball coindrop/traffic. We only have 8 games and 7 are spike 2 w/ leaderboard. Being a bar only thought since his kitchen is empty sucks. If it was a brewery/taproom with family friendly vibe, food and such would be ideal. A "bar" is not all that friendly to families looking to play but in WI kids are allowed w/ an adult.

We have two arcades in Madison with "pay for entry, games set on free play" model.

At one place, video games are set on free play, but pinball is on tokens. You have to pay to get to the arcades, but don't need to if you want only pinball. Nerdhaven Acade

The other place is free play for all pinball and video games with an entry fee. Geeks Mania Arcade

Both have been open for several years, the second for much longer than the first, but both seem to be doing alright. I haven't been to either place recently though. No alcohol served at either place. Can come and go as you please.

This is about me. No reflection on other peoples experiences or how they operate.

My arcade is without alcohol. Alcohol doesn't guarantee success. Bars go broke too.

Only exposure for me was my Mother owned a 3.2 bar in Northeast Minneapolis in the mid 1960's.

In a life time in the industry and over 51 years for my arcade. I've always been out of step with mainstream coin op.

The manager of the largest arcade in Minneapolis ( now long gone ) once told me over 25 years ago that I do everything backwards.

When the video game fad was on and most places were on tokens, I stuck with quarters. People asked why. I told them with quarters I have to earn your money. Good clean working equipment. Friendly service. With tokens I made the sale once you bought the tokens. Five cents worth of brass for a dollar. I don't care if you play my games or not. I never thought tokens was a way to treat customers. Still on quarters, and paper money today.

Up until my internet presence around 1995, I never advertised or even had a listed phone number. Which strangely kept me out of the gangs traveling from city to city breaking into the hot fighting games and stealing the board sets in the early 1990s, they didn't know my business existed.

In the mid 2000s when everything was tanking with the economy and a couple years later the no smoking. Many times I looked over my equipment and thought of selling everything and going all redemption. I could never talk myself into it. It's kiddie gambling and dirty money, something I don't want to be involved in.

I can't say successful or profitable. There has been good years and bad years. Closed for Covid a couple years back was a real kick in the nuts. 48 years of history wiped out, so no idea when I'll be busy or not. And prior to that I was on a roll again, something I still haven't gotten back to.

If I was to point at one thing that has given my business it's longevity is that no matter what. I always work hard to do the best for my customers I can.

You walk in you are welcomed. When you leave I thank you, I've even chased people out in the parking lot to thank them If I missed them. You have trouble with a game it's fixed immediately, and credits or money refunded. Though I may threaten to call the pinball police if you broke it. The pinball police play hardball. They'll waterboard you.

This always makes me think of the last episode of the TV show Cheers series. After Norm leaves and Sam is reflecting on what he said and what Sam says to himself. I agree. "Boy I tell ya, I'm the luckiest son of a bitch on Earth".

LTG : )

Calling LTG to the stand.

As far as I know, he doesn't serve alcohol.

Doh! Beat me by a half a second.

Beat you by 27 seconds my friend !

LTG : )

Pinside must have a built in delay when I hit "send" now.

There is a 'payout ratio'. How often people win is carefully calculated.

Interestingly, just like Vegas, this has been EXTENSIVELY researched, with hundreds of thousands of data points (from weekly collection data).

People VALUE something more if they win it.

Wal-Mart sells a plush toy for $3.00. The teddy bear crane at the front of the store has almost exactly the same product. People will be FAR happier when they WIN the toy instead of purchasing the toy.

So here is the math: For a toy that people value at $3.00, if you let them win too often, the crane won't get played as much. They think 'I can win a toy anytime I want' and the crane won't make as much money through the coin slot... and there is a cost of toys going out of the crane, but mostly it's about getting as many plays as possible from people.

This is counter-intuitive, but is ABSOLUTELY true, proven with a lot of data. When people win more frequently than the 'optimal point', they don't revisit the crane as often.

Similarly, if people never win, they'll engage a certain amount of times, but will quickly decide to not play crane games anymore, or at least stop playing the crane that doesn't meet their expectations of being able to win.

It is FAR worse to not allow people to win toys than to allow people to win too often, but both ways you can set up the crane to make you less money.

The sweet spot for a toy that people value at $3.00, is exactly fifteen plays. At 50 cents a game, that's $7.50 in the cash box for a toy valued at $3.00.

At a dollar a play, the numbers are different. We are usually dealing with a perceived value of the toy of $6.00 or more, which changes the equation. I haven't been involved with this for a while, and right off the top of my head I don't know the exact payout ratio is for dollar cranes.

The point is this. People value things they win more than they value things they purchase. Smart crane operators will make sure you win exactly often enough to keep you coming back.

'Intermittent reward is the strongest motivator'.

Makes sense. In my small bowling alley location, there is a shitty crane that most operators scoff at. I bought the location from an older op in his 80s and it did okay. Nothing has been updated since around 2003.
I turned up the difficulty on that shitty crane and now you rarely win, and it has become the number 1 earner!!!

It used to be fairly easy to win, causing it to be empty most the time, and it made very little.
It’s bizarre to me that cranking the difficulty turned it into my big earner.

Rude to call us swindlers and insinuate we’re thieves because we provide a service to the public. Says a lot about yourself!

Nobody is held at gunpoint to play cranes. I actively TELL patrons what the payout percentage is! I don’t care, because I love pinball and arcades. Yet they get angry and demand tickets. “Why did Fish Tales not give me tickets?!? My little boy wants tickets!!! You’re a ripoff!” And they tell me that only old boomers play pinball, like that raging newbie on Pinside, lol.

“That crane will only payout every $65 bucks. You won’t win it”
“We’re gonna try our luck anyway, I love cranes!” And then it out-earns everything else.

Beer doesn’t cost $8 a pint to make. Bars make massive profit off them. Should they be ashamed because they aren’t charities? The general public is more than happy to waste money, that’s why we are in this mess in the first place!

If a kid is happy with their knobby ball that their parents spend $20 on, then why do you insist of ruining a child’s joy?

I still have some empty growlers and glass bottles laying around from the days I used to drink. Not more than 3 or 4 years ago.

Let’s see how some of those twin cities businesses are doing:

Closed
Closed
Closed
Closing
Closed
Closing….

What’s Brewing in San Antonio. Successful coffee shop and pinball location

That place is so cool. Great coffee tons of
Games.

I don’t run one, but have several near me that are an arcade model with zero alcohol:

Silverball arcade
Game Vault
Yestercades (3 locations)

I think their secret is having a wide range of games to play.

Mr. Munch sells weed out of the kitchen if you know who to ask.

You can't get alcohol without food. Straight alcohol only is a tough permit to get based on how many are granted per county and per year. The need for other revenue depends on rent costs. Portal Pinball in Atlanta area ran without booze for I think 10 years, but has since moved and got the whole 9 yards now.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/are-pinball-bars-profitable-good-business-sense

The model for this to work is a kids amusement center. Some combination of ticket redemption games, prize cranes, other stuff like mini golf or laser tag or VR. On a card system where everything costs like 385 points so nobody knows what they're spending. And your standard mass-market pizza with $2 worth of ingredients for $24.99. There's a number of these places around various towns that I know of (and towns that don't already have a Chuck e Cheese or Dave & Busters.) Some sell bottled or tap beer but that's a small part of the business and it'd work without it.

My friend runs a very profitable arcade. It’s free play with an entry charge. The key is to have a large variety of games and spaces to rent out for parties. He has over 100 games. Pinball cannot be the main attraction, you’ll never succeed unless in a large city. You have to offer many different activities and some unique games. He focuses on families

I should add. When the video game fad bubble burst. Being on quarters kept me out of the token wars.

Places would sell 5 for a dollar, then ten, for a dollar, then 20 for a dollar. Etc etc. They didn't realize this pushed them off the cliff quicker.

LTG : )