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(Topic ID: 277148)

Apple vs Epic Studios who’s side do you support?


By rai

38 days ago



Topic Stats

  • 32 posts
  • 20 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 35 days ago by gdonovan
  • No one calls this topic a favorite

You

Topic poll

“Who’s side are you on?”

  • Team Apple 19 votes
    49%
  • Team Epic 20 votes
    51%

(39 votes)

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#1 38 days ago

Epic implementing a pay structure to bypass the Apple store commissions, this led to Apple removing Fortnight.

I realize Epic wants to keep all the profits, wants to use Apple’s services for free. I’m on the side of Apple, it’s almost like Coke would say to a supermarket sell my product but you don’t get to make any profits from it.

#2 38 days ago

I'm on the side of Apple too. Maybe 30% is a little steep for the profit sharing, but Epic signed a contract. Epic should keep in mind all the money that they have made by Apple allowing them to use their services.

I do wish they would solve this quickly. My kids and I enjoy playing a little Fortnite together. Although we can still play on our Apple devices, it just isn't the same.

16
#3 38 days ago

I have trouble caring about this, two obscenely rich companies fighting. The underlying principle may matter but neither of these particular players are sympathetic.

#4 38 days ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

I have trouble caring about this, two obscenely rich companies fighting. The underlying principle may matter but neither of these particular players are sympathetic.

If Epic wins, every developer will follow suit.

Apple is public companies so anyone can share in their success.

#5 38 days ago

Apple will win. You use their service you pay their price.
If I want to sell my product on Amazon, you realize Amazon gets a cut, right? So does eBay. Nobody is doing shit for free these days, unless you’re Robin which is incredible.
Bless Pinside

#6 38 days ago

It's an interesting debate, and something that smaller developers have been fighting, before a heavyweight like Epic chimed in.

#7 38 days ago
Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:

Apple will win. You use their service you pay their price.
If I want to sell my product on Amazon, you realize Amazon gets a cut, right? So does eBay.

That's not the point. It's about monopolistic and anti-trust behaviour.

There are alternatives to selling online. If you don't like Amazon or eBay terms there are tens if not hundreds of other options.

Apple wants to be the only way of accepting payments on the iPhone and they want to charge 30%.

Today if you donate $10 to Pinside through the site, Robin probably gets to keep around 97% of that (with 3% going to the payment processor). If Robin had an iOS Pinside app, Apple would take 30% of that $10.

(BTW Thanks! A good reminder for me to donate.)

#8 38 days ago
Quoted from rai:

Epic implementing a pay structure to bypass the Apple store commissions, this led to Apple removing Fortnight.
I realize Epic wants to keep all the profits, wants to use Apple’s services for free. I’m on the side of Apple, it’s almost like Coke would say to a supermarket sell my product but you don’t get to make any profits from it.

I wouldn't say it is this simple. Apple intentionally locks down it's platform so developers have no choice but to use the app store. It is their environment, but they don't allow free market for other environments to exist on their platfoem

Imagine if Microsoft did this with Windows. You use there environment, why shouldn't you pay Microsoft everytime you download something off of the internet?

Apple intentionally stifles competition all in the name of their Brand.

With that being said, I think you should pay a small fee to apple if you choose to use their environment. But, you also have to keep in mind other companies like Netflix are already bypassing the Apple store policies.

#9 38 days ago
Quoted from BobSacamano:

That's not the point. It's about monopolistic and anti-trust behaviour.
There are alternatives to selling online. If you don't like Amazon or eBay terms there are tens if not hundreds of other options.
Apple wants to be the only way of accepting payments on the iPhone and they want to charge 30%.
Today if you donate $10 to Pinside through the site, Robin probably gets

What about Nintendo? Don’t they have a monopoly or PlayStation?

I don’t think you are correct about paying for stuff or donating to Pinside. Apple doesn’t take 30% cut for that.

#10 38 days ago
Quoted from rai:

Apple doesn’t take 30% cut for that.

He is saying Apple WOULD, if you donated through a Pinside App.

#11 38 days ago

I use an Amazon Kindle to read books. There is an iPhone app that you can use to read but Amazon has made the choice that you cannot purchase books from the app to avoid Apple taking their cut. I need to use the actual Kindle device or go on the website to purchase a book. Easy workaround.

#12 38 days ago
Quoted from DylanFan71:

I use an Amazon Kindle to read books. There is an iPhone app that you can use to read but Amazon has made the choice that you cannot purchase books from the app to avoid Apple taking their cut. I need to use the actual Kindle device or go on the website to purchase a book. Easy workaround.

This is it in a nutshell. If Epic wants the Apple generated revenues, they either need to offload purchases to the Epic website, or even easier, just change the price of VBucks to reflect the 30% apple share. I would wager a majority of Apple users would pay the increased fee on Fortnite, without even knowing they were paying more than those not using Apple for the same service.

#13 38 days ago

Apple is wrong. Anyone that disagrees you need to rethink it. If you called Sears on a AT&T network phone would AT&T get part of the sale back in the day? Apple was also fighting Netflix to get 30% of the monthy fee if you signed up using a iphone forever. Think of that.

#14 38 days ago
Quoted from rai:

What about Nintendo? Don’t they have a monopoly or PlayStation?

I agree with you that game developers have always had to pay to be "licensed" on major platforms like Nintendo's 8-bit NES. Unlike computer software, where you could just release a game to be played on any home computer as long as you had a distribution method (mail-order, shareware, BBS, CompUSA/Babbages, etc). I want to say that I've read that current platforms like the Playstation and XBOX platforms also take 30% from digital download sales.

This is Epic's argument:

Epic argued that Apple is a monopolist in two respects: its control of app distribution on the App Store and its requirement that users pay through its payment processing system.

And Epic argues that because Apple has monopoly power, antitrust laws say Apple can’t use that power to shut competition out of the market for either the app store or the payment system. Epic does, however, acknowledge that Apple created value with the App Store.

“To be clear, Epic does not seek to force Apple to provide distribution and processing services for free, nor does Epic seek to enjoy Apple’s services without paying for them. What Epic wants is the freedom not to use Apple’s App Store or IAP (in-app purchase), and instead to use and offer competing service,” Epic said.

Apple has asserted its store isn’t a separate product, but Epic argues app distribution is an “aftermarket” derived from the primary market of the smartphone platform. Epic says the courts should view the relevant antitrust market as the aftermarket, which has a unique brand and a unique market and is not part of a larger single product. Epic isn’t challenging Apple’s rights on the smartphone platform, only in the aftermarket, where Epic alleges Apple is behaving in a monopolistic manner. It argues that Apple cuts off choices (such as downloading apps from websites) that are available to consumers in other markets.

If I read that correctly, Epic is asserting that their mobile phone games are more similar to PC software (discovery, distribution, and payments) than closed-systems like the Playstation and Nintendo networks where you rely on the existing infrastructure.

If my explanation is not clear enough, breaking it down in bullet points:

1) Epic doesn't need the Apple Store to promote Fortnight or to host their game for download. Everyone knows about Fortnight, and Epic could easily host the software binaries for the game on their own servers.

2) Epic doesn't need the Apple Store to handle payments because they have already built their own payment infrastructure and have even built their own "app store" where game developers can sell their games on the Epic platform if they want to.


Imagine if every software application on your Windows or Mac computer had to be downloaded and purchased through a Windows or Apple "App Store" instead of how it's been handled for the past 40+ years of personal computing? Don't get me wrong, both Apple and Microsoft are attempting to do this right now with their respective stores, but fortunately they haven't locked users out of installing apps downloaded through any non-Microsoft/Apple website on the internet... AT LEAST THEY HAVEN'T YET!

Quoted from rai:

I don’t think you are correct about paying for stuff or donating to Pinside. Apple doesn’t take 30% cut for that.

30% commission for "in-app purchases" is right in the Apple App Store terms and conditions: https://www.apple.com/ios/app-store/principles-practices/#:~:text=Developers%20earn%2070%25%20of%20sales,Apple%20collects%20a%2030%25%20commission.

Now if Pinside had an app, they could always solicit "payments" directly through their website (like Netflix and other selected companies are allowed to do), but if Apple noticed that and decided to take action, they could ban the Pinside app from their App Store.

Furthermore: Imagine if Google/Apple required every single donation (or credit card payment) made by using their web browser (Chrome/Safari) to go through the respective app store instead of using whichever payment processing service Robin decided to use? I wonder how far away from that we are?


Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with Google/Apple/Microsoft providing those services (app/game discovery, distribution, payments), but they shouldn't be allowed to LOCK OUT other options that already exist and have existed for the last 40+ years of personal computing.

#15 38 days ago

ps. I wish there were more choices other than Apple/Google for smartphones. Both companies suck.

Anyone have experience with a different smartphone OS? I've been hoping for a phone with an OS that I could use as both a home computer and a phone. Over the years I've watched various efforts, but none have really caught on.

https://itsfoss.com/open-source-alternatives-android/

#16 38 days ago

Wheres the poll? My vote is for Epic. My kids play fortnite alot and ive spent ALOT on the game for them. Its nice that vbucks price went down because of this. I wonder how much Nintendo and Sony are making since the prices are the same on both those platforms as using Epic on PC. My kids play fortnite on Switch, PS4, PC, and Android.

#17 38 days ago

30% is an insane fee. I might side with Apple if they were more reasonable but 30%? No way.

#18 38 days ago
Quoted from ralphwiggum:

they either need to offload purchases to the Epic website

They can't - this is why Apple cut them off. They were offering purchased through the app through their own website, bypassing Apple's fees.

#19 38 days ago
Quoted from Coyote:

They can't - this is why Apple cut them off. They were offering purchased through the app through their own website, bypassing Apple's fees.

I didnt catch that part of it, I thought the issue was purchasing VBucks within Fortnite itself, on an Apple device..... So, how does Amazon get away with the same thing on Apple's store? (Buying Ebooks from Amazon, and then reading them on the Kindle app on Apple)...

#20 38 days ago
Quoted from ralphwiggum:

So, how does Amazon get away with the same thing on Apple's store? (Buying Ebooks from Amazon, and then reading them on the Kindle app on Apple)...

Apple makes an exclusion if you pay for content with a premium subscription such as Amazon Prime. 277FC92E-FE78-45F0-97E9-7E1525144B8F (resized).png

#21 38 days ago

There was some friction between Apple saying wordpress had to install a paid feature in their free app, but they backtracked on that:

https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/21/21396316/apple-wordpress-in-app-purchase-tax-update-store

https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/22/21397424/apple-wordpress-apology-iap-free-ios-app

On the android platform, it's not just one app store. There are various 3rd-party stores available other than just google play. So, there is some flexibility.

https://www.androidauthority.com/best-app-stores-936652/

The issue is that on apple, it's just the apple store and that's it. No 3rd-party options. Apple's way, or the highway. This isn't really a new thing for apple, though. The walled garden approach is just how they've always operated. Personally, I don't like it, which is why I favor android.

However, for Epic, the Apple market is just too big for them to completely write off and ignore. I do commend them for taking a stand for what they believe is right. Most companies wouldn't take the risk to go up against apple.

#22 38 days ago
Quoted from Isochronic_Frost:

Apple will win. You use their service you pay their price.

Apple says 30% no exception......well except for Jeff bezos, Amazon has a 15% deal the no one else can negotiate.

Quoted from ralphwiggum:

or even easier, just change the price of VBucks to reflect the 30% apple share.

Problem is Apple is controlling the Price on other platforms too. Fortnite is not allowed to charge a mark up for the Apple 30%. They have to charge the same price in the iOS store, play store, or directly from them, no matter what each one charges for a percentage. Basically you can’t make Apple look bad for charging more to iOS customers for using an iOS device.

This started the problem. Epic added a feature to bypass apples 30% to save the customer money.

Quoted from ralphwiggum:

So, how does Amazon get away with the same thing on Apple's store?

5 words. Richest man in the world.

#23 38 days ago

Remember the golden rule, s/he who has all the gold, makes the rules!

#24 38 days ago

Big dogs eat first.

#25 38 days ago

Apple also has a problem with "streaming" game services like Microsoft's xCloud and Google's Stadia.

At some point Apple might face users jumping ship to Android because Apple is too restrictive.

#26 38 days ago

Im firmly in the “could not possibly care less” arena, however based on my limited understanding, Epic signed a contract, and attempted to circumvent some very specific language through creative interpretation, and got busted. It may bite apple in the rear, it might not, but that is irrelevant to this situation.

#27 38 days ago

Neither Epic nor Apple have my sympathies here.. Epic threw money around to get games moved from Steam to their platform, which is still woefully underdeveloped and broken. They monopolized some long-anticipated releases and then whine about Apple's monopoly. Whatever.

#28 36 days ago

Apple is continuously showing how it is anti-consumer And it’s astonishing how they continue to do business.

Example. If you spent $200 on AirPods you can use them with any device you want, but if you want to update their software you will need to own a iPhone to do so.

Edit. Imagine the arrogance to tell your customer that they must spend more to fully use a product.

Sounds like stern with toppers that unlock modes

#29 35 days ago

My favorite episode of Adam Ruins Everything: Adam Ruins Tech. (my takeaway, the big 4 are monopolies and the govt has the power to break them up but refuses to)

one segment-

#30 35 days ago
Quoted from metallik:

Neither Epic nor Apple have my sympathies here.. Epic threw money around to get games moved from Steam to their platform, which is still woefully underdeveloped and broken. They monopolized some long-anticipated releases and then whine about Apple's monopoly. Whatever.

Yup they did it with Shenmue 3. It was Kickstarter funded years ago with a Steam option for PC users then Epic made a deal screwing backers over by pulling it from Steam and moving it to their shit store. Don’t recall how the dust settled on that one. I bought it on ps4. Apple sucks but so does Epic and google and amazon And every other billion/trillion dollar company. Nintendo has pulled the same walled garden shit as Apple since the NES but hey nostalgia so they get a pass. Think pinside is harsh, try arguing with a Nintendo fanboy. Fucking mindless cult with those people.

#31 35 days ago
Quoted from Neal_W:

govt has the power to break them up but refuses to

Breaking up a company into smaller parts doesn’t make competition. It just makes more companies that work together to screw the public.

Have you even heard of standard oil? They were forced to split up and it destroyed them......wait, no, they’re just as big now.

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#32 35 days ago
Quoted from Luckydogg420:

Breaking up a company into smaller parts doesn’t make competition. It just makes more companies that work together to screw the public.

You mean like Ma Bell? People have short memories.

There was ONE phone company in the recent past, Bell. You had to use them, had to use there ridiculously priced phones purchased from their phone store. Did not like the service, charges or phones available? To bad, so sad.

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