I'm assuming the turret will be removed and re positioned to become the topper when the head it up. Its so big it would have to be removed to lower the head, so my bet is they made attach points on the back of the head for transportation. Having it look like a tank when folded is a bonus.

As I mentioned above, the turret is most likely the topper. If so, it is simply too big to fold the head down with it on top, so why not create a convenient spot to mount the topper on the back of the head for transportation? Looks like a tank that way? Bonus! In your gameroom the head will most likely always be up?

Also, I like the new shape of the head compared to the strange rounded side shape AP used to have.

I stand corrected! To me this is a mistake, but I'm still optimistic on this game being a winner. Hopefully there are three versions of this game. I'll take the one in the middle if it doesn't have the turret and tank threads...

Games do kind of lean outward from the wall so that turret should fit. Here's a game that has the legs backed up all the way to the baseboard against the wall.

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I'm in line for one and still excited, but the final decision will be based on the playfield and game play. The way it looks is okay with me though I would probably leave the tank treads in the closet like I used to do with the wings on Safecracker. I installed them for a week when I first got the game, took them off, and never missed them a second afterwards. Having them in pristine condition when you sell the game is important though.

Just thinking out loud...normally I don't store things underneath pinball machines except subwoofers, because it looks ugly. With those tank treads installed you could store things under there and they would be kind of hidden! They appear to be lit up too, so maybe the treads will grow on me.

First of all that is a really fun playfield and second the playfield layout is a reskin of an old EM game Continental Cafe. So it is not really a Nordman playfield.

Interesting Nordman loves non standard flipper locations. These look extra wide but have posts to nudge with and the lucky lanes too. Playfield certainly has tons of ramps and shots everywhere. On a whole it looks great! The artwork is cool, I see three pop bumpers, lights above the speakers and they have gone to a standard backglass instead of having the display embedded in the backglass. All good there.

I'm not a big fan of the stadium style lighting. Stern still has everyone beat with the sleek Expression lights embedded in the cabinet...too bad Stern is still sitting on their thumbs and I don't have Expression lights in my Rush premium after a year though. Also, I'm not a big fan of the skinny stand up targets. The ones in the middle are already out of alignment. I see that as possibly the first mod to install the 3D printed supports or some other prop to keep them straight.

Edit: Looks like a pop up ball saver between the flippers?

So the wire form up top in the back is definitely a three ball physical lock. Very cool location and style!

Funny I never liked the rocking targets in the old Williams, but this one has a tractor beam and flying saucer up top? Ok, that I do like. Also, looks like the rings of Saturn have LEDs to simulate rotation. With the mirror this should look amazing. Hopefully I'm not wrong or I will have to start working on a mod!

I texted my distributor to ask what the pricing was going to be and so far nothing but crickets. American has always been reasonably priced bang for the buck so I'm hoping the prices won't go up too much...

For that price I would be out. I mentioned it before, hopefully there are three price points on this machine. The top tier being the one with the tank treads and turret, a middle tier that is similar to the old Deluxe verion and a lower tier similar to the old street version for arcades. Previously the deluxe has been $8400. If the playfield is packed to a whole new level to justify additional cost on the mid level version, I would consider that. I just can't imagine the tank treads and topper cost that much?

Right now the only game that I am in on for sure on this mega wave of new games is PF LE. Deposit is down and I can't wait. I am in line and have a position reserved for GTF, so here is hoping there is a version without the tank bling that is reasonably priced.

There would be some sort of counterweight so the motor wouldn't have to be too strong. But yes, it would be a liability and an incredible waste of BOM that could be used elsewhere.

Edit.

Just noticed the screw is facing up, so even if it is a camera it would be pointed at the ceiling. I would most likely be out if any game features a player camera integrated into the game play...

0.00% chance.

Unconfirmed rumors just rolled in... Reveal should be soon, maybe by Saturday? Three pricing tiers? Top tier is LE with the tank cabinet? LEs will be made first, so if you want to play it anytime soon, that is the choice? I suggest calling your distributor and getting in line if you are even considering this game. I'm on the fence leaning toward buying and if the game play reveal is as good as I'm hoping I'll be in on the Deluxe or LE depending on prices.

https://www.american-pinball.com/distributors/

Who has committed? I'm just on a list and when the time comes to commit AFTER seeing the gameplay footage, I will be at the top of the list if I do commit.

Fold-n-flight action.

Yeah it wouldn't fold during the game if there wasn't some sort of bonus game up there. Maybe a magnet tank game that looks like the old EM games? Looks like it may be an odd angle for taller players, but Dennis is tall so that is probably not an issue.

We've heard stories from designers going back decades where someone from accounting or management will remove a cool mech or two from a playfield because it made the BOM to high. It's looking like a safe bet that the inmates are running the asylum at AP now.

The backglass is in the way. More likely look in and see a mini tank game or an LCD.

Yes, there is a good chance we are overthinking this and it just folds down for attract mode and opens when you hit start - after firing the gun a few times.

I've had both games here on temporary trades. They're both really good games, but I like Oktoberfest just a little bit better. One thing for sure is that the build quality is second to none. Never had any issues with these games and they're solid as can be.

Dust cover and protection for the expensive Invisible glass.

Complete feature matrix somewhere?

So there is literally nothing extra going on with the tank cabinet LEs except that it looks like a tank when the head is folded down? So much conjecture and all of it I think because no one wanted to believe it couldn't be that simple. Who will ever fold the head down? In my house it would only look like a tank the day I buy it and the day I pack it to sell.

So yesterday I was torn between the LE and the Deluxe. The tank treads and head are completely useless to me, that is why I want to see a full feature matrix. The Deluxe not only has the better cabinet art, it simply looks a LOT better. To me it is basically as loaded or more loaded than a JJP or Stern LE for $9000 and possibly better build quality too. So today I'm torn between the Deluxe and bailing completely. I really need to see gameplay and know what else is lost going from the LE to the Deluxe.

Not to pile on, but I hate the Stadium style lights. You have a long ugly strip from top to bottom of the playfield on both sides. They could at least put some sort of art decal on top. Still I would definitely be looking into removing them if I got the game, just like I do with P1nstadiums. Stern still has by far the best design for this by being embedded in the cabinet side and taking up zero playfield space and blocking the view of absolutely nothing.

All of these pre-orders are clickable and yet no feature matrix to go by...

Wow. Watched some of the stream setting up at TPF. Lots of little hardware to put the Turret on and it's basically hollow plastic. Dennis confirmed what we have figured out at this point, the cabinet does nothing special except look like a tank. When the head is up all you see is the end of the gun barrel above the head. Certainly not a topper to write home about. I just can't imagine what they were thinking?

Looking at it, the turret sure looks a lot taller than the 9 inch gap I measured behind backboxes on modern games. If the hollow plastic turret hits first when the game is pushed up against the wall, it will smash instantly. Looking at the pictures, it actually looks like the tank treads purposely stick out in the back so they will hit first. If that is the case, will they hit above the baseboard in most game rooms? I push my games back all the way until the footies hit the baseboard. I don't want any games smashing directly into the painted drywall! Definitely need to see pictures from TPF of an LE against the wall!

I mentioned before that a week ago I was on the fence between an LE and the Deluxe. LE has turned out to be a disaster IMHO. I'm glad other people seem to like it, but 0.00% chance I am buying an LE now. The tank stuff is useless and the Deluxe has far better cabinet art and colors. The Deluxe will be built last, so plenty of time to decide there after seeing A LOT more game play.

At one point, they were rumored to be making Beetlejuice??? Not my favorite theme, but I can't help but think a license like that could withstand "questionable choices" in the design and still sell a whole lot more.

Considering the cow in the game figured you might have said udder disaster?

The LEs will never be easy to find.

I scanned through the seminar and noticed this picture to show how it fits against the wall. Notice the head is actually forward a couple of inches to add room for the turret. I'm still out on the LE, but at least the game can be put against a wall and not worry about the turret or tank treads hitting.

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Please no. I can't stand the stadium style lights and I know I am not alone on this. Lighting below the plastics allows the light to come through backlighting the plastics and lighting up the playfield at the same time. Not to mention from the player's standpoint the two strips running from top to bottom of the playfield look incredibly ugly and block the view below. Lets not fix something that is not broken, not to mention that brighter is not always better.

At this point I am leaning towards bailing on this game completely and the light strips are one of the big items in the cons column. If I do end up buying a Deluxe, the strip lights and all mounting hardware will be removed before I ever flick the switch to turn the game on.

Seriously? They hover right over the wire forms and the shooter lane. Much as I dislike the pinstadium brand lighting, at least they are mounted to the cabinet side and not floating over the playfield!

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That was the one common thing obvious in all of the minimal game play footage to this point. This is most definitely "stop and go" or even "bounce straight back in your face" and not flow. I also don't see a really satisfying shot except maybe the left orbit? Hopefully I'm missing something on that part.

Hopefully I can play one myself pretty soon. No FOMO at this point, now that I gave up my LE slot. I have all the time in the world to decide yay or nay on the Deluxe.

That air ball problem is not going to be fixed by a bracket behind the targets. There is going to have to be an extended deflector clear plastic above the targets. It won't look great, but it has proven to work as an after thought on games with much less of an issue than GTF has.

The instant I saw those five skinny stand up targets right in front of the flippers, all I could say was ugh... I don't like straight back in your face targets like that and these are wider and closer than any bash toy I can remember. I've also had a number of games, including old Bally EMs, with the pop up center post ball savers. At this point I have been there and done that *yawn*. That is another thing I would rather not ever have again and this game actually needs one because of these targets. So within one minute of seeing the playfield layout I went from 99% chance of buying to less than 50%.

As for lack of flow? I love flow games, like these new Elwin games where unlimited combos are possible. In the right case I can handle stop and go just fine also, but this is a whole new level. Inspection of this playfield shows that only two shots don't stop before returning to a flipper. The right orbit and the left ramp. So without repeating the ramp over and over on backhand there is no chance for more than a 2-way combo. Most of the newer Stern, Spooky and JJP games have more than 2 flippers and at least 5-10 shots that flow through and paths can be expanded by diverters like on Rush. Is this a show stopper for me and GTF? It sure looks like it in the game play videos I've seen. Fortunately the Deluxe version is not limited, so I'll have plenty of opportunity to play this game and see for myself.

The people I talked to who played it were all on the other side of the spectrum...except for my local distro. Meh was the best I heard from everyone else.

I was told the Deluxe ship last. Signatures seem to have sold out? LEs are available from basically every distro for pre-order, so they are not sold out by any means to the end user. Even still they may go ahead and produce the full run of 500? AP seems to have good production facilities compared to some of the other non-Stern Pinball companies. I would imagine they will produce them fast while still keeping up the top notch quality we have come to expect from AP.

I've done TONS of 3D printing and a big part of getting a good final product is the post processing. That would be cleaning up the stringing, smoothing rough areas and possibly even painting. They could make these a lot better with post processing or simply choosing better colors. The tank body is a nice vibrant red that really goes well with the color scheme of the art, but the little probe ships and the Nordman robot are a terribly generic gray that just doesn't work. During the streams that robot has a nice metallic copper/bronze color when they show it on the LCD. WTF? I have to think the original plans were to paint those models in post processing? Otherwise, why not just print them directly in a better color that matches the colors on the display?

So its not the 3D printing that I have a problem with, they just didn't do the greatest job. Strength is not an issue either. Getting 3D prints right takes time. 3D printers are great for prototyping or small carefully made batches, but not mass productions. Using a resin printer would have been another nice solution, but they went with the tooling they have.

In the end, it wouldn't be a lot of work to pull those models, clean up any stringing or rough areas, prime and paint. The models don't even make my list of reasons that I will probably pass on this game. If AP really wanted to be a help, they could release the models on Thingiverse and let people print them themselves or allow the mod makers to produce resin models or even create injection molds to make high end replacement toys for people who want them.

Hindsight is 20/20. It's the tank body on the LE and Signature LE that make the game a hard sell. Normally the LEs are the most desirable, but in this case the Deluxe is the one to get. There is an old saying that some people have a face that only a mother could love. There may be a handful of people out there that actually like it, but for me I would honestly be embarrassed to have one in my gameroom. On the other hand I would gladly take a Deluxe if I won it in a raffle!!

Despite not liking the tank body at all, I bought a ticket too. Project Pinball is an amazing charity. They not only place the pinball machines in Children's hospitals around the country, they also maintain them. That second point is critical or the machines would be pushed into a corner and unplugged the second they broke down.

The Deluxe is a beautiful package on par with some of the best looking pins ever. The speaker panel may be the best ever. BBB, BKSOR LE and the new Fathom Mermaids come to mind for other beautiful games. The cabinet art on the LE is not nearly as cool, the tank thread panels are meh at best and the worst part is the turret. From my perspective, I love a good topper and this game would be one that could have an amazing factory topper. Instead you have a turret that is 95% hidden when the head is up and the tip that you can see above the head while playing the game amounts to the worst topper in recent memory. What would be awesome is if they came out with a really nice Stern or CGC level topper for the Deluxe version. Not sure that would go over big with the LE buyers though.

Such a good looking game except for one thing. I can't be the only one thinking how bad those stadium lights look? Talk about a world under glass, this one includes it's own sun.

I own games that used to have p1n stadium lights...

The difference in price on Oktoberfest is $500 and you get these features on the Deluxe: shaker motor, knocker kit, magic glass, Art Blades and the Beer Stein.

On GTF Deluxe you get a $100 banner and the stadium lights along with shaker motor, knocker kit, magic glass, Art Blades and the Lunch Box. So if the lights are $400 a la cart, that would get it to $1000. To me that would make the Standard/classic easily the best model. I already have a spare sheet of Voodoo glass and don't care about the banner. I would buy the lunch box $40, art blades $100 and knocker $50. That would bring the game to $8190 and I wouldn't have to pay for the stadium lights only to remove them before the first game played.

Edit: Deluxe does not come with a banner. It was a while back since anyone posted this:
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Most of your post is bashing for the sake of bashing. This part I don't really understand, but I am guessing that we will see a Classic sooner than later. Maybe its wishful thinking, but I think the appeal of American at this point is more towards the bang for the buck of the low end. I have personally never even considered buying a Pro from Stern; its always LE or Premium. In this case the Deluxe has beautiful art work compared to the LE and Signature and has all of the same playfield components. The Classic will hopefully be even less cost and still similar in value to a Stern premium. Considering the build quality and the full package with no playfield items removed, the Classic would to me be a better bang for the buck than a Stern Pro. It would stand a chance of selling a lot of games to people who don't want to pay the extra bucks for the magic glass or stadium lights. At this point it is the only model left in the running for my money.

There were rumors for a while of a Nordman Beetlejuice. I defy anyone to tell me that title would not have sold many more games than GTF. And I also don't care about any pinside polls showing GTF equal or above games like Scooby or Godfather. Go look at the number in people's collections and it is not even close. While the pinside collections are not the whole world of pinball, I think the percentages are fairly close as a cross section. A decent shooting game with Scooby as the theme outsells a not-so-good shooting game with a well known theme like Godfather which in turn wipes the floor with GTF in sales despite GTF having more bang for the buck and higher quality build than either.

People add them to their collection the second they pre-order them. Do you really think there's over a hundred Godfather's in people's houses at this point? My collection currently includes a Pulp Fiction and a Haggis Fathom, neither of which has been built yet.

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False would be listing games that you don't have a deposit down and 100% committed to buying. Before pinside there were owners lists like this one: http://www.pinballowners.com/owners/3685

The pinside collections are a database that can be used by us all in a lot of ways. One of them is figuring out roughly how many of a given game has sold or the ratio of LE, Premium and Pro or whatever. It is only as useful and accurate as the information it is given.

Actually those would be listed in your "Wishlist" part of the collection just like the many games that I would like to have but for one reason or another do not. That reminds me, I need to put the Radical! that I got Friday back in to my collection.

How many of these Scooby Doo's do you suppose are actually in people's collection vs on order?

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How about the GTF LE:

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Or GTF Deluxe:

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Back to my point. I trust this a whole lot more statistically than the recent poll which showed GTF ahead of Scooby and GF...

You could just put them on your Wishlist so at least they show up in the statistics.

The pinside Top 100 and polls like the one here in the last couple of weeks are fatally flawed. Listing a game that you have bought, whether it is at your house or still being made, is a statistic that shows you have your money where your mouth is.

I probably shouldn't have pointed this out, because now fanboys will be adding games to their collections just like voting 10.0 in the Pinside review or choosing a game they are never actually going to buy in a poll.

Come to think of it, maybe fanboys are already listing games they have no plans on buying? That might explain these numbers for Godfather CE and LE???

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double

Maybe some suggestions need to be made here?

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/pinside-pricing-estimates-and-graphs

The system is not perfect and there is a thread to post suggestions to help fix it. Still silly "what ifs" don't change the concept that honestly listing games that you have intention to buy and money down on gives more useful and accurate statistics than keeping it secret for some reason. Hopefully Pinside will add a preorder category. Until then, the people here complaining are obviously in the minority based on how many people list PF, GF, SC and GTF in their collections. I personally don't give a crap what games are in an individual's collection unless I am some day coming over to play. What I do care about are the statistics that are gleamed as far as sales and other stats from analyzing the sum total of Pinsiders who have taken the time to keep track of their current, wishlist and past games. The first thing you learn in statistics class is that the larger the sample size, the more accurate the conclusions that can be drawn.

Either post what the problem is or don't post at all. Leaving things to conjecture is never good around here. That turd in the punch bowl most likely will be a Baby Ruth in the long run.

Don't blame pinside for this game tanking. Pinside was dying for a game to glom onto and fawn over from AP. Look at the early portions of this thread. There are always haters, but a half decent LE trim package and better gameplay and flow would have gone over BIG here with this cool theme and awesome art (classic at least). Even the bungled release could have been overlooked if the game hadn't had so many critical flaws. Too many other games released at around the same time gave people options to compare GTF to. And yes, the truly bizarre decision to go with the tank body, turret and treads alone was enough for many here including me to cancel LE orders and say no tanks.

"Fatal flaw" is probably a little strong and I should have known a wordsmith would call me out on it. I probably should have said something like "show stopper" from "my stand point of choosing this game" over or in addition to the competition. There have been plenty of examples given by others so I won't make a huge list.

As stated before, the ridiculous decision to go with a tank body art, turret and treads was literally the only thing I needed to see to cancel my LE order. I know for a fact that I am not alone there, so I will stand by the words "fatal flaw" in that case. After seeing the playfield and gameplay with close-in targets, pop up center post (I hate those with a passion), almost zero ball flow, junky 3D printed toys, stadium lights, etc those were show stoppers for me ordering a Deluxe. As mentioned in that post another huge factor was being able to compare with other games. PF LE, FF and SD are all games I would buy over GTF at this point and I have voted with my money by putting money down on PF LE and maintaining money down on Haggis Fathom.

There is a fix for that coming out? Some sort of metal brace. Another idea for reducing airballs might be to look for denser foam to replace that existing foam. AP sells some on their website, but it looks like it doesn't come on the game? Unless they have the dense foam in light color??

https://store.american-pinball.com/products/stand-up-target-backing-foam-10-pieces-kit0008-00

Got to play the game finally in two different quiet and nicely lit places. The gameplay is best described as "meh"; which was better than I was expecting. I was actually surprised that there were no airballs off the center targets and they also didn't seem as close as expected. That said, standup targets are still zero fun as the main shot in the game directly in front of the flippers. The game has even less flow that I was expecting and that is saying something. Maybe its me but the swinging cow target location is just not well thought out and seems too close to other stuff. The 3D printed toys looked terrible, but I still think that is mostly from bad color choices and lack of post processing and/or painting. For instance the red tank body looks good because of the bright red color and decals. The slings were weak as hell but I know from having Houdini and Oktoberfest in the past that the coils are all individually adjustable. Frankly the video scenes, bad as they are, didn't bother me at all. They fit the game fine and are not overdone. The artwork on the cabinet for the Deluxe is top notch. I had to rub it with my hand several times because my eyes were fooling me. The GTF logo looks 3D embossed, the effect is amazing and it is just done with shading. The one thing that was way worse than expected was the stadium lights. Granted I effin hate stadium lights with a passion, but these were really bad just way too bright and way out from the side of the cabinet in the view. They also seemed to change colors with the whole strip at a time rather than individual control of the LEDs doing chase effects etc??? Maybe as the software matures they will get better? Either way they would be completely removed from the game before the first game played if I ever do get one. The odds of that me getting a GTF are even less now, especially after playing Foo Fighters and loving it. FF is in a whole other class of games.

Companies keep that secret, so it is a best guess. Some people like to use the pinside database stats that show how many people have them in their collection along with how many on location. This is not super accurate, but the best available data that I know of. Obviously most people don't keep their pinside collections up to date and some people don't like to list a game in their collection if it is on pre-order and they have not received the game yet. All sorts of factors make these numbers inaccurate, but that doesn't mean that a decent look at the stats can't give a ballpark number.

So the best guess would be based on games we know for sure the numbers produced. Despite games being limited, that doesn't mean the company is making anywhere near the limit. Some games you know for sure have sold out. Foo Fighters LE and Pulp Fiction LE we know for sure sold out and there are 1000 of each. If you look in the Pinside database Pulp Fiction LE has 87 listed in peoples collections. These haven't started production yet so basically 8.7% of the people who bought LEs reported them here. So PF LE is a good baseline for the low boundary. For Foo Fighters LE there are a total of 264 listed between peoples collections and on location. Those have in theory all been made or shipped so the 26.4% of the total reported in the database is not a surprise. FF LE is a good baseline for the high boundary. GTF LE shows 13 and DE show 14 for a total of 27 GTF reported in the Pinside database. So based on the idea of somewhere between 8.7 and 26.4% of GTFs purchased being reported in the pinside database that would put the total sales between 100-310. While this is just a guess and there is a huge difference between 100 and 310, I would bet money that the number is somewhere in that range. And just to circle back, Scooby Doo has a total of 290 of all models reported in the database, so the 1400 referenced above is right in the middle of that range of percentages...

This is so unbelievable it makes my head want to explode. This is a commercial device not a 5th grade science fair project.

Sure that is understandable, but you still route the wires into the game for power rather than having two plugs and one being a wall wart!

If you like the game, I would not hesitate. AP builds a quality machine and stands by the customer. They are built solid like an old Williams/Bally from the 90s. I have had both Houdini and Oktoberfest and they were really impressive bang for the buck and fun. GTF might not be for me, but their previous selection is not diminished in the least.

Based on sales the last couple of years, CGC and Spooky have already knocked JJP to the 4 spot?

They still have put out a good amount of them especially recently, not to mention sold 1000 Pulp Fiction LEs.

I'm going to disagree unless you are talking a 4-year average or something. Since GnR the two JJP games have basically been one worse than the next in sales. Argue all you want about how few games CGC has put out but at least they are selling. On the other hand Godfather has apparently sold way less than Scooby and the secondary market is already saturated and dropping fast, so I doubt a lot more will ship. In 2023 market Spooky is #2 in my estimate followed by CGC with a slight lead over JJP and then a big gap to AP.

From the consumer standpoint I suppose a five year average is OK. Business is all about current metrics. I really doubt the marketing department and people pulling the purse strings at JJP, are saying "who cares that Scooby-Doo outsold Godfather and who cares Halloween plus Ultraman at least equaled if not more than Toy Story? Remember that we sold a bunch of GnR back in the day. "
This is dog eat dog. It's one thing to have a flop years ago when the competition wasn't as large. I may well be wrong, but with a half dozen pinball manufacturers these days, I wager that creditors don't care as much about past sales and see flops like GTF, LOV, TS or GF with a lot more anxiety.