Keep the plastic, give me more physical ball locks!
Quoted from gjm7777:I'm not sure when toys became so crucial in a pin, it's part of the overall package but it's the least on the importance scale for a game. You wouldn't think that however reading most any thread around a new release. Some people obsess and dress these games up like a child would a dollhouse. Having said that, I can understand how those who put such a high importance on plastics and toys would be disappointed these days.
For me it’s not that it needs a bunch of toys, it’s how bad the ones they did use look. Your argument could just as easily be applied to artwork, and even the die-hard old schoolers would be crying foul if the art was of the same caliber as these prints. It’s especially bad considering how nice the artwork is on this pin, there’s such a clash between the artwork and the 3D elements*.
*my new word for toys
Quoted from Ballderdash:Keep the plastic, give me more physical ball locks!
How about AND instead of OR?
Quoted from gjm7777:Some people obsess and dress these games up like a child would a dollhouse.
Ain’t that the truth
Quoted from Aurich:The 90s.
Some of you act like you just got unthawed from your cryogenic chamber.
I believe you are thinking of toppers.
toppers (resized).pngQuoted from gjm7777:I'm not sure when toys became so crucial in a pin, it's part of the overall package but it's the least on the importance scale for a game. You wouldn't think that however reading most any thread around a new release. Some people obsess and dress these games up like a child would a dollhouse. Having said that, I can understand how those who put such a high importance on plastics and toys would be disappointed these days.
To be specific, blame Space Shuttle for this one. But then again, that little plastic may have saved the game of pinball itself...
Quoted from Methos:Love empty games - I can see the ball better.
then you should love this
pasted_image (resized).pngI'm an idiot for just now realizing this, but yeah, "there's a shuttle in it!" was probably a huge reason Space Shuttle was a hit. I'd always heard it saved the industry, never understood why since to me it's an average game at best, but I'm not really charmed by static toys. Now I sorta get it.
Quoted from gjm7777:I'm not sure when toys became so crucial in a pin, it's part of the overall package but it's the least on the importance scale for a game. You wouldn't think that however reading most any thread around a new release. Some people obsess and dress these games up like a child would a dollhouse. Having said that, I can understand how those who put such a high importance on plastics and toys would be disappointed these days.
well Aurich already touched on it....but let's be precise here. It's less about the 'toys' on it, and more about the 'look of the toys' on it. The pictures themselves scream cheap. You guys are arguing the wrong point. In this case, probably be better if they weren't there. But they are. That and this thing is 9k, let's not forget that part.
Quoted from yancy:I'm an idiot for just now realizing this, but yeah, "there's a shuttle in it!" was probably a huge reason Space Shuttle was a hit. I'd always heard it saved the industry, never understood why since to me it's an average game at best, but I'm not really charmed by static toys. Now I sorta get it.
That toy space shuttle caused quite a stir, as did the constant multiball, cool sound, and return of speech after a few years.
Right game at the right time.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:That toy space shuttle caused quite a stir, as did the constant multiball, cool sound, and return of speech after a few years.
Right game at the right time.
I'd also argue Space Shuttle is a relatively forgiving game as well. Multiball is very easy to achieve, it gives you an outlane gate, and a somewhat generous center post save.
Pretty sure it has a bell too. The bonus lamp grid is impressive when it does the countdown effect. They really loaded the game up.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:constant multiball, cool sound, and return of speech after a few years.
As someone who got into pinball in the '90s, I foolishly took all this stuff for granted. Thanks for everything, Barry and crew!
Quoted from yancy:Damn, now I want a Space Shuttle all of a sudden.
I mean, the quality of the shuttle isn't that nice after all...
Quoted from TreyBo69:I mean, the quality of the shuttle isn't that nice after all...
[quoted image]
/remindme in 40 years to see what a spybot in GTF looks like now.
Quoted from yancy:Damn, now I want a Space Shuttle all of a sudden.
Thanks yancy for reminding me about Ed restoring his machine and seeing it still on the Internet!
https://www.edcheung.com/album/album05/pinball/shuttlepin.htm
Quoted from Sorokyl:if we're comparing spaceships here's a more recent and fair comparison of a toy that improves the ambiance of a game (what if this was just a stand up with no toy!)
[quoted image]
Prime example of a good toy doesn't make a game actually good.
Clearly, the once captivating "world under the glass" experience has taken a back seat. Today's opportunistic monopolists, are leveraging brand licensing, efficiency, and sales strategies to maximize profits. Tiered offerings and initiatives like "Insider Connect" or rather “Consumer Marketing Data Collect” are likely focused on monetization rather than enhancing the player experience.
Many YouTube influencers and dealers promote this trend, as they benefit from their “affiliations.” Newcomers to the hobby may be misled into believing that a company like Stern represents the all time pinnacle of pinball design. This tendency is evident in Pinside's top 100. This statistically generalized buyer may also be the type who invest in overpriced made-in-china collectibles and seeks affirmation through ones "Pro Player" status or by having the latest licensed pinball installment in their basement rather than a truly well maintained/rare machine.
I choose to support the underdogs, as I believe healthy competition is vital to the continuing success of this industry. Niche manufacturers bring fresh perspectives to the market, driving customer centric innovation by challenging established norms and practices.
Yes modern games do provide enjoyable arcade experiences, and although they are not terrible, it’s just different.
While some may prefer to purchase games designed by YouTube influencers, or tournament player turned toy designers and a cost-minimizing manufacturer, I value the ingenuity, history, and charisma of classic pinball machines. Along with modern games that effectively embody an era when ingenuity prevailed over hype...
Quoted from TreyBo69:Because it's a physical game with a lot of vertical space to fill out. Toys make the game feel full. Games seem empty without some stuff/decoration. Look at James Bond Pro...game looks empty with all that space in the back
Does AFM need a bunch of little ufo saucers next to the big one? No, but it makes the game look way better and they function as good flash lamps.
I don't agree. I don't think Whirlwind feels empty - Yet no toys.
I don't think TNA feels empty, yet no toys.
I think it's possible to make interesting games without toys, and just like people clown puking LEDs all over their games toys can be equally obnoxious. Especially if not done tastefully - See various aftermarket mods...
Quoted from Haymaker:I think games should have nice toys and sculpts and whatnot in them because (in addition to the other points being made) they are charging us so much for these things. I think the majority would agree that we'd prefer nicer/more stuff under the glass than a tank cabinet. If you want a game with no toys or anything in it, theres plenty of those to buy that don't cost 9k+.
If a company wants top dollar for their product, then it's imperative they offer top quality.
Interesting take, though Jersey Jack is a new, only 10 year old company, that helped to push the industry forward, not just make the same ol' same ol'. You could argue that Stern was happy to live in the past as the only company in town before they came along.
I mean not every innovation is great, I remember seeing Revenge from Mars in the arcades back in the day and being confused why they made a pinball game like that, not sure I even bothered to try it, but I think I did play the "gem" that was Episode 1 at one point. Oof, good riddance to that design.
Is GTF even that old school? It's doing some old things, but visually seems modern. PF is absolutely old school.
As a returning customer with a GTF LE on order and being highly irritated by the (unpainted) toys (print) quality I have sent an email to AP yesterday asking if this really is the final state of the toys. Haven’t heard from them yet but I simply cannot believe that this is their take in such an environment we‘re in when it comes to what other manufacturers actually have to offer. Sculpted and painted Toys in this price tag area are a must have imho. I believe that there‘s a toy-gate coming otherwise AP would painly see in their sales numbers. I have understood that they have already confirmed this as a fact but I want to get first hand information on that before I decide what to do next. This stuff is not acceptable for me personally.
Quoted from gjm7777:I'm not sure when toys became so crucial in a pin, it's part of the overall package but it's the least on the importance scale for a game. You wouldn't think that however reading most any thread around a new release. Some people obsess and dress these games up like a child would a dollhouse. Having said that, I can understand how those who put such a high importance on plastics and toys would be disappointed these days.
I think a lot of people describe pinball toys here as devices and or mechs that interact physically with the ball, not stationary molds, figurines, standup targets, and divertors. Personally I would describe the Balrog as a toy in LOTR as it interacts with the ball, I wouldn't include the little figurines all over the playfield. The spinning disk on Godfather and GNR, sure let's say it's a toy. The Slash hat above the spinning disk on GNR? Not a toy, doesn't do anything. The jump ramp in Toy Story? Toy / mech as it directly interacts with the ball. Personally I would describe an entire upper or lower mini playfield on a game as a toy. Drop targets on a game? Sure count them as a toy or mech. Standup targets no.
We need interactive toys in modern games as otherwise what the hell are we paying $7k - $12k+ for? Orbits, ramps, and the air between them? That's nuts. There's probably nothing pinball companies love to hear more then "Wow this game is so fast" and "There's no stop and go", well of course a game with barely anything in it will play fast and at today's prices that's not a good thing.
Quoted from Sorokyl:if we're comparing spaceships here's a more recent and fair comparison of a toy that improves the ambiance of a game (what if this was just a stand up with no toy!)
[quoted image]
Did stern actually make these, or buy an off the shelf existing toy?
Quoted from titanpenguin:Did stern actually make these, or buy an off the shelf existing toy?
Well we know JJP sometimes uses cake toppers from aliexpress. Lol.
Quoted from titanpenguin:Did stern actually make these, or buy an off the shelf existing toy?
A lot of times they make them. I'm pretty sure. The foo fighters toys for example are custom. Mechagodzilla is custom.
Quoted from PanzerFreak:I think a lot of people describe pinball toys here as devices and or mechs that interact physically with the ball, not stationary molds, figurines, standup targets, and divertors. Personally I would describe the Balrog as a toy in LOTR as it interacts with the ball, I wouldn't include the little figurines all over the playfield. The spinning disk on Godfather and GNR, sure let's say it's a toy. The Slash hat above the spinning disk on GNR? Not a toy, doesn't do anything. The jump ramp in Toy Story? Toy / mech as it directly interacts with the ball. Personally I would describe an entire upper or lower mini playfield on a game as a toy. Drop targets on a game? Sure count them as a toy or mech. Standup targets no.
We need interactive toys in modern games as otherwise what the hell are we paying $7k - $12k+ for? Orbits, ramps, and the air between them? That's nuts. There's probably nothing pinball companies love to hear more then "Wow this game is so fast" and "There's no stop and go", well of course a game with barely anything in it will play fast and at today's prices that's not a good thing.
I agree with you. interactive is better. GZ is a great example. bridge, building, spinner platform, mecha GZ.
Great example of a modern designer and engineer coming up with cool ideas.
in GTF the tank is... kind of interactive I guess. it reacts to you hitting the targets. But you could have those targets without the tank, so it's not --really-- part of it. The spybots do have a really cool light show when you trigger their mode, but they do not interact with the ball at all.
This is an example of an old designer that designed a very standard game with no toys. just ramps, stand ups, pop bumper nest... And then he handed it to AP and they vomited filament all over it.
Some people talk about System 11 games like some of them don't have things that completely hold up to today's standards. I think most people are happy to have elements from System 11 games, just modern players would want more depth.
Quoted from squaresville:I don't have a source, but I had always heard Jack joined Stern with the understanding that his Dead Flip show would continue as-is, including streaming non-Stern games. Again, that's nothing I can confirm, but he did stream TS4 and LoV while he was assuredly working for Stern.
Yeah, that was the case, but I've heard Stern has some issues him playing other companies new machines.. so I don't expect him to highlight new stuff for much longer.
Kind of a bummer how even though Stern STILL has like 90% of the market, even with all these new companies, they still are very unfriendly towards "competitors". Guessing most of that comes from upper management though.
Meanwhile, during Toygate 2023, I was happy to see they bothered to add interaction with the tank and RGB lighting to the spybots.
You clowns can keep your flat plastic butyrate shrinkydinks that Stern throws all over the place. I'll take lit, 3d printed toys all day long.
Quoted from Ribs:Maybe the toys are supposed to be ironically bad.....look how charming their crudeness is!
The toys are so "campy"
Quoted from yancy:I'll be ripping some FF ramps
Enjoy the ripping! If the Foo Fighters' sound doesn't make you want to stick your head in a blender, then FF might just be your ticket to ramp-ripping glory (or losing your sanity, whichever goes first).
The only time I played FF I couldn't hear it. But I've heard the band, they're alright, don't make wanna put my tender heart in a blender.
Quoted from Ribs:Maybe the toys are supposed to be ironically bad.....look how charming their crudeness is!
Like the marketing campaign?
Quoted from yancy:The only time I played FF, I couldn't hear it.
Well, it's also subjective; I may be one of the few who can’t stand that sound. Also, I do agree that the 3D printed toys in GTF are a disappointment...
There is no sugarcoating it...
Quoted from valgalder:Kind of a bummer how even though Stern STILL has like 90% of the market, even with all these new companies, they still are very unfriendly towards "competitors". .
What does this even mean?
One of their designers/faces of the company routinely does high profile streams highlighting the work and helping sell games for their major competitors.
What could possibly be more "friendly" than that?
Quoted from PanzerFreak:I think a lot of people describe pinball toys here as devices and or mechs that interact physically with the ball, not stationary molds, figurines, standup targets, and divertors. Personally I would describe the Balrog as a toy in LOTR as it interacts with the ball, I wouldn't include the little figurines all over the playfield. The spinning disk on Godfather and GNR, sure let's say it's a toy. The Slash hat above the spinning disk on GNR? Not a toy, doesn't do anything. The jump ramp in Toy Story? Toy / mech as it directly interacts with the ball. Personally I would describe an entire upper or lower mini playfield on a game as a toy. Drop targets on a game? Sure count them as a toy or mech. Standup targets no.
We need interactive toys in modern games as otherwise what the hell are we paying $7k - $12k+ for? Orbits, ramps, and the air between them? That's nuts. There's probably nothing pinball companies love to hear more then "Wow this game is so fast" and "There's no stop and go", well of course a game with barely anything in it will play fast and at today's prices that's not a good thing.
I don't look at functional parts of the game as "toys". I look at them as an integral part of the game the manufacturer is trying to market. Yes, we can argue the entire pinball machine is just one big "toy", but regardless, it is a product the manufacturer is trying to sell to a pinball player and/or collector, and they include those particular parts of the game as a value-add in order to entice that buyer to pay their asking price for their product. Sure, there is a lot that is dress-up, but I doubt there will be many folks lining up to shell out 11K for a pinball with no artwork, and nothing on a playfield. Artwork itself adds very little to the game so far as the actual playing experience, yet we all know it can certainly make or break a game, so why are the art lines any more important than the aesthetics of a 3-D printed robot? Using the logic that the robot is merely a 'toy' and doesn't matter, would surely also mean the artwork could be done in pencil and that wouldn't matter either, right?
To me, a 'toy' is an add-on....something that was not a part of the marketed product.....I guess most call them mods. I do realize many people refer to the playfield gadgets as 'Toys', but I look at them as part of the overall package they are selling me. There are no 'toys' and there is no such thing as a "world under glass" except in my ant farm. I might choose not to buy a particular microwave because the handle wasn't molded well and doesn't look good in my house, even though it functions fine as a handle.
That would certainly be normal, right? So why is it any different when we talk about 3-D printed objects in a pin? I'm just saying for the value they are expecting to get for the pin, they have a few areas in my opinion that need addressed, and one ids the 3-D print. is it going to stop me from buying?....no. Am I hoping they will see what people think and re-consider the 3-D print? yes.....
Quoted from Invictus:Clearly, the once captivating "world under the glass" experience has taken a back seat. Today's opportunistic monopolists, are leveraging brand licensing, efficiency, and sales strategies to maximize profits.
Oh no, they've commercialized pinball.
BIG Profits (resized).pngQuoted from Zablon:In my day pinball was only about boobs, beer, and sorcerers.
Pinball is still about "boobs", but we have grown a lot....we are no longer gender specific!
Quoted from Aurich:Oh no, they've commercialized pinball.[quoted image]
It is a true tragedy that the pinball industry is now focused on making a profit rather than the old days, when it was all about losing money to put smiles on kids' faces.
But let's face it...while the non-profit pinball industry succeeded without profits for 80 years or so, the time has come for them to keep up with the times and finally come up with a way to pay for all of it and even make some money.
it couldn't last forever! Which leads us to the tragedy of today's 3D-printed toys.
Quoted from Zablon:In my day pinball was only about boobs, beer, and sorcerers.
And before that: pool, cards, and wizards
Quoted from Aurich:Oh no, they've commercialized pinball.[quoted image]
Let me elaborate in simple terms...
Stern's approach to product development is like making a lot of cookies that all look and taste the same. While it's cost-effective and can sell a lot of cookies quickly, it can also be risky for the business. Customers might get bored with the lack of variety, and they might start looking for something more interesting and exciting elsewhere.
Additionally, if competitors start making cookies that are more unique and tailored to customer preferences, Stern could be left behind in the market. By investing more in product innovation and variety, Stern could create more loyal and engaged customers, and stay ahead of competitors in a competitive market.
This is commonly referred to as a "cookie-cutter" approach to product development in business and academic contexts...
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