Wanted to add that although the game is lacking and clunky, the art is great.

Summary below.

Immediately though of American revealing GTF.

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It's true, on release licensed games will sell better. They perform better on route. I think most of us are not route operators or "general public" though.

But look at the 90s (last time we had a large number of licensed games). On one hand you've got MM/AFM/TOM/CV/NGG/TOTAN/WH20. Not huge sales numbers on those. Then you've got tons of licensed games...JP, Batman, Simpsons, Mario, Popeye, Episode 1... most of which sold more than each of those unlicensed games. But today, which ones do you want? Sure there were like 4-5 great licensed games that have stood the test of time, but the unlicensed games turned out to stand the test of time better, and due to their low production numbers are some of the most valuable machines that exist.

So, I understand the criticism from a business perspective "Do you want to sell games? Do licensed themes"
But as hobbiest/players/collectors I don't see any reason to shun unlicensed themes or desire companies to only make those.

Well yeah. It’s perfectly fine to want unlicensed games as a collector. You have no skin in the game, so anything different is interesting. What’s strange is when people continue to pound the table and ask why don’t we have more unlicensed games when it’s been explained to death and back.

And then hardly anyone bought the many original themes released the last several years while saying “no, not like that”

I don’t even agree with the cherry picked examples. TAF, TZ, and IJ were mass produced and are highly desired. Way more desired by a per unit basis. I think TAF is a bad game but it’s 10k min with 20k units produced.

Pretty sure he's referring to the self-proclaimed king of all podcasters

MOST of the licensed games, indeed big licenses, although they sold better, are not as popular today.
And I'd argue that even though TAF, TZ, IJ, (STTNG, you forgot that one)! are very popular/collectable. Id say they are comparable in today popularity/demand among players/collectors with the MM/MB/AFM/popadiuks. And I would say that the IP gives those licensed themes some of their appeal... and the original theme gives some of the unlicensed games their appeal!

But I agree, licensing costs aside (which I doubt many of us have a good handle on), if you're trying to make money selling pinball machines, licensed themes have always sold better.

My apologies, I'm always thinking more in line of the bitching from Pinsiders that I would think are actually trying to purchase a good, fun pin. Not Joe Blow down the street that wants to hang posters and look at pretty lights for 10k. I totally understand the general public and wet behind the ears owners.

The game has to actually be good, don't forget.

I look at Dialed In as probably the most glaring example. Good game, but polarizing theme. Hell, I'll go so far as to say bad theme.

Tell me if DI had GTF's art package/space theme without the tank - ice cream - live action it wouldn't have been a huge success.

Back on track though, this a GTF thread.

Anyone of the lucky ones that grabbed a deluxe from shows lmk if selling. Near Md/pa/va

Monster Bash is licensed from Universal Pictures.

Go to the route operators thread and see the play count for a lineup. South Park still highest, Circus Voltaire low. There is very little correlation between how much a game is played and how good the rest of us see it as. In fact I would say that to the degree there is any it is an almost inverse correlation. And as to many of those non licensed themes commanding amazing prices it is because production runs were so low. Manufacturers saw zero of Circus Voltaire commanding such high prices these days. TBH I’m looking for a South Park to put in my place given how popular it apparently is.

Let me head this off before it happens...

At this point in the thread, someone will inevitably pop in that's an operator and give an example of an unlicensed theme that did well for them. It's true, it can happen. However, it's way more likely to happen at a location where's there's hardcore players that can see past theme and recognize a good game.

But generally speaking, that's not the case.

I owned a DI. I can see past a license.

But my point, and the point of many in this thread, is that AP is a smaller company that has decided to tie their hands behind their backs by choosing to do original themes. This is simply guaranteed to lead to less sales than if they did an appealing licensed game.

That's fine and well, I guess. But many of us wonder how they can continue like this. Do they have an unlimited bank roll? Why make life harder? Why not do some licensed games so that you can generate more money for the company. You can then bring more talent in-house. You can then upgrade from aggressively mediocre 3D prints to actual molds. You can help ensure your survival to make pins not for a few more years, but maybe decades.

If the company wants to let their "creative side" run wild on a few games here and there, more power to them. But as an insurance policy against such high risk, why not crank out licensed pins that we all know will sell more? Hedge your bets, FFS.

in 1994 the first Playstation was released. The arcade and pinball industry took a huge hit because of it. 3 years later papa started up on the east coast. Then IFPA Pinball relaunch in 2006. Those 2 kept Pinball alive. Especially with online gaming was in full swing. As a operator/player/tech I would like to see more people going out the play pinball.

I’m actually a potential buyer for GTF. But like you I’m clear I’m doing it for myself and not for the good of my establishment. For that matter same reason we have 40 pins on the floor rather than add another skee ball and air hockey. You have to admire the chutzpah of AP and it’s part of the reason I have so much interest in this machine. But yeah from a business standpoint what they keep doing makes zero sense.

I've been in the hobby for quite awhile, ears feel pretty dry. But given the cost of new games I'll always favor a game with a theme that resonates with me over a game with a theme that does nothing for me. I'll play whatever on location, but dropping 5 figures on a game (all NIB games are 5 figures up here now), it has to be more than just a "good, fun pin". It has to look good, sound good and have a "good for me" theme.

I like GTF as far as recent original IPs go, actually like the theme more than Pulp Fiction (crazy I know), but compare to the general response to Pulp Fiction ("It's Pulp Fiction, take my money now") to GTF (it's about tanks, ice cream and cows?) it is pretty easy to see why licensed IP almost always equals more sales.

How did CGC do with CCr, AFMr and MMr and every future title.

It’s all BS. When you have multiple games you want something different. There is a place for these games, especially when the “sales window” NEVER closes.

Not sure why that is “confusing” to some

The GTF theme resonates with many people. There is a similar slot machine with Aliens, saucers and cows. It does quite well because it’s FUN

I don’t understand AP or how this even exists but because it does, still leaning toward full TANK!
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From a “business standpoint” my buddy here locally says it’s earning right there with FF, slightly below

CGC had to license those games, the point is moot as they are existing intellectual property. They didn't make a new unlicensed pin, CGC was counting on people wanting a rare licensed Cactus Canyon not a brand new game.

The easiest way to settle this dumb and never ending argument is to buy a galactic tank force. Or don’t. And let the crumbs fall where they may!!

I’m no expert, but I just don’t understand how Ap can remain in business putting out the likes of Oktoberfest and GTF. Who the Hell is buying this nonsense?

Is AP a loss-leader tax shelter for some govt contractor? Is it some rich guy losing millions a year just to give his kids something to run and keep them off the streets?

Are they actually somehow selling these gaudy paperweights?

We may never know. But clearly, if you think unlicensed is the way to go, speak with your wallet and keep this river of wacky themes nobody is asking for flowing!

We may even finally get to see Food Truck in all its glory!

I believe they are under common control or a wholly owned sub of Aimtron which is a larger, probably much more successful company

Patience Levi, it’s coming and the “sales window” will be open for a long time for you

What are you talking about? These are ORIGINAL IP titles. Made decades ago and still very popular.

AP might license GTF in 20 years to a new company.

Last 3 times at a barcade, I played GZ, EHoH, CV, TAF, MB.

THE ONLY other games I saw people play were SW, T2, And skee ball. Either you focus on location play with a licensed pin or target home use. Very few pins balance both. Case in point, although panned by pinheads, I hear super Mario still does well on location.

EDIT: I realize I added nothing to this thread with my post. I'm bored...

Mario and South Park crush on location.

Line deep at TPF as well. Kills it.
Whoever buys Mario rights could throw a piece of PVC pipe on a white wood and make out really well.

Sounds like a job for Homepin!

Take that back, maybe not…

So how’s AP’s future looking?

Past - Houdini, OKTOBERFEST, Hot Wheels and Valhalla each sold approx 500 games.

Currently - GTF! is in production although none are rolling off the line, yet. We’ve seen 2 official GTF! streams and gameplay wasn’t good in at least one. People want changes to LCD content, programming, music and the drop target bank itself. Orders are low and it will be challenging to find one to play other than attending a pinball show. Probable sales are 500.

Next#A - supposed BarryO design original theme. Probable sales 300.

Next#B - supposed unlicensed Nordman design of WH2O2. Popular first pin, but a lot of its value was the unique foil stamped topper. Not expecting a similar topper on WH202. It will have a small and vocal following but at a rumored price of $9k, unsure how well it will sell. Probable sales 500.

So if this plays out as described over 2023 & 2024, that will be a total of seven titles in seven years and a total of 3.5k pins sold. That would warrant a liquidation of AP’s pinball unit.

At the very least, I hope AP has finally figured out that “comedy pins” are way too had to pull off for a mass audience. It’s simply way too easy to fall flat on your face (especially with a “original” joke theme) which is why you don’t see smart pinball companies building their games around fart, dick, and gay sex jokes.

Well, at least going back to family guy. But let’s at least acknowledge that family guy had legitimate professional comedic talent behind it, and had a built in following.

If this game were just another Afm concept ripoff it would at least have a chance. GTF and Oktoberfest are what happens when people who think they are funny are allowed to completely run the show and drive the Concept.

It’s painful to watch unfold.

You asked, "How did CGC do with CCr, AFMr and MMr and every future title." and I responded with the fact they had to license already made assets from another company. If CGC made Castle Madness with all new assets then it would be ORIGINAL as you put it. They are preying on people who have nostalgia for an existing IP as much as someone who likes James Bond or Foo Fighters. Black Knight: Sword of Rage is not an ORIGINAL IP, it is preying on your love of something that already exists.

Bally Williams made ORIGINAL IP and CGC is just licensing it.

It’s still ORIGINAL IP. That’s the point. Like GTF

Bashing on Oktoberfest is violence against me. It's an excellent game with a theme that has over 200 years of history. Proast!

Oooooh, I hadn't heard this one, I hope so!
I'd be all over that like cows.......ice cream...and aliens.

It’s nothing like GTF. No one has any kind of emotional connection to it. Let’s see in 30 years if anyone remakes it. Then it will be apples to apples.

Simply stating they are both original IP is kind of pointless.

Made decades ago, that eventually became popular.

AIMTRON.

True. WMS pinball went under due to lack of sales. MM was not overly popular at less than 4500 units. AFM same. Today they’re worth gold bullion!

CV was a flop when it came out. Williams had it on clearance price for around $2200 for New in the box units. I paid $2000 for one around 2004 and it was like new.

The emotional connection is just forming.

Check back in 30 years on this ORIGINAL IP

To say an original theme can’t be successful is ridiculous.

Since we are taking a trip down memory lane I’ll tell you what I always heard from the old timers -

MM and AFM were both very good earners and they could have sold a ton more to operators at the time but that’s just not how Williams did things. Pinball was on the decline and those were the production runs and that was it. They didn’t “vault” games like stern or have any kind of flexibility.

It’s all moot anyway. Comparing these ancient games to modern unlicensed themes built around aging boomer humor is a complete joke. We all know it makes zero sense to claim the popularity of a 25 year old game has any relevance to marketing new games.

Agree. Too many companies taking creative liberties and falling a bit flat.
FF surfer dude cartoons and JJP employees as cartoon mobsters are other glaring examples.
Who thinks this is funny?!

Works for slot machines today.

Makes perfect sense. Doesn’t fit the hate narrative, I get it. But they are ORIGINAL themes no matter how you try and spin it.

Bond has made you even more cranky Levi !

I do agree with you. But I'd like to spin this argument a bit, if I could.

I'm sure there are a few people who are like, "God, I just love foo fighters. What's that? There is a pinball machine featuring foo fighters? What's pin.... ball? And also, how much is it? 10 thousand dollars? Honey, get my check book."

The farther we get into this hobby the less and less people will just buy these outrageously expensive toys for shits and giggles (not knowing the hobby like we all do) just because of theme and nothing else. And god help them if they're buying pinball machines that know nothing about this hobby just because of theme.

Of course, as I typed out that paragraph, it pains me to see people put down thousands of dollars for games sight unseen. These chaps clearly have more "fuck you" money than I'll ever dream of possessing.

The other side of the coin is, I've seen many cgc machines with original themes out there in the wild that counter this argument. Nearby me we have a cactus canyon. People play it. Why? Because people like cacti? Canyons?

This hobby is getting outrageously esoteric. It is collapsing upon itself. Themes you enjoy certainly can help to sell themselves and to put more quarters into them, but I believe we also can look past them and play the games because they're GOOD games.

Now I personally am out on GTF not because of theme, but because of execution. I was high on this game all the way until seeing game play. To me, and many people here, gameplay is still king.

And they're terrible machines. So you're sadly right, theme can be important to the public masses. But to me, I want the game to be actually good and don't care about theme. Which is why if gtf were good, I'd buy one.

No one is saying that. It’s just not a good business decision if it’s your whole model.

“Good” is subjective obviously. Just because it doesn’t fit your definition of “good” based on the games I see you own, ultimately it’s just your one person opinion. Everybody has one.

The good news is that we all get to pick what we like and spend our $$$ the way we choose.

Having options is also a good thing.

What are you talking about? These are ORIGINAL IP titles. Made decades ago and still very popular.
AP might license GTF in 20 years to a new company.

As much of a chance as ice cream and cows being in hell.

Who says? How does anyone here know the financials of AP? Total sales? They keep cranking out games and somehow survive. People here just making shit up

It’s also not their “whole model”. Houdini and Hot Wheels and to some extent Oktoberfest (which is a cool game) are not ORIGINAL themes

Just pick what you like. If you don’t like any AP games there are plenty of others to choose from