(Topic ID: 300895)

Anyone willing to work on a Williams Sys 8 Board? UPDATE!

By vdojaq

2 years ago


Topic Heartbeat

Topic Stats

  • 21 posts
  • 13 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by vdojaq
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 2 years ago

Or does anyone have a working spare they pulled from a Pennant Fever?

I bought this damn thing about 4 years ago not realizing that System 8 boards were used on 2 novelty pitch n bats ONLY. I have finally have gotten some time to look into this thing only to realize the board is a basket case. Got the power supply all nice and rebuilt. Oh boy!

It has battery damage. I have seen worse, much worse, and have seen better. Anyone think they can work on it or want to take a stab at it. Or suggestions on who would?

Any heads up is appreciated!

Jack

#2 2 years ago

ChrisHibler does great board work.

#3 2 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

Or does anyone have a working spare they pulled from a Pennant Fever?
I bought this damn thing about 4 years ago not realizing that System 8 boards were used on 2 novelty pitch n bats ONLY. I have finally have gotten some time to look into this thing only to realize the board is a basket case. Got the power supply all nice and rebuilt. Oh boy!
It has battery damage. I have seen worse, much worse, and have seen better. Anyone think they can work on it or want to take a stab at it. Or suggestions on who would?
Any heads up is appreciated!
Jack

Send a Photo of the front and back side of the areas

#4 2 years ago

Yep. Post a pic of the damage.

Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
Http://chrishiblerpinball.com/contact
http://www.PinWiki.com/ - The new place for pinball repair info

#6 2 years ago

Pictures

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#7 2 years ago

Way too much corrosion for my tastes, but I'm sure someone else will take you up on the repair.

#8 2 years ago

Wonder if Pinball Basement has the info/ screens on that board.

#9 2 years ago

"She's dead Jim".
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#10 2 years ago

Dang, at first I was like, hey wow the Sys11 I resurrected for my BadCats was worse thaaaaaaann-nnoope, it wasn't!

I appreciate a challenge and all but yikes that's bad. Do any of those tiny traces even tone out? That's going to be a real labor of love. I'd might do it myself for the challenge / my own game but would probably never feel confident in warranty.

Can a Sys9 be made backwards compatible? Of course only compared to Sys8 might a 9 board be considered "easy" to find.

#11 2 years ago

My suggestion would be to send DumbAss a message and ask if one of his new system 9 boards could be used in your application.

#12 2 years ago

The unique thing about the System 8 MPU is that it has the HV UDN7180 display circuitry on it.
Anything is possible but adapting a System 9/11 MPU would be a big challenge.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

#13 2 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:Pictures
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]

Wow, that board is about 90% corroded. That's too bad, especially for a rare board like that.

A number of years ago, I heard of a Chinese company that could scan a depopulated PCB, redraw it, and then either produce it or give you the files for it.

I don't remember the company name, but it might be worthwhile to look into considering the rarity of the board.

Quoted from ChrisHibler:

The unique thing about the System 8 MPU is that it has the HV UDN7180 display circuitry on it.
Anything is possible but adapting a System 9/11 MPU would be a big challenge.
--
Chris Hibler - CARGPB #31
http://ChrisHiblerPinball.com/Contact ... for board repairs
http://www.PinWiki.com - The Place to go for Pinball Repair Info

I'm not familiar with the sys8 board at all, but would it be possible to work up an add-on module or board for a sys9 board?

#14 2 years ago
Quoted from ChrisHibler:

The unique thing about the System 8 MPU is that it has the HV UDN7180 display circuitry on it.

Looking at the schematic it looks like Williams subsumed the master display board logic onto the main board. This is evidence from images of the game where the ribbon cables go straight to the plasma slave numeric display.

Quoted from ChrisHibler:

Anything is possible but adapting a System 9/11 MPU would be a big challenge.

See below.

Quoted from ForceFlow:

A number of years ago, I heard of a Chinese company that could scan a depopulated PCB, redraw it, and then either produce it or give you the files for it.
I don't remember the company name, but it might be worthwhile to look into considering the rarity of the board.

It will probably be prohibitively expensive. You would also have to source the UDN7180 ICs.

Quoted from ForceFlow:

I'm not familiar with the sys8 board at all, but would it be possible to work up an add-on module or board for a sys9 board?

See following.

So I just took a quick look at the schematic. I have a very good local friend who has this game but it's packed up in storage so I don't have access to the board. I don't think access to a physical board is necessary because the differences are evident from the images.

<TL;DR>

That's right TL;DR. Stop reading now if you don't care.

Here's the analysis for anyone that's interested.

System 8 display output. This is where Williams subsumed the master display board logic.

01_sys8_bcd_strobes.jpg01_sys8_bcd_strobes.jpg

System 9 display output. The System 9 board has connectors so it is possible to bridge this. Caveat: see further below.

02_sys9_bcd_strobes.jpg02_sys9_bcd_strobes.jpg

System 8 solenoid drives. Eight solenoids are available. This is a cut down version with two headers. Not sure why it was implemented this way. Seems odd that all the solenoids were not just put onto a single header.

03_sys8_solenoids.jpg03_sys8_solenoids.jpg

System 9 solenoid drives. Eight solenoids in a single header. It should be possible to bridge this with an appropriate connector or small bridge board.

04_sys9_solenoids.jpg04_sys9_solenoids.jpg

System 8 Comma and ~BLANKING signal. U4-PB6 and U4-PB7. The ~BLANKING signal is directly connected.

05_sys8_comma_blanking.jpg05_sys8_comma_blanking.jpg

System 9 uses these the signals differently. U4-PB6 is solenoid #15 and U4-PB7 is solenoid #16. The ~BLANKING signal can be obtained from 1J3-12.

06_sys9_comma_section1.jpg06_sys9_comma_section1.jpg
07_sys9_comma_section2.jpg07_sys9_comma_section2.jpg

This is the problem. The comma signals are U4-PB6 and U4-PB7. These are solenoid #15 and solenoid #16 in a normal full count solenoid board.These signal would need to be directly tapped from the board. This would require surgical precision to get the correct connection point.

It is possible to reproduce this board. I have most of it already in the System 9 CPU board project. It's not cost effective for me to do this. Pennant Fever is the only game that uses this board so all the time and development makes it cost prohibitive. The only way I would consider doing this is if there is demand or the cost is covered. I got plenty of other things that just make this extremely low priority. The other thing with any solution I would make it to use an LED slave display to obviate the need for the high voltage ICs (UDN6184 and UDN7180). I have all of this already done for System 11 alphanumeric display but this is just more cost.

FWIW: I wouldn't take on repair of that board. It would drive me bonkers with the endless sanding and continuity buzzing to verify all the connections in the schematic that have been affected (i.e. pretty much the whole board).

</TL;DR>

1 month later
#15 2 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

Looking at the schematic it looks like Williams subsumed the master display board logic onto the main board. This is evidence from images of the game where the ribbon cables go straight to the plasma slave numeric display.

See below.

It will probably be prohibitively expensive. You would also have to source the UDN7180 ICs.

See following.
So I just took a quick look at the schematic. I have a very good local friend who has this game but it's packed up in storage so I don't have access to the board. I don't think access to a physical board is necessary because the differences are evident from the images.
<TL;DR>
That's right TL;DR. Stop reading now if you don't care.
Here's the analysis for anyone that's interested.
System 8 display output. This is where Williams subsumed the master display board logic.
[quoted image]
System 9 display output. The System 9 board has connectors so it is possible to bridge this. Caveat: see further below.
[quoted image]
System 8 solenoid drives. Eight solenoids are available. This is a cut down version with two headers. Not sure why it was implemented this way. Seems odd that all the solenoids were not just put onto a single header.
[quoted image]
System 9 solenoid drives. Eight solenoids in a single header. It should be possible to bridge this with an appropriate connector or small bridge board.
[quoted image]
System 8 Comma and ~BLANKING signal. U4-PB6 and U4-PB7. The ~BLANKING signal is directly connected.
[quoted image]
System 9 uses these the signals differently. U4-PB6 is solenoid #15 and U4-PB7 is solenoid #16. The ~BLANKING signal can be obtained from 1J3-12.
[quoted image]
[quoted image]
This is the problem. The comma signals are U4-PB6 and U4-PB7. These are solenoid #15 and solenoid #16 in a normal full count solenoid board.These signal would need to be directly tapped from the board. This would require surgical precision to get the correct connection point.
It is possible to reproduce this board. I have most of it already in the System 9 CPU board project. It's not cost effective for me to do this. Pennant Fever is the only game that uses this board so all the time and development makes it cost prohibitive. The only way I would consider doing this is if there is demand or the cost is covered. I got plenty of other things that just make this extremely low priority. The other thing with any solution I would make it to use an LED slave display to obviate the need for the high voltage ICs (UDN6184 and UDN7180). I have all of this already done for System 11 alphanumeric display but this is just more cost.
FWIW: I wouldn't take on repair of that board. It would drive me bonkers with the endless sanding and continuity buzzing to verify all the connections in the schematic that have been affected (i.e. pretty much the whole board).
</TL;DR>

From what I understand, and has been proven, a system 9 board and a sys 9 display driver board can be converted to run a system 8.

#16 2 years ago
Quoted from DumbAss:

wouldn't take on repair of that board. It would drive me bonkers with the endless sanding and continuity buzzing to verify all the connections in the schematic that have been affected (i.e. pretty much the whole board

Yeah... I know this all too well... I have a pennant fever I have been working on that was worse than vdojaqs....

I am finally in the home stretch... Only thing left is sound and lower display. This one was beyond toast, but with no alternative, lots of time with the meter, schematics, and good lighting is the only choice sometimes.

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#17 2 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

From what I understand, and has been proven, a system 9 board and a sys 9 display driver board can be converted to run a system 8.

Yes. The signals are compatible. I imagine you can use a System 6A or System 7 master display board as well. The logic has not changed. It's 8 signals for the BCD, 16 signals for the strobes, 2 signals for the comma/dot and 1 signal for the BLANKING. These are 1J1, 1J2 and 1J3.

Quoted from ralphwiggum:

This one was beyond toast, but with no alternative, lots of time with the meter, schematics, and good lighting is the only choice sometimes.

I used to sing this song. I've repaired some badly damaged System 11 CPU, WPC-89 CPU and WPC-95 CPU boards. I always thought there has to be a better solution. There is. Make your own board. I typically don't repair alkaline damaged boards now. Too much work. There's a better alternative. A new board or in this case ... a bridge of signals between compatible boards.

1 week later
#18 2 years ago

Here is the answer!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wDpqiM6byeekyw09s1HiOXocrVG9AlLY/edit

How to convert a System 9 to be compatible to a System 8 . I am up for the challenge. Who has a working System 9 board they will sell me?

#19 2 years ago

Was working on one this week.

2 weeks later
#20 2 years ago

Ed Cheung repaired my Pennant Fever board about 3 years ago. Quick turnaround, however my board was not as damaged. Good luck!

3 months later
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