Anyone update the speakers on their MMR?

(Topic ID: 143414)

Anyone update the speakers on their MMR?


By cleland

3 years ago



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  • 114 posts
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  • Latest reply 44 days ago by ED-209
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There are 114 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
#1 3 years ago

So, I am loving the game but the sound is lacking bass big time. The sound coming from the backbox speakers sounds good, but I barely hear the sub. I don't want to use an external sub because I have issues with floor space....meaning I don't want anything under my games. Has anyone tried Pinball Pro's original MM kit

http://pinballpro.net/shop/medieval-madness-complete-kit/

or Flipper Fidelity's kit

http://flipperfidelity.com/sound/williams-bally-speaker-systems/williams-bally-complete-replacement-speaker-system-for-wpc95-machines-430.html

I'm not sure these kits will sound/work better with MMR with the newly designed uncompressed stereo hardware.

Thoughts?

#2 3 years ago

hi, i don't know anyone who's replaced them and said there is better Bass from sub, yet.

here's some MMR/LE audio comments:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/mmr-nib-repair-kit

2 months later
#3 3 years ago

Any update on this ?

#4 3 years ago

Panel speakers sounded terrible to me, and even to my wife who noticed the muffled voices immediately. Quick investigation revealed that MMR has two cheap midrange panel speakers, hence no high end. Original MMs had one midrange and one tweeter which, while unbalanced side-to-side, at least provided a fuller frequency range overall. Aftermarket kits tend to use coaxial (2-way, midrange + tweeter) panel speakers.

I didn't want to wait on mail order, so I grabbed a pair of Pioneer TS-G1345R coaxial speakers on sale for $37.49 at Best Buy. They're 4 ohms, as are nearly all 5.25" car speakers I found, but MMR's speakers are 8 ohms. Due to the parallel wiring, MMR's two 8 ohm speakers provide 4 ohms of impedance. Simply replacing them with 4 ohm speakers would provide only 2 ohms of impedance, potentially stressing the amplifier. So I rewired the new speakers in series to provide 8 ohms of impedance.

New panel speakers sound phenomenal, but I felt the bass needed a boost to balance the bright & crisp high end. Alligator clipped a trusty ol' Polk subwoofer to the cabinet speaker, and now the game sounds basically perfect (aside from the startup bong and a few pesky audio bugs).

Thanks to Vince (TheKorn) for his advice on wiring the new speakers in series. His speaker replacement guide can be found here: http://www.thekorn.net/speakers/index.html

#5 3 years ago

I'll second what yancy stated regarding the highs and MMR's midrange speakers. MMR sounds flat due to the lack of a tweeter like the original games had.

I took a different approach than him The original MM had one 5-1/4" speaker on the left and a tweeter on the right. I set my game up like an original, meaning I removed the 5-1/4" speaker on the right side and installed a tweeter in its place. The main reason I did this is because I had a tweeter on hand and could easily improve my sound without having to order and wait on new parts. You also have to install a capacitor on the tweeter so filter low frequencies, I don't remember what value but I used the same as what the original MM used.

Doing this significantly improved the audio. Whatever approach you take, adding a tweeter will make a noticeable difference.

1 week later
#6 3 years ago

Yancy, Stangbat, have you checked the schematics ?

CGC indeed changed the original midrange + tweeter configuration to two cheap midrange. But they left the capacitor of the original design on the right side !??

tweeter_(resized).png

#7 3 years ago

Yancy, I'm about to switch to full range car speakers too. I want to crimp a 4-wire Molex dongle to convert the parallel configuration to serial, to be able to switch back easily to 8 ohm speakers later if I need to.

I plan to wire GRA-ORN to GRA-BLK, GRA-RED to GRA-RED and leave GRA-BLK alone.

Signal would leave the board from SPKL (J6 pin 5), go to GRA-RED, enter the left speaker, go to the right speaker through GRA-BLK, and go back to the board ground through GRA-ORN -> dongle swap -> GRA-BLK (J6 pin 4).

Is that what you did ?

#8 3 years ago
Quoted from Lowrent:

Is that what you did ?

I didn't make a dongle, just changed the wiring when installing the new speakers:

GRA-RED to L+
new jumper wire from L- to R+
R- to GRA-BLK

GRA-ORN and the 2 spare GRA-BLK wires (originally connected to L- ) remain disconnected.

MMR speaker L MMR speaker R

#9 3 years ago
Quoted from yancy:

the 2 spare GRA-BLK wires (originally connected to L- ) remain disconnected

I should clarify, current is still flowing through these wires back to the board, they're just not connected to the left speaker anymore.

#10 3 years ago

Ok thanks, it ends up being the same wiring.
Good thing you used the GRA-RED instead of GRA-ORN if there's indeed a capacitor on the right side (weird).

#11 3 years ago
Quoted from Lowrent:

Good thing you used the GRA-RED instead of GRA-ORN if there's indeed a capacitor on the right side (weird).

Yup, it was pure luck on my part. It's easier to connect L- to R+, and GRA-RED was already going to L+. When you posted the schematic, I knew there was a 50% chance I had the tweeter output going to both of my new speakers. Glad I didn't have to change it.

#12 3 years ago
Quoted from Lowrent:

But they left the capacitor of the original design on the right side !??

Kind of strange but it doesn't really matter, a cap filters low frequencies. The issue is the high end is lacking, so having the cap in place isn't what causes the poor audio quality from MMR. The problem is the game has two midrange speakers and there is no tweeter that can reproduce the high frequencies.

I never saw a cap when I installed the tweeter in my game. Not saying it isn't there somewhere, but I never saw one.

#13 3 years ago

Ok, speaker swap done. I installed 3-way coaxial car speakers.
The original uncompressed sound files now shine in all their glory.
All the voice calls are much much cleaner (the S, CH, F, X sounds are all better).

#14 3 years ago

Can someone post a link to what they are buying?thanks

#15 3 years ago
Quoted from TaylorVA:

Can someone post a link to what they are buying?

I bought these: https://goo.gl/vkb8qc

They were on sale at Best Buy, but it looks like Walmart may be cheaper now. Nothing special about those particular speakers. Any decent 2 or 3-way 5.25" speaker would be a massive improvement.

#16 3 years ago

Like yancy said, any 5¼" coaxial car speakers of some recognisable brand will be an improvement.
The only thing to look for is the color. They are visible through the speaker grill so make sure you don't buy a model with funky colors (http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/michael/blog/0405/040507-SonySpeakers.jpg)

#17 3 years ago

Were modifications to the speaker panel required or were the speaker dimensions /hole locations a perfect fit?

#18 3 years ago

Perfect fit.

#19 3 years ago

Thanks for the reply and documentation! Much appreciated. Time to hit Walfart.

#20 3 years ago

Thanks for the info. Appreciate it.

#21 3 years ago

Tonight I replaced the speakers - about a 20 minute job thanks to the great instructions. Walmart did not have the Pioneer 1345 speakers but they did have the 1344 model. Ten bucks more but they work perfectly and saved me a trip across town. If you do buy from Walmart, be sure to compare the shelf price to their website, which was $9 less and they will honor in the store.
The only mistake I made was not to keep the two gray/black wires connected after I removed them from the left speaker. No big deal, just had to solder the two wires together and insulate.
As previously stated, the speakers add instant clarity and make you realize a subwoofer is needed. The call outs are also improved and will be that much better when the software update arrives.
Again, thanks to everyone who worked this out and presented on Pinside!

#22 3 years ago

OK, thanks Yancy I'm going to wire-up two new coaxial 5 1/4" the way you did.

Are there any options for more bass without using an external sub? I'm thinking a shallow mount sub to clear the troll mechs.

Possibly something like this?

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_130TSS2002/Pioneer-TS-SW2002D2.html

It's got dual 2ohm voice coils, so if I wire it in series I should get 4ohms like the stock crappy sub, right?

#23 3 years ago

Are there no 8 ohms car speakers, so that I can avoid changing the cable configuration and just change the speakers itself?

#24 3 years ago
Quoted from Zora:

Are there no 8 ohms car speakers

Generally, no. Automotive power is generally 12v, so in order to power stuff with the low voltage they use 4 ohm speakers instead of 8 ohm.

The amp in MMR is tiny bugger on a single surface mount chip (TPA3116). I don't remember if the speakers are in series or parallel for the backbox and I don't have time to look right now. The specs state the amp will run 2 x 50w into 4 ohms but you don't want to blow it by cranking two 4 ohm speakers if they are wired in parallel. Someone double check if you have time. Be careful if you are using a 4 ohm speakers.

#25 3 years ago
Quoted from Zora:

Are there no 8 ohms car speakers, so that I can avoid changing the cable configuration and just change the speakers itself?

I've only seen these 5.25 coaxial speakers in 8ohms

ebay.com link » Harley Oem 77029 01 Speakers Radio Car 8 Ohm 5 25 Electraglide Flht Flt Ultra Fl

#26 3 years ago

The speakers I purchased contained wire leads that were used to create the jumper Yancy mentions. Just be careful to ensure proper connection (+ to -). Very easy.

#27 3 years ago

A semi-related question for those in the know..

Is there a similar speaker alternative for LOTR and does it make sense to do? I have done Flipper Fidelity upgrades on other machines but was hoping to avoid the expense. Just wondering....

#28 3 years ago
Quoted from PinScott:

A semi-related question for those in the know..
Is there a similar speaker alternative for LOTR and does it make sense to do? I have done Flipper Fidelity upgrades on other machines but was hoping to avoid the expense. Just wondering....

There are cheaper alternatives however you gotta do your homework so you don't mess things up. I just go with the flipper fidelity sub on a Stern and don't think there is the need for the full kit. External subs will sound the best however if you are like me and don't want wires everywhere then you have to compromise.

#29 3 years ago

Well, I wanted to do some testing, so I pulled my Rockford Fosgate Shallow Mount 8" Dual 2ohm Voice Coil Sub from my 4runner and wired it in series. The result was better, but still no where near the bass of my Walking Dead with the Flipper Fidelity kit.
Granted the Rockford Fosgate is not a free air sub, and the Pioneer I was looking at is, so that might might make it a little better.
I was happy it cleared the troll mechs though even on top of the stock spacer on the cabinet.

#30 3 years ago

Pinball Pro offers MMr related speakers as upgrade. Has anybody installed those and can tell his experience regarding quality, possibly compared to other speakers mentioned here in this thread?

#31 3 years ago

I used to put my own in the WPC machines. Typically Rockford Fosgate since they have the tweeters more sunken and fit better.
And a 8" or 5" sub then a Pyle amp all for under $100. Tap into the sound board line out (pre speakers) and it rocks.
Total treble, bass and panning from bass to top speakers adjustments.

For my MMR I got 2 rockfords and a 8" bass for under $50. Gonna do a replacement no extra amp to see how it works.

IMGP3133_(resized).jpg

1 month later
#33 3 years ago
Quoted from MrSanRamon:

Parts Express has a few 8 ohm 5.25 diameter speakers. Wondering if anyone has tried any of these?

Those are all midrange and/or woofers. The issue with MMR stock panel speakers is the lack of a tweeter, so I'm not sure those would solve the problem.

#34 3 years ago

OK, I am ordering the Pioneer speakers for my MMR, but what about a powered subwoofer? What do you recommend? Does MMR have an audio line out for an external sub or do you have to use the wires that go to the current woofer in the machine? (I don't have my machine yet, so I have no schematics)

#35 3 years ago

Most everyone myself included buy the Polk audio psw10 off of amazon. All you have to do is use about 10 ft of speaker wire with a pair of alligator clips. Put the clips on the positive and negative of the cabinet speaker and feed the wire through the grill on the bottom of the cab to the external sub and then hook them up to the right speaker level outputs. If you have any questions feel free to give me a call

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#36 3 years ago

Thank you. Would it not be betterto disconnect the wires from the cheap cabinet mounted woofer?

Also, don't you want the "speaker - in" instead of output?

#37 3 years ago

I've seen them put on the ins and outputs. I tried them both and there wasn't any difference to me. I have a friend who has around 10 subs to pins and all were to the outs that's why I put mine that way and they sound awesome! Regarding the wires to the cheep originals. You can disconnect them but you don't have to. Most people just piggy back them with the alligator clips.

#38 3 years ago

Does Stern use the same size speakers? I just ordered a GB LE and was going to upgrade it's sound system as well.

#39 3 years ago
Quoted from glasairpilot:

Also, don't you want the "speaker - in" instead of output?

Yes. The output might work too, but I'd just do it the right way instead. Why risk it?

#40 3 years ago

I replaced my speakers today and my speaker panel with an original with Williams logo, I used the Pioneer speakers from Yancy's post and wired them up using his pictures and guide, thanks

I would say that the upgrade was worthwhile, it doesn't make a huge difference but it is noticeable and does make the call outs sound a bit better. I am also running the updated software that is supposed to fix the sound, overall I am now quite happy with the sound and callouts, I don't know if I will bother with a subwoofer.....who am I kidding I probably will get a sub

Those push nut retainers are a prick 28 of them in total to do a speaker panel change out.

2 months later
#41 2 years ago

I replaced the original speakers with the Pioneer speakers along with a Polk 10 and it made a huge difference. I would highly suggest that you remove the wires from the cabinet subwoofer and solder them to the subwoofer wires. It does make a big difference in the sound. Also installed a cointaker cabinet flasher kit with the green lead tied to the moat flasher, white lead to the left ramp flasher, and the blue and red leads tied to the red flashers on the back of the playfied.

The light show is incredible in the room now when the lightning flashes, etc. Really like this machine.

#42 2 years ago
Quoted from glasairpilot:

Does Stern use the same size speakers? I just ordered a GB LE and was going to upgrade it's sound system as well.

No, Stern use 4" speaker and not 5.25".

#43 2 years ago
Quoted from yancy:

I didn't make a dongle, just changed the wiring when installing the new speakers:
GRA-RED to L+
new jumper wire from L- to R+
R- to GRA-BLK
GRA-ORN and the 2 spare GRA-BLK wires (originally connected to L- ) remain disconnected.

I wired it this way and it sounds good; however, someone brought it to my attention that wiring in series this way to get the correct impedance also loses the stereo "DCS" sound channeling. So, I go from stereo to mono. Is this correct?

#44 2 years ago

I found 8 ohm 5.25" speakers. These would maybe swap out perfectly for the stock MMR speakers.

Do you think these would be an improvement? Or just a lateral pass at best.

http://www.speakerworks.com/5_25_Closed_Back_Midrange_p/gm858.htm

#45 2 years ago
Quoted from Gatinho:

I found 8 ohm 5.25" speakers. These would maybe swap out perfectly for the stock MMR speakers.
Do you think these would be an improvement? Or just a lateral pass at best.
http://www.speakerworks.com/5_25_Closed_Back_Midrange_p/gm858.htm

Those have no tweeter, so not going to help much. The Pioneer or other 5.25 with tweeters makes sense, but I am wondering about the sound quality with my question above.

#46 2 years ago

If you wired it that way and it sounds great WTF are you worried about?

Standing that far away from stereo or mono spaced as such do a blind test and see if you can tell.

I did the same all I question is why are they supplied it with such shitty speakers that we need to replace them with cheap eBay rubbish and find that is much better.

#47 2 years ago
Quoted from Rat:

If you wired it that way and it sounds great WTF are you worried about?
Standing that far away from stereo or mono spaced as such do a blind test and see if you can tell.
I did the same all I question is why are they supplied it with such shitty speakers that we need to replace them with cheap eBay rubbish and find that is much better.

LOL, not sure. I guess I want it as perfect as possible. It comes with stereo (I assume) and while it sounds good now with the upgraded speakers I am wondering if it would sound better hooked up as designed. How does a person modify 4 OHM speakers (for stereo) when the system calls for 8 OHM?

As for why they use cheap speakers - well look at what is built everywhere. Stern, JJP, GCG all use junk single cone speakers along with a cheap unpowered subwoofer. The sound in all of them is horrible IMO.

I think a good LE option would be good stereo speakers along with a built in POWERED subwoofer in the cabinet and a headphone jack. Arcades do not want or need this, but for home use it would be great.

#48 2 years ago
Quoted from glasairpilot:

It comes with stereo (I assume)

Nope, mono. Williams didn't switch to stereo until Pinball 2000. You're not losing anything.

#49 2 years ago
Quoted from yancy:

Nope, mono. Williams didn't switch to stereo until Pinball 2000. You're not losing anything.

Ah, thank you! I do remember that now. My RFM sounded great.

3 months later
#50 2 years ago

For those who haven't seen the stock speaker, a picture is below. This is a mid-range driver that doesn't even have a whizzer (which is the inexpensive way to get some treble compared to a dedicated tweeter). This is why voices sound muffled.

20160830_191006 (resized).jpg

I purchased a Kicker 40CS54 amazon.com link »
because it has a sensitivity rating of 90db/W/m compared to the Pioneer which is rated at 86db/W/m. Assuming these numbers haven't been fudged (and that's a big IF), installing a speaker with 3dB higher sensitivity should be equivalent to doubling the amplifier's power output, which can be important in such a low fidelity installation.

The improvement in the treble is immediately noticeable. I had no idea there was a snare drum in the main theme! Paired with an existing Polk external subwoofer, this sound is as good as I can hope for.

Here is a picture of the Kicker speaker behind the grill:
20160830_191851 (resized).jpg

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