Wizard of Oz
Jersey Jack, 2013You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider iceman44.
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Or is this like lottery winners where you want to keep your identity secret 
Or do we have a bigger controversy brewing? I know, really don't need another Woz delivery thread but some day one early adopters are getting antsy....
Can't wait to play this baby!
Quoted from PopBumperPete:I know of two people who ordered the game before it was publicly announced , neither one is going to post here that their machine is on its way.
Why? I'm assuming its already on the way then since shipping has already started this week...
A "gag order" is ridiculous...so what if the code is incomplete, we already know that, AND every little deficiency is going to get ripped to shreds, we already know that.....
Quoted from RobT:Answer: because Stern gets ripped to shreds with every deficiency, especially with regard to incomplete code. Many WOZ buyers indicated in various WOZ threads that one reason that they bought WOZ was because it would have complete code, unlike Stern. When you add to that the fact that Jack said that he wouldn't release a pin with incomplete code, and it looks like he will, people are going to point out the hypocrisy. Rightly so, IMO.
Exactly, and deservedly so, it was one of those dumb salesy comments that is going to come back and bite him hard......I think its funny and will make for some good drama for a while.... 
My point is, ship the pins and take your lumps and quit the secrecy and "gag orders"....
Quoted from PopBumperPete:because they are both modest people, they signesd on to support Jack, not for 'I got my machine first' bragging rights
It's doesn't have to be about "bragging rights"....the rest of us owners would like to know the details of what, when, how, etc....so we can guage when we are getting ours...I don't care if it comes from them or Jack
Well, you guys know that I have been one of the biggest kool aid drinkers and cheerleaders from day one!
At this point, I'm thrilled to be getting close to receiving the pin I paid for and can't wait to enjoy it...
So much of the whining, bitching and complaining we are seeing now could have been avoided by Jack himself with some detailed communication as to what position you have in the delivery order, its not like they haven't had two years to get that info out......the communication aspect of the whole process is getting really frustrating at this point, Jack says pins will begin shipping this month "period" and then we get the mysterious "dozen phone calls" made...just tell us where we are at....
I love the project, its gonna be awesome but this idea that some people have about it being such a "thankless endeavor" and all the tough issues that go into making a pin is mind boggling to me, ok, I get that and thank you all you guys, but.........YOU..........decided to go into this business, accept our money, then take deposits on pin #2.......it's a ...............BUSINESS........no excuses,
And like any BUSINESS, a little bit of accurate communication goes a long way!!!!!
You can't always just tell everybody what they want to hear....judgment day is upon us, let's go
Quoted from pindome:This seems to be another classic case if Jack would communicate a list of the order that games were ordered and ship in that order a lot of misunderstandings will be averted.
Ice you could contact him personally on this point.
Seems simple to me, just a list.....we have daily contact, input and communication with Jpop and I don't know what is so hard about this, but I'll wait until the fallout over the weekend and see what happens and then call.....
Quoted from RobT:I'm shocked by this latest development.
Ha! Why would anybody be shocked.....
Quoted from gambit3113:He definitely has counsel that can draw up documents.
I'm thinking they should be working on making pins and not drawing up legal docs....just saying...
Quoted from CraZ4Pin:You guys need to chill out. This is ridiculous. There is NO OTHER group of professionals that could start a new pinball company from scratch, in a shorter period of time, and with a quality anywhere near that of WOZ. Yes, Jack has underestimated the potential delays (namely, suppliers) but so what. They have a remarkable game on the brink of full production that can potentially revive the hobby we love and you guys look for every little thing to criticize like a bunch of adolescent brats. The doubters have been here since 01/2011 and even with dozens of prototypes now on location and people excited, articles in major publications being written about pinball again, you still criticize and post such hatred of JJP? It's pathetic.
If you bought WOZ and have a problem ... go ask for a refund. Right NOW. You will get it. But you won't, will you? Because you know the game is remarkable and you're only venting your childish frustration that your game didn't show up yesterday. For those that didn't buy WOZ, you're venting your frustration that you didn't buy one. Either way, WAH.
It's been long enough, no more excuses, BS, delays, misinformation and I don't want to here a F ing peep about any defensive refund crybaby stuff
Quoted from gambit3113:It would allow you to make decisions now on issues and how to proceed, in case of your incapacity or senility in the future.
There are a lot of pinsiders that need a statutory durable power of attorney...right now...
Quoted from ChadTower:There is no "sense of entitlement" problem when a person has entered into a contract, paid up front, and the product was not delivered in the timeline laid out within the contract. That's not social entitlement. That is legal entitlement.
Most vendors deliver on time, and if they do not, there are concessions made to the customers so that they are not left in this exact state of WTF. The simple business fact here is that JJP is abusing the faith of their customer base and they are unhappy about it. The only reason his business hasn't failed is because of the nearly unique nature of his product. That has bought him a certain amount of leverage but that leverage is disappearing quickly.
Honestly, I don't get this "sense of entitlement" argument on ANY level....Jack is a great guy, we know that, its not personal, but HE started the business and raised millions of dollars to create a pinball company that he felt would be better than the competition...this isn't charity, or free government hand out stuff....
Like PT said, "swallow a little pride" and quit letting your alligator mouth overload your hummingbird rear end....
Just simply come and give us the truth and accurate information, with pictures etc...that's all, why is that too much to ask....
As for Hitch, I feel for you and my prayers are with you, I lose too many clients to cancer but I also have several that have survived and have lived long happy lives...keep the faith and live every to the max..
I would also move spots with you if it would help...
Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:Ted no offense intended but the community has given Jack and the team plenty of slack. A ton of slack IMO. I have multiple friends on the WOZ buyer list that are starting to get frustrated with the misinformation or totally unreliable info that has been released regarding when they will see this pin at their door. And rightfully so, they have had thousands of dollars tied up in this project for a very very long time now. IMO at this point they have a right to bitch about it.
I'm not about to get a refund after waiting this long! And I don't want to hear about some defensive attitude. Can we just get some truth and reliable information straight from the horses mouth, I totally fine with waiting longer if I know the truth, I'm sick of the BS, good lord the truth would sound so much better rather than talking in circles.
I realize that in two years Woz and Hobbit should be really great pins, that's not the point, its almost like Jack Nicholson telling Tom Cruise..."YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH"!
"Hi guys, sorry for any additional delays, we are working to get these pins out as quickly as we possibly can and seem to be running into a few issues that are out of our control such as delivery of the game boards, thus, I'm not sure when production will start taking place....I'll be sending out an email to each of you guys letting you know where you are at in the delivery position....the game will ship with incomplete code for Woz as there were many factors that I didn't anticipate as a start up pin maker, hang in there with me and we will make this complete via USB download with frequent updates.....thanks again for your patience and support"
I feel much better now telling myself this over and over again...
Quoted from jarjarisgod:I think I need to get me some hooch to make sense of what I've read in this thread. Any recommendations?
Haha, yep, sometimes Hooch is required to be on here, not tonight for me, working tomorrow
The whole thing has turned into and episode of the Twilight Zone...I have no answers, I just repeat in my mind what I said above.. 
Quoted from DCFAN:Ice, where is that posted? I do not see it in the owner's group or e-mail.
I was just hired as Jack's publicist and that's what I came up with.... It sounded good to me and I'm just going to go with that for now....
Quoted from bobbyconover:Thanks for filling us in on all of this. I've always wondered what the many deleted posts on the JJP forums were about, and I always assumed they were much worse than what you're describing.
I'm in a similar situation to the one you're in with your family, but in my case I'm in it with the location where I'm planning to operate my WOZ. I've been operating games there for more than a year now, and one of their reasons for initially choosing me over some of the other operators was that they wanted WOZ and knew I had ordered one. They have probably asked me when it's coming a hundred times since then, and it's always an awkward conversation. I have to give them the latest dubious delivery estimate each time, all the while knowing it's probably not going to happen. I'm pretty sure they know it's not my fault it has taken so long, but I get the feeling that to some degree they might blame me or think that I'm the one stringing them along. At this point I think they're convinced that I just got scammed and that the game will never exist. The whole thing is pretty embarrassing to say the least, not to mention that a year has passed (since the original delivery estimate) during which I've been able to make none of my money back.
I know I could just request a refund, but in a way that would be the ultimate screw-over for the location owners who have spent all this time waiting for it and hyping it up to customers, telling everyone that we'll be getting one. So I'm basically trapped. If I bail now, I look like the bad guy.
Good luck and see my quote above...maybe type it up and print it out and hand it to folks whenever they ask you...pay no attention to this "refund" talk, I use to use that argument as well but its way to late for that now......
Quoted from sammiesguys:I agree with frolic. You see how difficult it has been for Jack to produce a machine with far more resources and experience than Skit-B. Reading about WOZ should make anyone realize that Predator will likely require a lot of patience.
As long as the guys keep posting, keep us informed, and are straightforward, I will have no problems. In the meantime, Im going to play the other great games that are already out there. Which is a pretty nice option to have.
BINGO....exactly.....straightforward, we know they are all good guys trying to build a company.........and "straightforward", communication is the key, some get it like Jpop and Skit B, some don't....if JJP is having such a hard time then "patience" will be needed big time with the other guys....meanwhile, Stern has to be ROTFLHAO....
Salesmen - Their job is to sell the products, point out the highlights and hide the defects...
Business Owner/Founder - The entrepreneur that gets things rolling, the labour of love, the visionary, the one that risks it all for the sake of building something better and bigger...
CEO - The person that runs the daily operations of the business, the details, the coach, ordering parts, making sure the budgets and timelines are on track, problem solvers, communicators, you name it....
SkitB, Jpop and Spooky have to be all 3, good luck to them and so far things seem to be integrating well....with far less funds, operational capability and other help..
For whatever reasons, and I'm sure the list is long, it appears that leg 3, the CEO function, is the part where JJP is obviously struggling from my perspective....I've always found that when you make mistakes, it's not a bad thing, you learn from them and try and avoid them in the future....from that standpoint, with all the learning going on Hobbit should be a great pin that gets delivered with not many issues at all, we'll see
Quoted from pinlawyer:Suppliers are unpredictable and unreliable. Subcontractors are unpredictable and unreliable. If you're building a custom home, expect it to take twice the time and twice the money. And along the way, expect to be disappointed at least a dozen times. When it's over, you're going to have your dream home. We will not stop until your dream is fulfilled.
Those are the words I have advised a custom homebuilder friend of mine to print in his brochures if he wants never to be sued. That's what he asked me to do--"write me a conspicuous disclaimer so I don't get sued for relying on the broken promises of my subs--they all suck."
I believe that applies to Jack as well. If he weren't such a good salesman, he'd be underpromising and overdelivering to manage the expectations of his customers. But this is his first rodeo. Give the man a break.
So true, I do the same thing with my clients as well! And I live by the motto in my business of "underpromise and overdeliver"....
We all realize its his first rodeo and at some point of falling off the horse dozens of times you gotta start learning and this is coming from the king of Woz kool aid drinkers...some unpredictability is very understandable but some of the timelines and comments related to them over the past two years is baffling....
It's like college basketball, at some point late in the season, freshmen really aren't freshmen anymore....see Michigan win over Kansas yesterday
Quoted from ckorth:there is a simple solution for people who are upset over this - do not keep your game - sell it and move on and put your money where your comfort level is in terms of what business practice you want to support.
No way!!!....I have supported this business for 2 1/2 years, I simply want MUCH better communication...and then I want what I paid for...period....
So.....I applaud Jack for taking a stance on the Woz forum and for me that is enough said and I'll wait patiently and happily for Woz
Terry got it right, Rommy, etc. we all grow our businesses one day and piece at a time and its an evolution from day one, I think back where I was on day one and now and can't believe the journey I've taken, the fun I've had etc. and all the struggles then and now make it so worthwhile...
As JJP fixes the speed bumps and puts the process in place, its going to be a phenomenal thing to look forward to for pins #2 and beyond....
All this said, there is nothing wrong with being CRITICAL folks, how you take the criticism and grow from is the measure of a man! Here is the real deal in a nutshell..
My dad was a throwback coach and he was brutal to his players during games, not because he disliked them but because he wanted to win and have them do better...he had great chemistry with his players because after the game he would be laughing and joking with them, they respected him and knew it wasn't personal, those players shared the same passion for success on and off the court....
We all share the same passion for pinball and its future success with JJP, we can holler, scream, whine, cry, complain, whatever, but whether or not you have skin in the game or not, the fact that we are critical is not personal and a positive thing....I don't need some yes man telling me what I'm doing right all day and patting me on the back, be critical of me and tell me what I'm doing wrong so I can fix it....
So, like my dad would tell players that complained about being yelled at or criticized......"You better worry about the day that I stop getting on you, that means I don't care anymore, you are on the end of the bench and soon to be out of a job!"..........
So based on all the criticism of JJP, Stern, Jpop, Skitb, Spooky....I think its a good thing and means they are doing something right because we care so passionately!
Rock and roll brothers...
Nobody should "slander" anybody....it means speaking some "untruth" that causes "actual damages" and then the damages have to quantified and good luck with that, punitive damages occur when the slander is malicious and for example causes the other party not to be able to do their job....and then you would have to assume there wouldn't be counterclaims such as Promissory Estoppel, etc.
Not even worth bringing up here..........
Quoted from BackFlipper:I just read Jack's post and I can tell it is directly from the heart. I could feel his pain. I will wait longer for this game and I will support him like I support Joe at Laseriffic or Terry at Pinball Life. It will come and it will be great. It will change this industry for the better - forever.
Peace!
Jim
That's a good thing...
Quoted from spfxted:AND Predator too!
And RAZA with Jpop, all US made....
Quoted from rommy:Pinball is a blast - I can wait for WoZ now that AC/DC is here.
Amen, having fun....what doesn't kill us makes us stronger!
Quoted from TomGWI:I thought Magic Girl was about 12-15 games and BHZA about 100-150.
RAZA is 124 with the Cointaker version and Magic Girl i think is 17....
Looking at 1 yr on the schedule for RAZA now and will probably be longer, you look at all the crap inside of these things and its amazing pins are still getting made..
Quoted from chessiv:I believe he really does want to make a great pinball machine. It's obvious he had almost no clue what was really involved. I don't ever think he's been out to screw anyone out of their money. The best thing he could do right now is shut-up, keep his head down and finish the machine.
I think he has gotten the point and that's what I would expect to see...at the end of the day I think we will see game changing greatness out of this company...let's all hope...his heart is in the right place and the results will speak for themselves...
Btw, that AC/DC hurdle is gonna be a tough one to overcome, what a great pin....
Quoted from spfxted:Is the AC/DC LE much better than the regular version? At the Bask Bar I played the version without the mini-playfield in the basement. I was not that impressed.
Not sure about the pro Ted or the differences, I've got a ton of games in on AC/DC premium and its everything everybody raves about......I don't think the Bell is on the pro or the train, not sure..
Ok, so while I'm watching the NCAA's and drinking some Hooch (beer) let me give you one more basketball analogy....
Jack has become a celebrity, magazines, papers, shows, etc....
You are going to get criticism from all sides no matter what, regardless of what you say and do....people in the public eye need to have thick skin and try and avoid "keeping score"...some of my dad's best friends to this day are media people (we draft our fantasy baseball team in the Denver Media league tomorrow night and have been doing it for 25 years!), who at times blistered him, in doing their job, he had an uncanny ability to ignore....
His best friend from the Carolina days, Larry Brown, was the exact opposite, Larry would save articles that writers wrote about him and held it against them for years...Larry is coaching at SMU now, with championships at Kansas and Detroit....he's burned a whole lot of friends and bridges and is left with that...I can remember one time when I was with both of them and Coach Dean Smith had sent Larry a letter with the newspaper article in which he responded negatively, circled Larry's quoted text and said "don't say these things" We all make mistakes, do we learn from them...Man, what lessons I've tried to learn and have had difficulty with over the years...
People couldn't stand Coach Pop here in SA in the early years because he came across like a d*ck, and sometimes still does (great guy), win 5 championships and you become the best at what you do....time takes care of a lot of things, business and progress is an evolution and in the end your hard work, dedication, sacrifice and great attitude pays off...
I realize most pinheads know nothing about basketball, if so, disregard this
Quoted from Rarehero:Wow, way to cut down my quoted list of differences so that you could make a joke at my expense. I know you're bored waiting for your non-existent pre-orders to show up, but don't take it out on me.
The "dancin band" is a joke...get it...yeah I'm bored and you are way too sensitive 
Ted, AC/DC premium is great...
My wife's comment when she first saw it at Eric's was "there's a lot of stuff in that pinball machine, how much does it cost"....and then after test playing it she said looks like we are getting a new pin
We of course grew up with AC/DC....
The cannon mod is a must, the stock one looks like one of those firecracker boxes you get on the 4th of July, the tanks, cannons, etc....
Somebody will probably make a dancing band mod or some like the old school cheese factor
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Boerne, TX