At least one of your posts still remains, so you haven't been completely wiped out of existance:

On Dec 8, 1:10 pm, Jim T wrote:

> Does not look like betas in December.
> Does not look like shipping in March.
> Does not look like a house or feet that can be easily manufactured.
> DOES look a little like the Rolex I bought for $200 after a night of
> drinking...

> Anyone else a little concerned?

(As a minor aside... between July 1st and July 31th 2011, the price for WOZ was $7000, not $7500. That price didn't come into effect until August 1st, 2011. Regardless, if you've been unhappy for so long, you absolutely should not have hung around. Simply get your money back and move on to greener pastures.)

This whole JJP phenomenon blows my mind! This is not in any way meant to disparage Pinchroma's personal skills and talents (which I know nothing about) but: (1) What kind of supposedly for-profit enterprise motivates significant volunteerism like that? (so kudos to Jack I suppose), but (2) What the hell kind of business is he running where he lets people who he has no real influence over "pitch in" in a critical role on something with millions ($) on the line and thousands of people potentially affected? I mean, this isn't an Amish freaking barn raising, is it??? What a strange story this has been!...

And with that, I bid youz a good night. (it's ok, we'll start up early tomorrow...)

Uh, I think Alex is an expert in his field and Jack is happy to have his input. (NOW good night)

Sorry, man. It's a bigger picture - about running a professional business not writing some code... I hope the magic finally happens for everyone - there's a lot of desperation in the air around here...

You think I can make a profit? Remember, I paid $8100 with Illinois sales tax. I guess I would sell with enough return, because I could explain to everyone thay I got a return on an investment and save face.

Problem: we didn't all invest in a company. We bought pinball machines. If we all invested, we would have equity in the operation with possible future profits. Jack made us "feel" like investors, but we are not. We financed an operation interest free. We continue to do so. Why is he already taking deposits on Hobbit? I won't give any theories. You can speculate. If someone wants my early spot, show me a return on my investment and you can have it. Jim

Why ruin your marriage, or pull your hair out over a toy? Just sell it or ask Jack for your cash back...end of story...

I read your post and that sucks. At this point I would just stick with it if I were you. But I couldn't help but think of this when I got toward the end of it:

What the hell is going on? I thought there were 12 pins delivered this week? Also I thought Jack was going to give us an update on Friday? This journey has just entered the twilight zone. To all you guys who say just give Jack a call or just ask for a refund. We all know what you're trying to do.

Pappy

What would that be?

I'm in for Hobbit, but if I don't like the way shit is going, I'll just get something else, instead of crying about it...

Oh come on man give me a break. Stop with the BS. You just don't want people to complain. Of course you're going to say we are all crying. I'm not going to let my 6.5K go for nothing. I've waited for my game for over two years. I will wait until the end. I will tell people how I feel good or bad. Lately it's been bad.

Pappy

I don't care at all, the guy just said it's caused fights with his family and seems distraught. I just said it's not worth ruining his life over...it's just a game.

I want the game to kickass, I love what Jack is doing, that's why I'm in for the Hobbit. You have me pegged wrong man...

I totally understand why he's complaining, I just let him know how to fix it easily...

I put $6500 down on Hobbit already..but if it takes to long, the layout looks like crap, etcetc...I will just get a different game...maybe Metallica, Star Trek, Zombie game, who knows...I won't let it ruin my life..

true that's how I read it also ^

It's cool. I was just commenting on the generic just get your money back comment. So tired of hearing that. No pin is worth ruining your life over.

Pappy

@ the people saying ring/email Jack

I tried that last year, all I received was the line that they were running at the time (that games would ship by the end of the year)

3 weeks later came the announcement that one of the circuit boards had to be redesigned and that game were going to ship in 90 days

...oh no, make that 110 days...

...end of March...

...boards will definitely be here April 8

Orange since you "KNOW NOTHING" maybe you should find out first before you make yourself look like a fool with a post like this. ----- To Late!

He should rephrase and say that they hope to get boards by April 8. You would think they would have learned by now.

That's the whole point, isn't it? I mean when people complain the game's taking too long and people respond with "get your money back", that's not the correct answer.

But when someone posts a diatribe that they've been lied to, disrespected, has gotten into fights with his wife over it, lost "credibility" with his family, says he'd rather have spent the money on vacations or his kids' college funds... and yet he's done nothing... I personally think that's very worthy of a "why the f*@$ haven't you gotten your money back yet" post.

I'm going with D) none of the above.

I think it was wrong of them to come up with release dates and take people's money PIF knowing full well they would not even come close to those dates. If they didn't know better then they were clearly in over their head at least at those stages of the project.

I want them to be successful but not if they are going to take advantage of the community on their future projects and make pinheads pay in full well before seeing a finished product on every future pin. And I know that's just like my opinion man. I truly hope it works out that all that hung in there absolutely love it whenever they do get it without a doubt.

Thanks for filling us in on all of this. I've always wondered what the many deleted posts on the JJP forums were about, and I always assumed they were much worse than what you're describing.

I'm in a similar situation to the one you're in with your family, but in my case I'm in it with the location where I'm planning to operate my WOZ. I've been operating games there for more than a year now, and one of their reasons for initially choosing me over some of the other operators was that they wanted WOZ and knew I had ordered one. They have probably asked me when it's coming a hundred times since then, and it's always an awkward conversation. I have to give them the latest dubious delivery estimate each time, all the while knowing it's probably not going to happen. I'm pretty sure they know it's not my fault it has taken so long, but I get the feeling that to some degree they might blame me or think that I'm the one stringing them along. At this point I think they're convinced that I just got scammed and that the game will never exist. The whole thing is pretty embarrassing to say the least, not to mention that a year has passed (since the original delivery estimate) during which I've been able to make none of my money back.

I know I could just request a refund, but in a way that would be the ultimate screw-over for the location owners who have spent all this time waiting for it and hyping it up to customers, telling everyone that we'll be getting one. So I'm basically trapped. If I bail now, I look like the bad guy.

I foresee a future problem.

The people who are much further down the line are still going to be waiting for their WOZ and there will already be a second hand market as people at the front start to sell and trade theirs.

I thought about the Hobbit but in the end decided I would rather buy a finished product I can see. Same goes for Stern now as well - will wait until code finished.

I give a thumbs up when I agree with something someone says. I didn't realize I needed a your approval. Good, bad, ugly I can see points to both sides.

Didn't you read his post? He said to STFU.

Relax. I don't see anywhere where he's objecting to your use of "thumbs up". As far as I read it, he's saying he can't make sense of your post (the top one I quote here - read it again) and there needs to be the equivalent of a "WTF" button to indicate confusion over a post!

Pindome, Perhaps you could learn to spell before you attempt to slam someone with a post like this - TOO LATE!

I've seen many posts complaining about the business model of requiring upfront payment. I don't think the company would have been started any other way. It's unfortunate that the pin is delayed, many excuses are made, and deadline are not met. But everyone who bought this game took a risk (like those with money in with Jpop) with an unknown pinball designer and manufacturer.

I have sympathy for those who are having family or business relationship problems as a result.

Please god, dont let any of this BS happen with Predator. I swear, i would cry like a 5 year old girl for a month.

I feel for each and every one of you folk that are gutted right now, and hope the final result will come at a point that pleases you all at the very least.

It may, and probably will, but we didn't pay in advance for it. My wife and I won't fight over the $250 deposit, so it will be an easier pill to swallow any delays.

I feel for the woz buyers... I understand just hanging in there. I wouldn't be asking for my money back at this stage either, but I wouldn't be happy about yet another deadline missed.

I am relaxed.

Since no one can make sense of my post, I will just quote RobT's. He summed up my thoughts pretty well.

I love when a mod tells someone to STFU and stay positive. Add it to the list.

Changed my post so it is more understandable.

Two thumbs up (if I had a second identity here, which I do not) butI can only give one...

I agree with frolic. You see how difficult it has been for Jack to produce a machine with far more resources and experience than Skit-B. Reading about WOZ should make anyone realize that Predator will likely require a lot of patience.

As long as the guys keep posting, keep us informed, and are straightforward, I will have no problems. In the meantime, Im going to play the other great games that are already out there. Which is a pretty nice option to have.

Two and a half years and no machine! Missed deadlines, games shipping with incomplete code. Taking money on the next game and the first one isn't finished. The saga goes on.

Would any company or LLC in their right mind have the positions of Owner/founder, salesman and CEO filled by the same person at one time?

You forgot Assembly line worker. I'm sure he will be out there helping build machine to recoup some of his lost profits because of the two year delay

Suppliers are unpredictable and unreliable. Subcontractors are unpredictable and unreliable. If you're building a custom home, expect it to take twice the time and twice the money. And along the way, expect to be disappointed at least a dozen times. When it's over, you're going to have your dream home. We will not stop until your dream is fulfilled.

Those are the words I have advised a custom homebuilder friend of mine to print in his brochures if he wants never to be sued. That's what he asked me to do--"write me a conspicuous disclaimer so I don't get sued for relying on the broken promises of my subs--they all suck."

I believe that applies to Jack as well. If he weren't such a good salesman, he'd be underpromising and overdelivering to manage the expectations of his customers. But this is his first rodeo. Give the man a break.

Orange that's it? An extra "o" that's all you got --- SOO SAD!

Everyone wants to see this succeed. Its good for pinball butt... Also I liked the Hobbit movie , but I will buy one when the games is actually produced.

Isn't leaving $6500-7500 with him, despite it taking "twice the time" giving the man a break? I admittedly didn't give him that much of a break, but we didn't see money being pulled en masse.

Hey JJ (GAP) - Yes it may be a long journey and mistakes have been made but lets not exactly throw stones from the glass house in which you operate and built as a primary distributor for Stern - in terms of broken promises, lower quality bill of materials, and numerous code release issues from Stern. Both companies have and will make mistakes - its how they learn from them and don't repeat the same mistakes - the free market will sort out the winners and losers in this race. Ask Gary when he started Data East to compete in the market at the time - was a long journey and many mistakes were made as well and he evolved from there. Jack has made mistakes with communication and I'm sure he will learn from that - there is a simple solution for people who are upset over this - do not keep your game - sell it and move on and put your money where your comfort level is in terms of what business practice you want to support. I for one will support a company that is trying to evolve the market and product category and working to make a quality product from bill of materials to software............. mis-communications, delays and all

The fact is, if it wasn't for the customer (Pinball hobbyist) buying this machine, or the countless people who devoted free time to help him out, just to be a part of this project, this company would never have gotten off the ground and would not be here right now. The pinball community has supported Jack and we have given him a break by fronting the money and investing in him so he can start this project.

Again, I want him to succeed so I can purchase a hobbit.

ckorth, JJ is GEXchange not GAP. I don't have any dogs in WOZ battle, but saw a place I could contribute

This is the CEO

This is the President

Some companies actually use Executive VP of Sales, and then another Exec VP for Operations where the VP position actually runs the day to day, but that's a really big company.

It varies of course but usually the first big leap is having someone else run the whole show.

He has made the communication mistakes one to many times already. I hope all the best with the company and would love to see another company around but communication is really not getting better with JJP. Now he words in his newsgroup that boards are coming April 8. Why does he even say that! He is setting himself up to upset more people. Obviously his Sub Contractors have been lacking with hitting deadlines he shouldn't be giving firm dates anymore.

Jack just made it official on the WOZ forum. Games will not be shipping now. They will wait for the final production boards to arrive (some time around April 8.) Another delay I'm sure he was really sad to have to report. Oh well. The code will just be that much more complete when games do start shipping in a week or two.