That's precisely why I put down a deposit on one, and I have no intention of cancelling my order. I've always thought MM was a stellar game, but I could never stomach the price they went for in relation to other pins. At $8K, a NIB MM sounded like a fair deal, so I jumped on it. I have no illusions that the pin will go up, or even hold its value. That's not what this purchase was about.

MMr is the more common name, but some folks using MM14, being hopeful there are no delays

How about MM14ish?

I would be an exception then. I jumped as soon as I heard about it because it was my understanding that it was a reproduction. Then, as details were released, I became a little turned off by the "improved" boards and non socketed bulbs. I hope they turn out great, but I am not a fan of "hoping I like it," when I can simply wait until I see one in person and decide of it lives up to the hype. I think it would suck to open a NIB pin and regret taking a chance when all the gamble got me was a shaker motor.

I personally know of 4 people (i.e., these aren't just people who post on Pinside, they are people that I know personally) who have backed out of their MMr purchase. Doesn't prove anything in particular, of course, but it does seem to be consistent with many posts I've read on Pinside.

lol that works. It's scheduled for Q2 so I'd imagine even with delays it will be fine for 2014.

Same, know of 1 or 2 more than that and right there that's at the very least 10 people. Can't be isolated, so overall I'd throw a guess that 15-25% of people canceled

If you keep it 15 years(which I intend to) and your number of 2K flushed down the drain is correct that 2K prorated over 15 years is $2.56 a week. The fun I will have over the years will be worth much more than the loss of $2.56 per week.

Curious and actually on topic for the thread, why did they back out?

All for the same reason: there was no real reason to stay in once the standard editions were announced. They are taking a wait and see approach (although one friend is not going to buy now regardless).

For me: Shaker, gold trim, and getting it sooner.

Ditto!

I totally understand why someone would want to get one of these ASAP if they had never had one in their collection before. I'm in the wait and see mode partly because I parted with a nice original not to long ago. If I had not had one previously, I might have left my deposit intact and still be waiting for my standard trim LE, with the free shaker. The fact the I prefer the standard trim made it a no brainer to back out once it was announced that there would be no limit on production.

No second thoughts here just wish it was in the collection already! I want it as soon as possible and add shakers to all my pins so for me was a no brainer to keep the order.

My sentiments exactly well said.

Nope.

You'd be one of the four I was talking about.

I really wanted a little more information, too. I know Rick answered a lot of questions, and assured us it would be a great product, but I was never really satisfied that I knew what I was really getting. I also wasn't too sure when the final bill came due, if I would really be ready with the cash. If the time comes to get one, I would rather make sure I have all the money available, then I will determine if it is worth it, and pay all at once.

Great post I will just say ditto.

That is what I don't understand though. If you are serious, and you want one, why not take the wait and see approach without giving up your spot in line? There will be plenty of time to get your money back once the details are released, if you don't like what you hear.

Yah, I think there were a lot of people that ordered with their emotions and then canceled when they thought about the cost. It's just that people love to talk about "buyers" who have bailed left and right, but it seems like a lot of time those aren't people who were really customers anyway.

The LEs are available in either gold or standard trim, it was your call.

Because I would rather let someone that is certain about the purchase have a chance to get one, and let Rick really know now, than cancel at the last minute. I don't think the METLE situation turned out very good for anyone involved, including myself, and I would rather not be part of the problem.

Meh, just those 2 differences? I still think they are damn close copies.

How about this?

BBB remakes= <200 copies.
MM remakes= Unlimited!

I don't think this has been mentioned yet in this thread: How many people made multiple orders or ordered from multiple distributors? That would have artificially doubled (or tripled) the demand in the initial rush. Before Planetary told people to stop posting numbers, they were up in the 1400s, and there were rumbles about whether there would be another Metallica LE situation. If PPS had held firm, the situation probably would have resolved itself.

I say this honestly (and not to inflame anyone or out myself as a "clown"), but I think the most accurate term to describe these new games would be MM:CGE, for Medieval Madness: Chicago Gaming Edition. They are not really WMS games because as everyone has pointed out WMS does not have a pinball factory anymore. And as far as worrying about whether you are getting an "LE" or a regular edition of these games I can't believe anyone is really caring too much about that at this point, there are barely any differences between the two (aside from how long you will wait for the second one).

But back to my previous soapbox, I understand why WMS stopped making pinball machines, I have had a front row seat for all that. I still maintain the economics have changed radically, they got out of a dying operator-fueled market where they could only get 3k or so for a unit. It's a whole new world now with rich homeowners willing to pay almost 5 figures for a game now right off the assembly line. IMHO.

I disagree. That would mean every game HEP does isn't a Williams game as they completely rebuild the game from the ground up and they aren't the Williams factory.

It's a catch-22. The home demand is partially due to the fact that he operators are not buying. If we found ST at every local bar, restaurant, and pool hall, most of the homeowners wouldn't bother with the purchase, instead they would meet their buddies to play, buying food and drink while there. It's far cheaper that way, but it's not an option for most.

Nah, but every single part is still the original part or copy of original. This remake has all new boards and other under PF items that make it plenty different. Comparing HEP is apples to oranges, easily. I get where you are coming from, it just isn't the same

Yep, you are correct there. It’s not the same game since you have the board redesigns. The hope is that these changes are improvements over the original making it a better game and not just en effort to cheapen it for costs purposes.

Thats what I'm waiting for with pictures and details of the final product before it goes into production. The only thing that will make me bail is if I get the sense that they are attempting to make a cheap knockoff and not an improved table. I'm not thinking so but, we will see.

I'm not sure what rebuilding or repairing something has to do with where it was originally built at the factory. I know that HEP probably replaces a lot of parts as they go along but I'm betting a game still has 95% of it's original parts even after a high end restoration.

if 100% of the buyers ordered from 2 or 3 distributors simultaneously, sure, that would double or triple the demand, but that's not realistic. I doubt the double and triple orders accounted for more than 10% of the total orders. I know some people did this but I don't think it was anywhere near a majority of the people who ordered.

their order numbering system began at 1000. it's a common practice in item tracking. "Order #1400" was really more like the 400th order. Order numbers aren't intended as a count of how many have been ordered (a business wouldn't give out that info as part of an automated confirmation system anyway - think about it). another factor is nobody knows how many of the original 1,000 games PPS had been allotted, as far as I know.

I don't really care about the artificial issues like prestige or perceived "authenticity" or "original"-ness. that whole debate is for people who care about a whole set of things that don't interest me. (although anyone expecting to flip it for profit is in my opinion making a bad bet)

I care about whether this new machine will be a reliable, solid, and a high quality build. my daughter and I are going to play the heck out of it!

I agree with some of the critics and "wait and see" folks on one point: early buyers like me are basically making a gamble that the quality of the build will be up to snuff. But on the other hand, I already know the game itself is truly great and the code is finished. So the build quality may be a gamble, but in terms of code and gameplay, there are at least two ways in which it is a safer bet than a new Stern.

If the cabinet and all mechanical parts all conform to original Williams factory specifications, it doesn't matter what the boardset looks like, it will play the same.

If you are intending to keep it then the point I was making doesn't apply to you. The loss clearly only applies to people that buy a MMr and decide in short order that they don't want to keep it. I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

I'm not debating any of that, but it can't be the same to compare this remake to what HEP does. HEP keeps the game original, minus add on mods such as mirror blades, they don't update the boardset etc

So if the boardset is bad you think the game will play the same since the mechanics are right? The whole game is in the software.

he said "it doesn't matter what the board looks like", not "it doesn't matter whether the board works right". he's correct -- as long as the boards don't break down and the bulbs and switches operate as designed, they could be hot pink and shaped like various my little pony characters for all I care.

I don't think this is rocket science here, if the chosen board set is "bad" it will not be used!
Look at current tech compared to Tech of the late 90's.... I will take my iphone and Blu ray player over a VCR and brick phone any day.
image-193.jpg

did you ever have a brick phone, I did. the analog sound was actually miles ahead of the digital sound we have now. Nowhere near as convenient to use, but the call quality (and it is a phone) was actually better.

yeah I agree the sound quality of voice calls has plummeted in recent years, but I think that's more about the bandwidth allocated by the carriers -- they're compressing the signal so much that the bitrate is just atrociously low on voice calls. that's a cost-cutting decision though, not a technological failure or limitation, and they could turn a dial and increase the bandwidth allocated to voice at any time if they wanted to.

we all agree that it'd be bad news if cost-saving measured negatively impacted the game here, but there's no reason to think newer tech is inherently inferior to the old.

I still use my HP12c from the 80's and prefer it to using an app that does similar stuff on my iPhone. I love pins from the 80's too . I'm a dinosaur I guess.

I'm still amazed by all the people here with $8k for a MMR who claim they have always wanted a MM, but couldn't afford it. How long have you wanted one exactly? It was pretty easy to find a MM for under $8k up until maybe last year. I passed on one for 7k in early 2012 and couldn't even find a friend who wanted it. When I started collecting in '06 you could buy them all day long for $5.5k. Now there's 1000+ new buyers eager to throw down $8k? Maybe this goes to show just how many new collectors there are on here, which is what's boosting prices in the first place.

Also, many in this thread are concerned about how many units PPS is making because that may effect the value of MMR, yet they are happy to see previous owners lose their shirts on the value. I can understand if you want to see what you are getting first, but I don't think that's the biggest motivation. More like 'Only 1000 units? I can't lose! ...wait, they are making unlimited numbers now? I'm out.' Sorry if this isn't a popular opinion, just my thoughts.

Brian

I can't speak for others, but as I already pointed out in my post at the top of this page, it wasn't about being able to afford one. It was about thinking the game commanded too great of a price in relation to other pins. Yes, a couple years ago you could easily get an MM for $8K, but all the other pins were cheaper then too. Given how much NIB pins go for these days, particularly the premiums and LEs, a NIB MM for $8K is right in line with the rest of the market.

Prices are relative. Back when MM's were $5K, NIB Stern's were $3,800 and they were all LE's back then! DM, JM, JD, all $800.

I wanted one back then, but they were a horrible value. Since then, the used market pushed them up to $12K+ and NIB Stern LEs are about $8K. So, a brand new MM for $8K today is much "cheaper" (really just a better value) than it was a few years ago.

I could always afford it, but at the time when I was starting to collect, I could buy 3 or 4 games for the price of one MM...so, I chose that route. As the price creeped up, I just didn't want to pay that much for a used game. $8k is still a lot and I still wouldn't spend that much on a used MM - but the allure of a MM brand new out of the box is compelling....so I bit.

Is it ok Betel if I thought about none of that? Just thought I love playing it in pinball arcade think it has great sound and fun shots. I played one on route that was beat to hell and was not fun but that did not mean it did not spark my curiosity of how a restored one might play. I resigned myself that I would never own one right up until that day it was announced that I could own a new one for not a insane price brand new which I care about. Getting burned on Metallica with unfinished code and shoddy quality made me want to send my next pinball money to a game I know has finished code or finished enough for me. I am very cautious about giving Stern any more money directly, my confidence is so low of what I will get.

If I don't like it so be it,maybe I lose a grand. Will be a fun ride and Rick made me feel like my sale was important. Hoping this works out and he will make more remakes. I hope for TAF even though I know it's a longshot.

All good points! Relative to the pricing of other games, it is a slightly better 'value' today. I've also never been a huge Stern fan and I am somewhat soured on my Metallica purchase as well, so I can understand moving on to a potentially better built product.

I had my deposit returned after going to pinball hall of fame in vegas and playing about 30 other machines I wanted. Had it been only the 1000 units, I wouldn't have cancelled.

I understand why they made a non LE.. But being its basically the same game with an unlimited run. I decided I will just wait a few years and get it once price comes down second hand.

People keep talking about an "unlimited" number of MMRs...but are we really sure this is the case? Let's say all LEs are sold, and another 200 people ordered Standards (just a random number)...PPS might switch to a new game after the Standards are done, and are we certain they will revisit MMR? I guess if there is enough demand they will, but that is not a guarantee.

Those are my thoughts. I think there is only going to be so much demand at 8k for these. Not too much over 1k IMO. It won't be cost effective for them to maintain production on these once the inital backlog is filled (producing 2 or 3 at a time is not going to fly) and at that point they either decide to stop producing pins altogether or move onto the next title. The folks that think they can wait for a year to pick up a NIB could have a rude awaking. Just saying, there are no guarantees here, risks on both sides of the fence.

actually doing a few at a time is not that big of a deal after the main run. they will have all the parts anyway since they are the part house. any pinboards will exist for any wiring harness they still need.

You guys still arguing over this turd ?

The cost to keep the assembly line going at Chicago Gaming is not going to work out when they are producing 2-3 games a month is not. I just don't see that happeing.

There's a reason Stern produces there games in batches.