(Topic ID: 124253)

Anyone NOT use head bolts? (in their late model Williams games)


By joemagiera

4 years ago



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  • 98 posts
  • 56 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 2 years ago by Homepin
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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    There are 98 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 2.
    #51 4 years ago
    Quoted from RCA1:

    The latch on the back exists so that the backbox will stay in place while you are installing the bolts. The latch is not intended to be used for permanent setup.

    That's not true at all. The backbox stays up fine with no bolts or latch and will not fall down. Gravity handles it. In fact it's somewhat stable this way and in my shop I've accidentally had a few upright unlatched and never noticed until I went to fold them down. It's not like as soon as you unlatch the head the head slams forward.

    The head is stable up with no latch. The latch prevents it from falling when shaken or moved. The bolts are for those old timers that are too emotionally attached in their ways to handle using a latch. Nothing more.

    Edit: got a couple games on route for last few years and never used the bolts there either. Only the latch.

    #52 4 years ago

    Who knew we were "old timers" at 32... jesus. Apparently the longer we all live, the earlier we are considered old farts. Can we go back to having 70 year life spans so I can be "young" longer?

    *Edit* WAIT WAIT WAIT... is this why the hell all these people have the "no nudging" rules in their houses? Because they're not using backbox bolts?!

    #53 4 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    is this why the hell all these people have the "no nudging" rules in their houses? Because they're not using backbox bolts?!

    How should I know why people have those super dumb rules in their houses? That's not the rule here. Nudge all you like. The tilt bob will take care of you.

    #54 4 years ago
    Quoted from markmon:

    That's not true at all. The backbox stays up fine with no bolts or latch and will not fall down. Gravity handles it. In fact it's somewhat stable this way and in my shop I've accidentally had a few upright unlatched and never noticed until I went to fold them down. It's not like as soon as you unlatch the head the head slams forward.
    The head is stable up with no latch. The latch prevents it from falling when shaken or moved. The bolts are for those old timers that are too emotionally attached in their ways to handle using a latch. Nothing more.
    Edit: got a couple games on route for last few years and never used the bolts there either. Only the latch.

    That's not what I said. I said the latch is intended to be used for setup only. Read the warning text on the back.20150412_185320.jpg

    10
    #55 4 years ago

    It's crazy to me that you guys are putting the fate of thousands of dollars of electronics and art in the hands of two small 20 year old wood screws. That is all holding those latches together, right? Especially when part of their intended function is to be violently jostled. I absolutely believe you when you say you haven't had one fall yet. That doesn't make it a smart decision.

    #56 4 years ago
    Quoted from RCA1:

    That's not what I said. I said the latch is intended to be used for setup only. Read the warning text on the back.20150412_185320.jpg (Click image to enlarge)

    I think that the warning text refers to the "public" sphere, by which I mean a game standing in an arcade saloon. Obviously you don't want a player damaging it.

    The crucial factor here is tilting. Some players shake, some don't. Personally, I don't nudge the game at all so I haven't installed any backbox bolts (I fold the backbox often, so it's a bit of an inconvenience). Remember that these warnings were written, or rather painted, at a time when pinballs were made for game rooms and not home collectors. If you've got hundreds of people a day coming through and playing a game, some will nudge, some won't. It's not their game, they don't care about it. They can shake it as much as they want. What if they shake it so hard that the backbox lock for the latch breaks off? It would certainly damage the game. You'd want the person playing to pay, right? But how could have they known that the bolts weren't attached? Surely it's not their fault that you didn't take the necessary precautions as advised by the manufacturer.

    So, ultimately, it just goes down to whether you nudge or not. If you don't then I honestly think there's no point in installing them. But then again, I do see the argument for; why not just do it, what harm could it do? Remember, my fellow pinballers, that laziness is never the solution (well, at least when you're handling valuable things). Like I said, the only reason I don't do it is because I need to (and I won't go into the causal details of this necessity) fold the backbox often, so that bolt would be a nuisance, but I don't nudge so it's not a problem.

    #57 4 years ago
    Quoted from snowvictim:

    I think that the warning text refers to the "public" sphere, by which I mean a game standing in an arcade saloon. Obviously you don't want a player damaging it.
    The crucial factor here is tilting. Some players shake, some don't. Personally, I don't nudge the game at all so I haven't installed any backbox bolts (I fold the backbox often, so it's a bit of an inconvenience). Remember that these warnings were written, or rather painted, at a time when pinballs were made for game rooms and not home collectors. If you've got hundreds of people a day coming through and playing a game, some will nudge, some won't. It's not their game, they don't care about it. They can shake it as much as they want. What if they shake it so hard that the backbox lock for the latch breaks off? It would certainly damage the game. You'd want the person playing to pay, right? But how could have they known that the bolts weren't attached? Surely it's not their fault that you didn't take the necessary precautions as advised by the manufacturer.
    So, ultimately, it just goes down to whether you nudge or not. If you don't then I honestly think there's no point in installing them. But then again, I do see the argument for; why not just do it, what harm could it do? Remember, my fellow pinballers, that laziness is never the solution (well, at least when you're handling valuable things). Like I said, the only reason I don't do it is because I need to (and I won't go into the causal details of this necessity) fold the backbox often, so that bolt would be a nuisance, but I don't nudge so it's not a problem.

    One time while playing at makmon's he death saved corvette so hard( successfully too) that the Tales of the arabian nights I was playing to his right tilted cause the heads hit and the TOTAN had a super sensitive tilt. No heads fell down

    #58 4 years ago

    I am blown away this is actually a question. You should always install the head bolts. If you are feeling lazy, just get one in.

    #59 4 years ago
    Quoted from joemagiera:

    Thanks for all the feedback. I'm trying to come up with a reasonably secure, but fast solution. Middle of a game party and someone is really wanting to play the other game. I don't want to be messing with taking the translite out, dealing with the bolts. I might try the two latch idea that a few have suggested.

    Wow someone is actually going to use my solution that will most definitely work. This is a pinside first for me!

    #60 4 years ago
    Quoted from jrivelli:

    One time while playing at makmon's he death saved corvette so hard( successfully too) that the Tales of the arabian nights I was playing to his right tilted cause the heads hit and the TOTAN had a super sensitive tilt. No heads fell down

    Well I'm feeling pretty sheepish. Presented with this clear result of a thorough scientific study on the matter I've changed my mind. Going downstairs to take all my head bolts out right now. I'll be back to change my upvotes to down votes and vice-versa in a bit.

    #61 4 years ago

    Head bolts are totally unnecessary. Hell, even the latch likely isn't needed. The head sits pretty darn solid with gravity. The head has to lift up and be pulled forward to come down. Latches are fine and totally enough to keep the head in place. I don't think I've EVER bought a game that had them installed. Seriously, has anyone seen one just fall down while playing? Really, serious question. Doubtful.

    -1
    #62 4 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    It's crazy to me that you guys are putting the fate of thousands of dollars of electronics and art in the hands of two small 20 year old wood screws. That is all holding those latches together, right? Especially when part of their intended function is to be violently jostled. I absolutely believe you when you say you haven't had one fall yet. That doesn't make it a smart decision.

    Actually no one is. The head stays up just fine without the bolts or latch. The latch secures it even further. If the latch totally fails, no one is out "thousands of dollars in electronics".

    #63 4 years ago

    The head its latched, which is absolutely sufficient enough to hold the head.

    The bolts are because people mess with stuff on route and no doubt the latch could be "messed with" and the bolts secure the head for a commercial environment. As far as the latch breaking from the head, that cannot happen from normal use.....that would take a lot of pressure, such as transporting with the head up, or again on route and someone is leaning on the head. I suppose a water damaged cabinet could also break.

    But I do put the bolts in the few games I still have with bolts

    #64 4 years ago
    Quoted from Pimp77:

    Head bolts are totally unnecessary. Hell, even the latch likely isn't needed. The head sits pretty darn solid with gravity. The head has to lift up and be pulled forward to come down. Latches are fine and totally enough to keep the head in place. I don't think I've EVER bought a game that had them installed. Seriously, has anyone seen one just fall down while playing? Really, serious question. Doubtful.

    Interestingly, I've only bought one game that didn't have the bolts installed, but then again, all my games were bought from old timers that were at least in their thirties.

    #65 4 years ago

    Most often when I buy a game, the latch is not even there. Most people that have been in the hobby for years, remove them when transporting. They are either completely sheered off, or get caught on everything when dollying a game from it's backside. I remove them and don't usually put them back.

    Any game before the mid-late 80's does not have a hasp type lock. You don't really have a choice on those games. There's no other way to secure the head without bolts. Especially if there is no hinge on the front sides of most all Bally/Williams games, prior to 1981.

    I have had 1 hasp pull out of an MFD cabinet over the years. That's out of about 80 pins. It was on Gold Wings. I had it set up flat on the floor and used the hinge to secure it. 5 minutes later I heard it crash down while I was in a room next door. The glass was not in it or I'm sure it would have shattered.

    I realize that the majority of people that posted in this thread are B/W/DMD lovers. You are never going to convince me to not use head bolts to secure a head, no matter the game.

    I have also had two hinges fail. Once on my EATPM, and once on Centaur. The only reason the heads did not fall backwards were the head bolts.

    You host a league event with a lot of aggressive players and you will quickly realize that the hasp is just not enough. Shows are no exception either. I have never "seen" a head fall at a show. But I have "heard" one fall before. It is LOUD. There certainly weren't any head bolts in that Pinbot.

    #66 4 years ago
    Quoted from RCA1:

    That's not what I said. I said the latch is intended to be used for setup only. Read the warning text on the back.

    LOL! Who reads that warning text anyways?

    Manufacturers are so stupid...

    #67 4 years ago

    Hundreds of $, tens of hours, and the collateral damage from installing LEDs, fine. Two minutes and fifty cents for head bolts? That's simply a waste of my valuable time and money.

    #68 4 years ago

    I never put the head bolts in. The only point of them is because a person couldn't unlatch the head in public. They are pointless in a home environment. The backbox balances on its own. There's no forward pressure at all.

    #69 4 years ago

    No forward pressure but every nudge forward can bring the head down potentially.

    #70 4 years ago
    Quoted from calvin12:

    No forward pressure but every nudge forward can bring the head down potentially.

    If you don't have the latch on. Even without it, the head takes significant pressure to push it forward.

    #71 4 years ago

    So much debate over something that literally takes 45 seconds.

    #72 4 years ago
    Quoted from DefaultGen:

    So much debate over something that literally takes 45 seconds.

    20 seconds if you have the wingnut head bolts. I have one of them in each of my games just for piece of mind and if you need to slide your games around I recommend these EZ Glide leg levellers from Marco.

    large.jpg

    http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/LL25-EZG

    #73 4 years ago
    Quoted from DefaultGen:

    So much debate over something that literally takes 45 seconds.

    The OP has clearly stated he doesn't want to remove the translite and fool around. 45 sec - bull*hit! Why would you want to deal with this after a couple of beers and entertaining a bunch of folks?!?

    #74 4 years ago

    Just ordered one for T2........ ..............Joey

    #75 4 years ago
    Quoted from JoeGrenuk:

    collateral damage from installing LEDs

    Specific examples?

    #76 4 years ago
    Quoted from pezpunk:

    It's crazy to me that you guys are putting the fate of thousands of dollars of electronics and art in the hands of two small 20 year old wood screws.

    Screwed into particle board at that. I have seen a few where the wood has been torn out from the latches original spot and the latch re- located.

    #77 4 years ago
    Quoted from tslayer71:

    The OP has clearly stated he doesn't want to remove the translite and fool around. 45 sec - bull*hit! Why would you want to deal with this after a couple of beers and entertaining a bunch of folks?!?

    Judging by most of the responses people have read nothing but the title.

    #78 4 years ago
    Quoted from brad808:

    Judging by most of the responses people have read nothing but the title.

    Ya just can never understand this? You can lead a pinsider to water, but you can't make em drink!

    #79 4 years ago

    I've read Joe's post a few times now, and I'm not getting it.... How does being able to quickly fold down the head help his situation? Maybe I'm just being dense, but I can't picture it. Maybe Joe or somebody else can chime in and help the mentally challenged....

    #80 4 years ago

    Yes yes and yes, use them

    #81 4 years ago

    That said I just got a DE Hook and that back latch system is pretty sound!

    #82 4 years ago
    Quoted from Pimp77:

    Head bolts are totally unnecessary. Hell, even the latch likely isn't needed. The head sits pretty darn solid with gravity. The head has to lift up and be pulled forward to come down. Latches are fine and totally enough to keep the head in place. I don't think I've EVER bought a game that had them installed. Seriously, has anyone seen one just fall down while playing? Really, serious question.

    I have knocked one down (FunHouse) while playing. Worse, it wasn't my game! Luckily caught it on the way down, but still felt like serious shit doing it.

    ------

    As for the OP, Joe I think you have the cart before the horse. Put the games against the wall, and *move* the wall game. Now get a sheet of plywood, three door hinges, and some eyelets with hooks. Mount hinges to the plywood, then on the other end mount the hinges to ceiling joists so that the plywood naturally hangs vertically in front of the heads. Mount wall game to plywood. When someone wants to play pinball, lift the plywood so the wall game is almost touching the ceiling, and then secure plywood near ceiling with eyelet hooks screwed into the ceiling joists.

    Quick, very reliable, and you can have your head bolts with no muss nor fuss. Should work for everyone that isn't 7' tall. Then again, someone who's 7' tall is going to have a hell of a hard time in Joe's basement to begin with!

    #83 4 years ago
    Quoted from mattosborn:

    I've read Joe's post a few times now, and I'm not getting it.... How does being able to quickly fold down the head help his situation? Maybe I'm just being dense, but I can't picture it. Maybe Joe or somebody else can chime in and help the mentally challenged....

    Joe has a light gun wall game (think Duck Hunt, just different) mounted reasonably high on the wall in his basement. If pins were in front of it, with the heads folded down, they'd more or less clear.

    #84 4 years ago
    Quoted from mattosborn:

    I've read Joe's post a few times now, and I'm not getting it.... How does being able to quickly fold down the head help his situation? Maybe I'm just being dense, but I can't picture it. Maybe Joe or somebody else can chime in and help the mentally challenged....

    First paragraph - first post. OP has limited room so he has wall game (ie. darts) behind pinball backbox. He needs a quick/easy/reliable system to fold down backbox to play darts...

    #85 4 years ago

    I find it disturbing that marcos charges 4.50$ or something per wing bolt. you can go buy the same size bolt and a washer(s) at Ace hardware for .80 cents or something

    #86 4 years ago
    Quoted from TheKorn:

    Joe has a light gun wall game (think Duck Hunt, just different) mounted reasonably high on the wall in his basement. If pins were in front of it, with the heads folded down, they'd more or less clear.

    Thanks. I get it now. I've actually seen a video of Joe's gun game.
    I think Korn has the right idea... make a fold down panel for the gun game. Then you don't ever have to screw around with the pin heads.

    #87 4 years ago

    This is getting crazy. Solution, buy bigger house with more wall space.

    #88 4 years ago
    Quoted from davjoszie:

    Specific examples?

    Examples of collateral damage from installing LED's???? Seriously?

    There have been hundreds of posts where somebody starts off with "I was installing LEDs in my XXXX and now the game XXXXXXXXXXXXXX. WHAT DID I DO????????

    #89 4 years ago

    Who wants to throw darts when you have pins to play?

    #90 4 years ago

    ^^^......This all day..............Joey

    #91 4 years ago

    I need to get some of those wing bolts!

    #92 4 years ago

    I put one in all my games. Seems like a very cheap insurance policy

    #93 4 years ago

    latch rips out of wood with hard shaker player..... KABOOM!

    #94 4 years ago
    Quoted from mattosborn:

    I've read Joe's post a few times now, and I'm not getting it.... How does being able to quickly fold down the head help his situation? Maybe I'm just being dense, but I can't picture it. Maybe Joe or somebody else can chime in and help the mentally challenged....

    Hi,

    Ok, this is a long (42 minutes) video of my game room, don't bother watching it unless you're into video games:


    To see the problem, skip and watch 25:00 - 27:30 time.
    I want put pins in front of the wall game. When people want to play the wall game, I want to be able to quickly fold down the heads of the pinball games (two games would fit in front of the wall game). Then if people wanted to play the pins, I want to be able to fold the heads up. And yes, in the video, I do say the wall game gets non-stop play at game parties, but I want to add two more pins to my basement!

    In a party environment, in my cramped basement, I want to be able to do that quickly and easily. Take the translites out and set them down, I'd have to take them out of the room. Then put in the head bolts, tighten, put the translite back in. 45 seconds? ha! I challenge anyone to do it 5 minutes in that situation. This while I'm entertaining the guests, coining up games that don't have a free play (that people can't figure out how to trigger the coin switch), making popcorn, cleaning up spilled drinks, saying hi or by to people coming or going. I want something fast!

    Now, as to thinking outside the box, I like Vince (Korn's) solution. Would take some planning and such. I don't think I'll do it that way, but I do like it. I'm just not that "constructionally enabled", or maybe I'm "constructionally challenged"?

    Joe (joemagiera at ameritech dot net)
    joemagiera@ameritech.net

    #95 4 years ago
    Quoted from joemagiera:

    Hi,
    Ok, this is a long (42 minutes) video of my game room, don't bother watching it unless you're into video games:
    » YouTube video
    To see the problem, skip and watch 25:00 - 27:30 time.
    I want put pins in front of the wall game. When people want to play the wall game, I want to be able to quickly fold down the heads of the pinball games (two games would fit in front of the wall game). Then if people wanted to play the pins, I want to be able to fold the heads up. And yes, in the video, I do say the wall game gets non-stop play at game parties, but I want to add two more pins to my basement!
    In a party environment, in my cramped basement, I want to be able to do that quickly and easily. Take the translites out and set them down, I'd have to take them out of the room. Then put in the head bolts, tighten, put the translite back in. 45 seconds? ha! I challenge anyone to do it 5 minutes in that situation. This while I'm entertaining the guests, coining up games that don't have a free play (that people can't figure out how to trigger the coin switch), making popcorn, cleaning up spilled drinks, saying hi or by to people coming or going. I want something fast!
    Now, as to thinking outside the box, I like Vince (Korn's) solution. Would take some planning and such. I don't think I'll do it that way, but I do like it. I'm just not that "constructionally enabled", or maybe I'm "constructionally challenged"?
    Joe (joemagiera at ameritech dot net)
    joemagiera@ameritech.net

    while pain the head bolts are still the best protection against the head coming down unexpectedly. Plus the head bolts don't need to be tightened just run them in by hand. It does not take that long at all, or just put one in and again run it in by hand.

    2 years later
    #96 2 years ago

    Does anyone happen to know the size of a head bolt for a system 11 Williams? The game in question is a Diner.

    #97 2 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    If you're going to half-ass it at least half-ass it right.
    Do the opposing corner holes and use TWO bolts so you don't tear off one hinge side.
    Oh wait, but then you might as well take the extra 30 seconds to put the other two in as well, because you've already spent 15 seconds doing the second one.

    One bolt in a WPC-style game is plenty.

    I've never, in history, ever, in 16 years in this hobby, heard of a latched head failing and coming "crashing down" as some have mentioned, even without head bolts. I've certainly never heard of a head being "torn off one hinge side." How rough are you guys with your games?! I don't think I could cause that kind of damage if I tried. Maybe if I were to hang the game upside down like a bat, and then perform some kind of cirque du soleii style acrobatics on the game with the help of hydraulics, at a fast pace, with insanely high g-force lateral movements?

    Even anecdotally I've never heard of a latched head coming down. It just doesn't happen, and plenty of people don't bother with head bolts. Even WITHOUT a latch OR bolts it probably wouldn't happen - the way a WPC is built and the weight distributed, it doesn't want to do that. Early System 11s would be a different story.

    A boring and uninteresting story...

    I once bought a Fireaball EM from a guy on Long Island. he'd had the game for decades. I'm breaking this thing down, take the back door off, and....there are NO head bolts, no anything else connecting the head to the body except for the jones plug connectors. This thing had been sitting like that since the early 80s. Yikes!

    #98 2 years ago

    Use bolts. It is plain dumb not to.

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