(Topic ID: 202272)

Anyone install LED flashers in and early Bally?

By Kawydud

6 years ago


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  • 19 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by Kawydud
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#1 6 years ago

I have a Bally Spectrum that I have been swapping over to LED's. I have two Altek lamp driver boards so the LEDs in the GI and inserts work without flickering. My issue is the 4 flashers in the back box. There is a separate board for the control of these 4 flashers. With incandescent bulbs installed, all 4 flash correctly at the same time. If one of these bulbs is missing, none will light up, making them wired in series(I believe).
If I swap out one of the incandescent bulbs with an LED flasher, only the LED flasher lights up, and you can tell right away that it is getting too much voltage. (I pull it out quickly, and you can smell carnage).

Just on a quest now to figure out why the LED pulls all 43vdc. ( I am assuming this is what happens).

I have attached the wiring schematic for the flasher board.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

Thank you

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#2 6 years ago

Two things- if someone else confirms believe me... just sayin, I know a bit about this but not as much as many others here.

I assume that schematic is from the original game, correct? If it is and your running of the Altek board it's not going to help diagnose this- I assume they did the same thing more or less but maybe not quite.

Second- I am not aware of any 43 volt LED at the pinball suppliers. The reason that the LED is only thing lighting is it's only able to pass a little bit of current and the incandescent never heats enough to light. Also- your gonna smoke your LED in a few seconds or less if I am right and your throwing a 6 or 12 v LED in the circuit.

#3 6 years ago

Thanks for the reply. The schematic I attached is for the flasher board. That is still original and is just triggered by the Altek. The original 921 bulbs are 12 volt. I was thinking along the same lines as you were regarding the LED not drawing enough current to light the rest of the bulbs. Wondering if the fix would be to put resistors on each socket to make it draw current.

#4 6 years ago

You cannot mix LEDs and incandescents in this series light circuit. You must install four identical LEDs so they each have an equal voltage drop.
The schematic above says they are 921 lamps which are rated at 12.8 volts each.
So you'll need to use four 12 volt LEDs for this application (i.e. car LEDs).

#5 6 years ago

Actually this could get a little tricky because using standard low power LEDs might not draw enough current for the SCR (marked as S2800A on the above schematic) to hold its "on" state. i.e. the four LEDs might flicker.
Your chances might be better if you use multi SMD LEDs which draw more current, though some of them can get quite warm which kind of defeats the purpose of using LEDs.

Anyhow, wish you luck with it.

#6 6 years ago
Quoted from Quench:

Actually this could get a little tricky because using standard low power LEDs might not draw enough current for the SCR (marked as S2800A on the above schematic) to hold its "on" state. i.e. the four LEDs might flicker.
Your chances might be better if you use multi SMD LEDs which draw more current, though some of them can get quite warm which kind of defeats the purpose of using LEDs.
Anyhow, wish you luck with it.

That is what I have been fighting, I install 4 identical LED flashers, and they won't light up. The only time I can get a flasher to light during test, is when there are 3 incandescent bulbs and I pop in one LED. The LED is the only one lit up at this point. That was why I was wondering if I need to put a false load on each LED to make them work correctly.

#7 6 years ago
Quoted from Kawydud:

That was why I was wondering if I need to put a false load on each LED to make them work correctly.

Yeah looks like you'll need a dummy load.
You could try four 220 ohm, 1 watt resistors (solder one resistor across each lamp socket).

#8 6 years ago

reverse polarity?

#9 6 years ago
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

reverse polarity?

Did you mean swapping the bulbs around to make sure they work? If so, I did that as well, to make sure they were connected properly.

The flasher wouldn't light with the 3 incandescents if the polarity was wrong. Once I flipped it, you can tell quickly that it was getting too much voltage.

#10 6 years ago

OLDPINGUY has a point. Most 12 volt LEDs are directional since they're intended for cars. You need to make sure all four LEDs are installed in the correct polarity.

#11 6 years ago

Had another question earlier about the 'Rube Golberg'ish design of the solenoid ex pander circuit. In this case the SE board was modified to power a SCR mounted on the power supply to control high current bulbs like the flashers.

Couple notes about this circuit:
The MOC3011 does not draw enough current to keep the activation SCR running hense the parallel 555 bulb. If you replaced that lamp with an led the circuit will not stay activated.
The 12 volt automotive bulbs are in series and powered off the 43v bus. Quench is right, make sure the polarity is properly oriented the same on the LEDs.
I would need to look at the specs but I wonder if the SE board and SCR are even necessary anymore? The only reason for this circuit is the flasher bulbs drew too much current for the normal SCR. If the current draw of the 4 flashers is less than 2 regular bulbs you could probably pull out the entire SE circuit and just power the leds directly from the driver board SCR.

#12 6 years ago

Changes are you are using bayonet bulbs?

Grab some alligator clip wires and attach to 2 leads at socket and without crossing touch bulb bottom tip,
and the other to the side. Also try reversing this position.

Try this when you expect them to light.

Sometimes even in wiring, they may flip flop and reverse in series.

If there is no code to tell them to flash, you can find 12v blinking bulbs, so that aspect is controlled by the bulb.

There are also blinking boards, that can go in line and do a series after that point.

I cant say if this will always work, many games.....

Socketed extensions from Matrix can help test or install. Binkers, and more, although Ive found the power supply and draw sometimes diminished my ambitious task.

#13 6 years ago

I will try the resistors and report back. I think the reason they have the separate board for the flashers in this case is there isn't any other light that is 12 volt powered. All of the GI and inserts are 5 volt. But someone with more knowledge than me can chime in.

#14 6 years ago

I'd say those #921 12V lamps are used because they're brighter so you get more effect when the game flashes them.

But they rarely flash during gameplay or for any extended period right? I'm not sure there's much to be gained by changing them to LEDs.

#15 6 years ago

The only reason I wanted to install the colored flashers was to color match the back glass. The artwork gets really washed out with the incandescent bulbs. Now it has become an objective to figure it out.

I appreciate all of the input.

Thanks

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#16 6 years ago

The flasher bulbs are automotive for effect and there is no 12v power bus for them. That is why we put 4 in series with the 48v bus.

#17 6 years ago

I wanted to thank everyone for the help on this. Installing the 220 ohm resistors did the trick, LED flashers now work like they should.

Quench, can you tell me how you figured out what size resistor was needed for the circuit? I have seen some calculations online, but they seem to give me different values.

Thank you

#18 6 years ago
Quoted from Kawydud:

can you tell me how you figured out what size resistor was needed for the circuit?

I don't know how to explain this without getting technical so here goes.

Those four 12V lamps connected in series are switched via the "S2800A" SCR (shown in the schematic above).

When the SCR is switched ON at the "gate" pin, it will stay ON so long as there is sufficient current flowing through it. This is known as a SCR's "holding current".

The datasheet for the S2800A states the "holding current" spec can be up to 20 milliamps, meaning the SCR will stay ON so long as 20ma (at minimum) is flowing through it. When the current drops below 20ma, the SCR will switch OFF.
Incandescent lamps cause more than enough current to flow through the SCR for it to operate as desired but LEDs generally on their own don't because they consume too little current.

Each of those LEDs in series will have for arguments sake about 12 volts across them.
Using ohms law, (R=V/I) this tells us the resistance required across 12 volts that will carry 20ma in this series circuit would be 600 ohms.

However, 20ma current through the SCR is borderline and we need more to ensure it stays ON when it should. Also because the supply voltage to these lamps is unregulated DC (which is rising and falling in a semi sinewave), the voltage across the LEDs therefore rises and falls and if we were to use 600 ohm resistor loads, the SCR will not have enough current flowing to switch ON soon enough in the rising voltage cycle or will switch off too soon in the falling voltage cycle - these factors help to cause LEDs to flicker.
In this case I usually calculate the load resistance across the LED based on a much lower voltage (about 1/3) across the LED.
So 4 volts divided by 20ma gives us about 200 ohms. When the LED has 12 volts across it, the resistor will have 60ma through it plus the LED will have about 20ma (80ma in total through the SCR well exceeds the minimum holding current spec).
Calculating the resistor wattage is based on the current and voltage across the resistor. In this case the resistor will consume about 0.65 watts so using 1 watt resistors gives you the head room needed so it doesn't cook.

I hope this makes some sense.

#19 6 years ago

It makes a lot of sense Quench, Thanks so much for explaining it.

I found some calculations for what resistor should be in place, but I didn't take into consideration the S2800A, I was basing it on the lighting.

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