(Topic ID: 48954)

Anyone ever make a buyer sign a release?


By NJGecko

6 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 57 posts
  • 39 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by vid1900
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    #1 6 years ago

    I have a potential buyer for a machine that I'm not getting a super warm fuzzy feeling from. I've had him ask how he could be covered if he didn't use paypal which struck me as unusual. He's agreed to give me cash at this point, and I'm making him inspect it first. My gut is saying he could be the kind of person to be get it home, come back in a week and say he noticed something or he isn't happy with it or something like that and either demand a refund or money back.
    So what's the advice on this? Have a form for him to sign saying he understands the machine is sold as-is, no warranty, he's had a chance to inspect it, list the accessories it comes with, etc?
    I'd hate to walk away from a sale just because I was concerned something might happen, you know?

    #2 6 years ago

    Nope. Never done that.

    #3 6 years ago

    Maybe the seller should sign a release, too.

    #4 6 years ago

    On occasion, especially when selling a gun. Call it a "Bill of Sale" though.

    #5 6 years ago

    I have with certain items like my motorcycle I sold, havent with a pin but its not a bad idea.

    11
    #6 6 years ago

    I'd make up two receipts, with game info and serial number. And a big as is, all sales final.

    You both sign it, you both get a copy.

    Or walk. I tend to go with gut feeling. And no deal is always better than a bad deal.

    LTG : )

    #7 6 years ago

    Maybe just make a normal receipt with a copy for each of you. Give him an honest description of the game and explain it is sold AS-IS. Write AS-IS on the receipt. Should be sufficient.

    #8 6 years ago

    No. And in fact, I have confidence in whatever I sell. I always tell the buyer that ill warranty the machine for 30 days as long as he brings it to me to work on. I would never accept Paypal. If the buyer doesn't feel comfortable with cash he should be told not to bother coming to look.

    #9 6 years ago
    Quoted from LTG:

    And no deal is always better than a bad deal.

    That's for sure!

    #10 6 years ago

    Guess bill of sale is a better term, huh? It's funny, as I'm thinking about it, there is always a bill of sale on a car...even a $500 beater. But on a $8,000 pin..rarely. Then again, pin folks are a good lot for the most part.

    I'm going to see if I can get this guy to talk to me on the phone. He's only communicating with email.

    #11 6 years ago

    I always have a simple receipt for the customer that lists the sale price, serial number of the machine, sales date.

    In the print at the bottom it states "all sales final" "as is" "used machine". The receipt also has my hourly labor rates and travel range.

    I have the customer sign my copy, we both sign his copy.

    When everything is spelled out in plain English, it makes things easier.

    #12 6 years ago

    Are you trying to hide any issues with the pin?

    #13 6 years ago

    I had to sign a "release" when I picked up a pin I bought on
    eBay. I even paid cash to save the seller fees. He had me play a test game then sign it. Truth was the machine wasn't as described mechanically or cosmetically but I knew better than to expect it would be and I was very happy with the purchase price so I happily signed it.

    #14 6 years ago
    Quoted from LTG:

    I'd make up two receipts, with game info and serial number. And a big as is, all sales final.
    You both sign it, you both get a copy.
    Or walk. I tend to go with gut feeling. And no deal is always better than a bad deal.
    LTG : )

    I'm in agreement. I have signed that type of note as a buyer with no remorse.

    No problem walking either. Tell him about the note and signature in advance. He pays and signs or no deal. No hard feelings. If he gives you a bad feeling, no problem walking away. Good luck!

    #15 6 years ago

    yes, write up the agreement. if you don't someone will find a way to alter it to benefit themselves. be as friendly as you can. Bill of sale won't hurt anyone. if he wont sign it, then no deal, and you will know exactly why.

    When i PAY for machines. i KNOW that i am taking a risk. i have the benefit of a few years experience behind me when i inspect one, so I know what i am getting into. hence. with ME, a bill of sale or release or whatever wont be necessary. If i load the machine on my truck. i am confident. it's my problem now.

    #16 6 years ago

    I haven't used it for pinball, but I've used it for other high value items, and no, I'm not affiliated. Check out lawdepot.com You put in your state & stuff, it will generate a legal form that everyone signs. IIRC you need to sign up to print your stuff without a watermark, but then just cancel once you save it to a word document, etc. If you don't cancel they will bill you every month or something. I think what I did was copy & paste the preview document. Good luck, damn those "feelings".

    #17 6 years ago

    I wouldn't accept Paypal and I would not include a description of the machine (other than that it is "used") that could be interpreted/enforced as a (mis)respresentation even though no warranty is offered. Keep it simple -- less is better: bill of sale listing machine with serial number and any other items you include. I would also state: sale is final, no refunds, no returns, item is sold to and accepted by buyer as is in used condition with no warranties express or implied. Sign and date.

    However, it appears that you need to have a conversation with the buyer. It sounds like he wants to be covered whereas you do not want to cover after the sale. These basic terms should be agreed to verbally before you move forward.

    #18 6 years ago

    I've signed these before. If the buyer is serious he'll sign after inspection. No reason to take a chance.

    #19 6 years ago
    Quoted from NJGecko:

    I've had him ask how he could be covered

    are you offering him a warranty? If you're not, he's not covered.

    Quoted from NJGecko:

    So what's the advice on this?

    find a different buyer. Seriously.

    #20 6 years ago

    On my first game I asked for a receipt.. just so we had a trail of the transaction. But just make sure everything states 'as is' and be clear on all sales are final. Cash and carry...

    #21 6 years ago

    I offer bill of sales as is slips on all pin sales that are not going to other pin heads. I have gotten called to change light bulbs and shit before.

    #22 6 years ago

    Is this really necessary in a cash transaction?

    I don't see any reasonable action a buyer can take after the transaction has occurred?

    Caveat Emptor.

    I can say that whether buying or selling (a pinball machine) I've never signed or had anyone else sign anything in the transaction. Once I hand you the cash it's my problem. That being said if things pop up that are not as they were described then I will be contacting the seller. However, he/she has no obligation to deal with me at that point. If something was not as described and I'm the seller I will do my best to make it right. I'm not obligated to do so but my own personal ethics would have me put forth my best effort.

    #23 6 years ago

    Go with the Bill of Sale -As Is - No Warranty stated nor implied. Game name, year, serial number, make, sign, date. Done. I have never done this however not bad practice.

    #24 6 years ago

    If you are getting a bad vibe, walk away. Another buyer will come along.

    #25 6 years ago

    Bill of sale is no problem.

    Never personally done one for a pin, but I did for my Motorcycle.

    #26 6 years ago

    Bill of Sale is probably cool with most buyers, but I have to admit I would get cold feet should a seller present me with a legal document outlining all of the conditions of the sale, etc. That would seem like overkill and make me run if I was the buyer. I would be worried about what they are covering up and trying to protect themselves against.

    #27 6 years ago
    Quoted from tpellowe:

    Go with the Bill of Sale -As Is - No Warranty stated nor implied. Game name, year, serial number, make, sign, date. Done. I have never done this however not bad practice.

    I've had a few people who requested a bill of sale but more importantly I had to produce a few when buying my house because they couldn't "source" some of the money (a bunch of b.s. hoops we all have to jump through after the housing collapse e.t.c.)

    #28 6 years ago

    Bill of sale is also good for insurance purposes. It's hard to prove you paid for something without a receipt.

    This whole thing is no big deal, really. As a buyer, I'll sign something like that. I know it's "as is". It just helps the seller if they don't know me. As a seller, those few details of name, serial number and "as is no warranty" give you a lot of protection from the transaction.

    Disclaimer. I have no legal training

    #29 6 years ago

    Thanks all. Anyone have any samples I could see?
    As always with these groups, I find it very interesting to see the responses range from "no big deal, write up a short bill of sale" all the way to "you shouldnt need one"

    #30 6 years ago

    Is this his first pin purchase? Maybe he buys a lot of stuff on ebay and he's used to that Paypal guarantee and safety. Once he play tests it he'll probably feel more comfortable with the purchase. I agree that a hardcore legal document would make me feel that the seller was trying to hide something and protect themselves. But a simple hand written bill of sale having the names of the parties, machine name, serial number, price, and saying that the buyer tested it before leaving and is satisfied, sold as-is, no warranty would be alright.

    #31 6 years ago
    Quoted from Nevus:

    Disclaimer. I have no legal training

    but he plays a lawyer on the Pinside forum!

    #32 6 years ago
    Quoted from NJGecko:

    Thanks all. Anyone have any samples I could see?

    Something along these lines would work just fine. I would copy/paste into a word doc and edit as you see fit.

    http://www.billofsale.biz/bill_of_sale_misc.pdf

    #33 6 years ago
    Quoted from NJGecko:

    Thanks all. Anyone have any samples I could see?
    As always with these groups, I find it very interesting to see the responses range from "no big deal, write up a short bill of sale" all the way to "you shouldnt need one"

    BILL OF SALE

    1 - 1995 Supremo Eleganto Pinball Machine

    Sold AS IS

    Date:________

    TOTAL:_______

    Buyer:_______

    Seller: ______

    #34 6 years ago

    If he's giving you cash, there is no way I'd make him sign a bill of sale. Even if he tried to take you to small claims court, he would have to prove you made a promise you didn't keep. I have no idea how he'd do that. With check or PayPal, he can reverse the transaction, then it's you suing him and that's not a fun situation to be in.

    However, I have taken non refundable deposits on games to be picked up at a later date. In that case, yes, I have either written or signed something every time. Both that I received money, and needed to be paid in full by a certain date.

    I'd sell to anyone with cash, I'd only take PayPal from people with a very very good reputation.

    Quoted from NJGecko:

    My gut is saying he could be the kind of person to be get it home, come back in a week and say he noticed something or he isn't happy with it or something like that and either demand a refund or money back.

    #35 6 years ago
    Quoted from jalpert:

    If he's giving you cash, there is no way I'd make him sign a bill of sale. Even if he tried to take you to small claims court, he would have to prove you made a promise you didn't keep. I have no idea how he'd do that.

    If the buyer had a buddy with him upon pick up, the buyer could take the seller to small claims and use the buddy as a witness against the seller. Even if it was a cash deal.

    I've watched enough Judge Wapner to know that a small signed piece of paper seals the deal in small claims court. Besides, it only takes 10 seconds to write and sign one.

    #36 6 years ago

    Learned the hard way to always provide a bill of sale where buyer and
    seller sign. Nothing fancy, just that its being sold as-is with no guarantee
    and sale is final. Each party gets a copy. Too many lawyers out there looking
    to make a fast buck.
    Steve

    #37 6 years ago

    I keep reading the title of this thread as "Anyone ever make a buyer sign a translite?" probably because of the nearby (at time of print) thread titled "WTB STTNG Alternate Translite".

    #38 6 years ago

    Well...problem solved. When I tried to get the guy to talk to me on the phone he suddenly backed out and said he was going to go a different direction.
    Yea, this was a bad deal in the makings...

    On a better note, it means ToTAN will make its appearance at Allentown!

    #39 6 years ago

    Sounds like good news all the way around!

    #40 6 years ago

    Your instincts were right. Trust them a bit more.

    #41 6 years ago

    So I am the only one here that warranties a used machine rather then tries to find a way to tell the buyer tough luck?? Maybe you guys should focus on quality rather than covering your butt?

    #42 6 years ago

    Unless you are trying to get away with something (which i don't think) a bill of sale is good for both the buyer and seller, its just good business.

    #43 6 years ago
    Quoted from markmon:

    So I am the only one here that warranties a used machine rather then tries to find a way to tell the buyer tough luck?? Maybe you guys should focus on quality rather than covering your butt?

    ???

    I just sold a pin recently. Found out after the fact that plastic ramp had a split in the bottom that I had never seen. New ramp was a little over $50. I PayPal'd the money to him.

    No warranty involved.....just my own ethics and reputation.

    #44 6 years ago

    If you've never sold a game to someone who has done something stupid by not knowing what they were doing in the first 30 days, consider yourself lucky.

    I always help out, these are old machines and moving them is stressful. But there is no way I'm putting it in writing. I can be a stand up guy without a contract, but if they performed some amateur surgery on something that didn't need it, I don't need to be on the hook for that.

    Quoted from markmon:

    So I am the only one here that warranties a used machine rather then tries to find a way to tell the buyer tough luck?? Maybe you guys should focus on quality rather than covering your butt?

    #45 6 years ago

    Trust your instincts. We had that sort of feeling about an ebay buyer once (not a pin). He asked weird questions like that, and told us not to get insurance on the shipment. So of course we insured the crap out of it, took tons of pictures, and packaged it like a Ming vase.

    Sure enough, he claimed after receiving it that it had been horribly damaged. We sent him the insurance claim number and all our photos documenting how carefully we'd packed it.

    Never heard from him again.

    #46 6 years ago
    Quoted from jalpert:

    If you've never sold a game to someone who has done something stupid by not knowing what they were doing in the first 30 days, consider yourself lucky.
    I always help out, these are old machines and moving them is stressful. But there is no way I'm putting it in writing. I can be a stand up guy without a contract, but if they performed some amateur surgery on something that didn't need it, I don't need to be on the hook for that.

    I don't put anything in writing either. But I tell them if they need any help to let me know. And if something goes wrong I fix it. Most the time suggestions is all that's required. But if I had to do sine board repair that would be fine as well.

    #47 6 years ago
    Quoted from markmon:

    I don't put anything in writing either. But I tell them if they need any help to let me know. And if something goes wrong I fix it. Most the time suggestions is all that's required. But if I had to do sine board repair that would be fine as well.

    That's good for the buyer who wants extra rubber bands for the flappers and the spinney whatchamacallit.

    #48 6 years ago

    I tell people they are welcome to come play and inspect the pin as much as they want before they take it and are under no obligation to buy.

    But I make sure to let them know the game is 20-40+ years old and is guaranteed to break, quite possibly before they get it home. If they are uncomfortable with that they should buy from a retailer who charges retail prices for retailer headaches.

    I don't like to sell to anyone that does not own at least one pin for 3-6 months.

    Maybe you guys are selling to people just up the road from you, but for me a few hour round trip is where most of my pins are going and there is no way I am going to offer any kind of warranty express or implied.

    #49 6 years ago
    Quoted from markmon:

    So I am the only one here that warranties a used machine rather then tries to find a way to tell the buyer tough luck?? Maybe you guys should focus on quality rather than covering your butt?

    I've got 40 some pins in perfect shape, but there is always something breaking on them.

    That is what makes pinball real, broken machines.

    They break when they are brand new, and they break when they are 40 years old.

    Unless I state otherwise, they are 100% when they leave my shop.

    =

    I think it's cool you offer a guarantee, but I don't have the time to mess with all that personally.

    #50 6 years ago

    This is an actual really good informative post that enriches pinside.

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