Weren't prices going up In 2008 and still continued to go up until this day? I dont think the overall economy effects hobbies such as pins and other luxury items?

Take it to an auction...it will leave with a new owner.
Auctions as of late are simply crazy money.

I agree with all posts here and I wish you guys were local to sell to me. There are so many games that get modded beyond belief to drive up the cost and they don't change the game... They just change the personal enjoyment of the owner. They are 'sunk costs' in economic terms and sellers should consider all the enjoyment they got.

If I go to Vegas and lose some money (hope small) I chalk that up to 'entertainment.' As a result, if I lose $200, $400, I think I came out even. It was an experience like going to see a show.

I say the same thing about going to Hollywood Casino here in PA. $200 is my limit.

Thats why I make all my mods easily removable and give the option to the buyer to purchase at a cheaper price without the mods . Your right most sellers dont tho

Best part is you will never have to hear about it again. And you don't have to wait around for people to come to your house to look at it and then decide they want one of your other games instead.

Not too long ago I was spending 5, 7, 9K plus for top B/W 90's games, NIB Stern LE's and now I just cannot justify those prices over the pins I'm currently collecting, meaning the funfactor is on par for me with an early 80's Bally and the very high priced stuff thats can cost 6 times that. Thats not to say I don't want GOTLE or Hobbit but unless must have themes come up like Aliens I just do not have any desire to spend that much anymore,I love TWDLE but man it cost me 9200 as I had to add a shaker, which was bullshit, that pin has ended NIB for me with Stern, what I'm trying to say is that while a countries current economic status can play a role I think prices have gotten out of hand and maybe others like myself have had it, I could buy every new LE that comes out if I want but I don't want to, not anymore anyway. When I first started in 2009 TOTAN was a 3500 game, Congo was 1800 game, and Spiderman which would be considered an LE by todays Stern standards was 5K NIB. I'm hoping that the bubble bursts soon, but who knows.

I don't think many sellers would take out all their mods. Maybe color DMD's and a few other items but for the most part sellers do not. You'd take out the piano, camera, car, lower LEDs, and other nonfunctional mods from your TZ? I wouldn't think so. Those don't have a good separate resale market.

your car analogy i think is flawed imo. new car sales beat a record going back 8 years. people trade in their used cars for the new models, saturating the secondary market of used. new cars continue to increase in price though.

Not sure the pinball market in Toronto has slowed much at all. There are very few, if any used huo A-list Sterns available- particularly the premium or LE models. When they do become available (ie: get listed on one of the local pinball sites), they seem to sell very quickly. It seems that more of the high end Bally-Williams restored A listers can take a bit longer. Biggest issue locally is the $Cdn currency. NIB Stern premiums/LEs are now in excess of $10k Cdn.

This^ It baffles me that with the state of the economy past and present how so many people can afford NIB and high end pins. It also makes me wonder, just how many people spend far beyond their means on purpose just to buy pins putting themselves in debt for the sake of ownership?? For me no pin on earth is worth me being broke to own it no matter how awesome it is.

Yep I wld if new buyer wanted and id keep them and use them on another pin or sell them on ebay if needed for a discounted price. The customer/ buyer is always right

I think people only buy what they can afford to lose ? I hope no one is going in debt buying toys ? Most people I have meant are pretty well off and can afford to be in this hobby

Are you quoting the movie Space Jam? You don't have kids... maybe not...

You can't see credit card debt, car debt, school, house, etc debt on the surface. You can't see savings for college, retirement, etc. I think you'd be surprised what people do...

Huh ? Space jam ? Never seen it actually

Sadly, some of these guys have built debt trying to keep up with the pinhead next door.

I've met a few...

I understand that kinda debt bc most are nessisty but pins are luxury toys but your right people will do just about anything lol

It happens a whole lot more than you'd think. I've known people who have actually had to seek counseling for it. Financially and mentally.

True...
https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/credit-card-data/average-credit-card-debt-household/

There's always that one guy that has to one up the other lol

Yea I guess it cld become a addiction in a sense . I was huge into gun collecting before I got into pins and I spent more money than id care to mention but luckily everything I bought has went up in value considerably

My mid sized private employer's wholesale business is doing just fine. We are in the building/remodeling industry. Nearly every employee received a raise this year, and our sales are up for a fifth straight year. Other friends of mine that sell items in a small "luxury" business are seeing their best year ever. Sure, people struggle everywhere, but I tend to look exactly in front of my situations and honestly, I just don't see the this so called "bad" economy everyone is complaining about. 401K? People putting their faith in that witchcraft are helpless to begin with...

If you think the economy is in dire shape, you should probably start looking for a new career/job. The secret is out, companies are trying to demand way more from employees than they should. They still think people are afraid to lose thier job. Don't be that victim. You are better than that and you know it! Find a place that demands respect and you will be a much happier person and have less stress.

Now back on topic, I just sold a game for 1750. Sales always pick up around the holidays. Every simgle week someone posts on Pinside about how "prices will fall like a rock". Well, IT NEVER HAPPENS. So just stop. It didn't happen in 2000, 2009, or 2013 and it is not going to happen this year either! Prices have steadily gone up on most machines in the last 15 years. Will it continue? Who knows. I will be waiting to buy if the prices do drop!

Are you saying putting money in a 401k is bad? That's absurd. And you can invest that 401k in anything you want. Put it in cash if you want.... Point is tax deferred savings and planning for the future is extremely smart.

I think it's definitely a buyer's market. I think that will only continue and increase in that direction in the foreseeable future.

2015 was a year of attrition and challenges. JPOP, SKIP-B, Vonnie D all appeared to blow up on the launching pad. JJP had challenges. Chicago Gaming had challenges. Dutch Pinball had challenges. Heighway had challenges but shipped games. Spooky was a big winner.

2016 could be a year of visions realized. We could have new games from Stern, Spooky, Heighway, JJP, Dutch, Chicago Gaming (new remake), and others like the Timeshock group and Pinball Circus.

I believe all these new games will create a market filled with used games as people try to get space/money for new games. I also hope the completion leads to better NIB pricing as well.

It seems some companies are trying to find the breaking point or ceiling of what people are willing to pay.

2016 should be interesting.

Never said that. I have multiple 401k plans, trusts, stocks, and other private investments. Diversification is your best investment. Trust me.

Let me ask a question of you... If you knew you were going to die at age 50 and you could not spend ANY of your 401k "retirement" money without huge penalties, would you still invest $ in it. If so, why?

Don't assume that those plans are the best for everyone. They are actually designed so that the investors using that money benefit the most. If you realize this, you are much better off in your investing future.

Famous last words. lol.

If I KNEW it... Maybe. I could pass that tax dereral on to my kids and generation skip it. Depends on personal goals and financial situation. Way to many unknowns in that. Everyone is different and most don't know the day of their departure so saving for the future is smart.

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I recently sold a Getaway on here in one day and had two people in line behind the first buyer. I was asking $2900 and it was a nice Getaway with extras.

I'm just making a list of nasty things to say to you, Kaneda. Don't worry...this'll go south really soon.

I agree. We are in new territory that this hobby hasn't been in, in a really long time with the potential for multiple manufacturers to release games at the same time. I know the hobby has grown and more people are buying games, but it's impossible to know the collective buying bandwidth. I hope every company sells enough to stay in the game.

I do agree with you as well on a lot of people in the hobby's expectations when selling games. I got my first pin in 2003. No one seemed to pay as close attention to condition then and deals seemed a lot easier to strike. The stakes and the dollar amounts are higher now of course and that has a lot to do with it. I also think people take so much pride in their pins it's harder for them to let them go at a loss or less than the perceived worth. I think that's natural when you unboxed the game and it's your baby, restored a game and put tons of time in it, or modded it up with everything you could.

How is it a "buyer's market" when people are asking more than ever for crappier titles?

They may not be SELLING at those prices but it certainly isn't a buyer's market these days, on anything.

Maybe project EMs but that's always been the case.

There's no doubt about that. The market is definitely moving towards saturation. The used market feels saturated already, and then you have more new releases on the horizon than ever.

I feel prices got inflated due to so many new people finding the hobby over the past 3-5 years, and now they've all gotten their pins, and the industry has a ton of new companies all geared up to sell them new machines they may not be ready to buy anymore. There does seem to be a market decline on the horizon that we are seeing the beginning of now.

I agree it's definitely a buyer's market right now, and it feels like it's only going to move more in that direction over the next year or two.

Well that barometer should hold for any pin then. I can tell you that I spend Far Less in this hobby annually then what I pull per month. But I have a family with one entering college next year and the other overlapping two years later.

I also noticed it is harder to make money and find a decent woman these days.....

Chicago market is pretty bare at the moment. I'd anticipate it would be a great time to sell!

A lot of this is a matter of perspective and making a definitive case in either direction is really impossible. I think a buyers market has to do with selection and competitive pricing.

Selection wise, I have a lot of options. All the internet options like Pinside, Craigslist, Mr Pinball, eBay, Facebook, etc...I can quickly compare pricing and contact a lot of people if I want. I don't get caught up in asking price. In my opinion deals happen all the time, the details aren't always advertised. I know this has been the case in my personal experience buying and selling.

I can still go to auctions and get routed games if I want.

With the growth of the hobby has come lots of new collectors in the Nashville area. These guys own multiple games and are constantly looking to buy and sell.

I think we've seen a lot of the A titles come down in price as a result of MMR and speculation of new titles. Sterns VE's have affected the price of Iron Man and Spiderman. One thing we haven't seen yet is competition lowering the price of NIB games. Most companies seem to be looking for the ceiling of what we are willing to pay. 2016 could see a change there with everything hitting at once and companies like people Heighway selling games at 6k and playfields to swap at 4K.

Another thing to consider is that pinball machines have almost always increased in price over time. I bought my TZ for $1,300 and my first MM for $4,000. I don't think increased prices over time necessarily negates a buyers market. If you own pins that go up in value, you have more money when you sell them to buy other games.

Pin prices in our area have always been higher. Finding a good deal in the chicagoland area is pretty rare. Seems like its always a good time to sell here.

That being said I had no problem selling my heavily modded Tron Pro. It sold last week, pretty much the day after I listed it, for over 7K and I had a couple of people in line after him. So people are still willing to pay decent money for great titles.

I didn't mean the prices were high, there just isn't a lot for sale. Although, I did manage to find six machines last week, so I'm set on projects for a while.

If your pin is over priced it's gonna sit if it's been on for months and isn't gone hint hint it's overpriced for the current market.simple really or if your rude to people making offers don't want to counter offer or send ignorant responses.people would rather buy something else than deal with your nonsense.this could also effect your sale as well.

I think you need to update your thread title. HIGH $$$ pins are taking longer to sell and prices are dropping.

I have posted for a while now that the reality is the high end pinball secondary market is dropping hard. Your over generalization makes it much too simple.

As I see it the pinball hobbyist, collector, player market is continuing to grow at an alarming rate. This is evidenced by growth in number of active Pinside users (and other pinball social foums), real life perceptions from meeting new players (heck in the Madison area alone I know 6 new to pinball guys in the past year that are buying almost everything they can find in the entry level range B listers), increase in competitive play, and more route players.

The reality is that those people new to the hobby rarely enter with multiple NIB or high $$$ game purchases. They test the waters with a 2k range DMD and go from there. This has resulted in all the 1500 games now being 2-2500 games and many of the 2500 games now being 3500 games, along with a few of them becoming 4500 games. We have also seen the old 'crappy' gottliebs and such get more respect and the prices continue up. Reality in my world is that LOTS of new people looking for entry into collecting, owning, and playing.

This is a VERY different world from those that are buying every LE, NIB, botique game. Many of the people buying those games are buying because they want the newest shiny thing. They are running out of space but still want more. They are starting to see that they can no longer resell for super inflated prices as the market of buyers is much smaller. For a while we saw prices as stagnant on these higher end cost games and many colelctors said to themselves 'I'll just keep it if I can't get X for it". Well more time has passed and now they are realizing they will NEVER get 'X' for it, so they are still either sitting on the games or dropping the prices to where they sell.

TLDR, short version.

Entry buyers/ demand is VERY different from high$ buyers/demand. All evidence supports this. High dollar pins will continue to drop. Entry level pins continue to get sucked into colelctions and prices go up. Buy what you enjoy/can afford and stop caring about the $$$ value over time. What I get out of pinball is so much more than I could ever put in.

And as the new entries learn more about the hobby and experience some of the high end titles and NIB titles , doesn't it stand to reason they may want to buy a more expensive title in the future and thus create a cycle that maintains the pricing or increases demand for those titles? That's what happens in a healthy hobby. But I am also not disillusioned into thinking this is a hobby for lower income brackets when it comes to the top tier machines.

I don't sell too often, but I have learned that whatever I am selling to go ahead and roll it around to the garage to show to prospective buyers. It's too distracting to have it in the game room, and I don't enjoy the uncomfortable conversation explaining that nothing else that they see is for sale...

Well said.

A "buyer's market" means prices are down, demand is down, supply is up.

As far as I can tell prices are up, demand is up, supply is up. Just cause games aren't selling (or don't seem to be - see the $3500 Flinstones that's been for sale since the NIxon Administration) at these ridiculous prices everybody is asking doesn't mean it's a "buyer's market."

And yeah, there are more ways to sell games than ever but it's all the same crap. Most people put their stuff for sale here, craigslist, facebook, and mr. pinball at the same time.

Whysnow, your market analysis is on track. But I think you're over-generalizing who's buying what kind of pin. I know of several folks who entered the hobby in the last 12 months who have bought NIB games. That was unthinkable to me until I had 5 years under my belt. I'm a veteran collector now, and I'm actually buying more of the older pins. It's simple math: I can buy 3 great older pins, or 1 new pin that hurts my eyes.

A coworker of mine is buying an IMVE from a distributor, as his first pin. I think he's typical of a lot of new-to-pinball folks who want their first game to be "maintenance-free". Thankfully there are a lot of us older pinheads to help with those out-of-box failures.