I Really hope they make it. The rumor mill has stopped my hunt for one. I'd hate to pay 5k for a nice used one only months later to have new ones available.

Ben, just as an interesting discussion because I can see both sides of it.

First, no one 'owes' boutique makers anything, they should stand or fall on their own merits, if everyone wants to buy a LOTR remake that's not Stern's problem, that on you guys.

I was reading an intro to 'Best Science Fiction' from 1983, they were going over the state of the industry, basically it said there were like 4-5 'big names' like Asimov, McCaffrey and so on, and they were like 2% of the authors but they were selling like 90% of the books, the young guys were not being promoted or selling in big numbers. It was saying the publishers were not supporting the small guys, the publishers were selling the big guys since they could make money rather than take a chance on the little guys. However, what happened? Some authors who were 'little guys' paid their dues, and became the major players, guys like George R.R. Martin, is arguably as popular as Asimov was in his day.

My point is, small guys should not expect it to be handed to them, they have to make it or die trying.

I am a huge move lover, I watch probably 75-80 movies a year, and you know what I like all types the blockbusters like 'Avengers' and smaller indi type movies like 'Reservoir Dogs' which had a $1.2 million budget. It's a free world, don't think Tarantino was owed anything, he made a movie because he wanted to, he wanted to put his work out to the world to be seen big market, small market whatever. Reservoir Dogs didn't do too well commercially, just $4 million at the box office, but guess what QT made a name with 'Dogs' and carried on to bigger things. I don't think Quentin was as weeping and saying things like 'the big movies are killing the movie industry'.

I think it's time for small makers to man up. Put on big boy pants on and make a pinball machine that is able to compete with LOTR or MM. If that's too hard for the little guys that's on them IMO. It's not up to Stern to make it easier on the boutique makers, not every boutique maker will survive that's on them, there could be some that will become something but they have to do it the old fashioned what they need to earn it.

Why not? People keep buying so is it really their fault? LOTR VE is just a rumor but SEND MONEY NOW! just in case...

I hope that those who want a LOTR, and want NIB can get one if they are produced.

Do the VE models have full metal rails on the bottom of the playfields? Do they have the build quality of the originals? These are honest questions, not trolling. I have a LOTR from 2004, so I am not in on a VE, but there are certain features of mine that I would not want to give up. Yes, upgraded sound would be very nice. Better cabinet decals would be nice, but my machine is typically between others, so that's not an issue for me personally.

What I am saying is that there was a HUGE quality difference between the LOTR I have and the Avatar Pro I had. It would be sad to see a degredation in quality for a quick profit.

Chris

You mean full metal PF supports? The VE do not, they have peg legs, guess what that's a $50 part, people can buy for themselves, probably metal apron could be bought (if there is a demand). It's far harder to upgrade to high-res decals or better sound package on an old machine than to put on $50 PF supports.

Basically this is starting to sound like IMVE all over again, those who own (some not all) the old machine are getting panties in a bunch and worrying about how boo-hoo the new machines will have plastic apron and peg legs and snaps for lock down and therefore it's a POS. Guess what that's not your problem if you like the old version, have at it, how does that argument make it not possible for other people to want a NIB LOTR? Why don't you just say it's hurting your feelings so Stern should not do it. That's what you are saying but instead you are pretending you have a better machine because the new VE will have a plastic apron.

IMO Stern has 'maybe' six pins that would fit the criteria for a strong remake, IM obviously, Tron, SM, POTC, LOTR, TSPP. Maybe I'm missing some, and truth be told any pin like XM or AcDc would be valid in time, I mean 4-5 years from now they may be able to sell another 500 AcDc pins or Metallica. But at the current time with Met and AcDc market satiated, the demand is for those six I pointed out. If Stern wants to sell VE games they need to go with the popular ones, the ones like LOTR that are listed at $5200 un modded 10 year old game. If there is a market for $5200 10 year old, than there is a market for a $5k nib.

Just as long as the VE plays the same, who cares about plastic aprons and snap lock downs. Cheaper parts should mean cheaper prices but hell no Stern will bend us over so they can put more money in their pockets.

The only one responsible for that is you... GO STERN GO!

How's that...I won't pay rediculous prices, I guess you will tho.

Can't see them get the license to do a rerun of LOTR, at the same time as the Hobbit is on the streets.

Stern putting out LOTR VE right before Hobbit is released would be a real nut check to Jack/JJP
image-727.jpg

I'm still skeptical that Stern would be able to sell enough to make the investment from upgrading from Whitestar to SAM worth it. I think they would need to keep the price at $5K or less in order to sell more than a couple hundred of them. I sold a mint HUO LOTR a few months back but I would be tempted to buy a VE if it offered improved sound, higher resolution art, and snappier flippers that don't turn into wet noodles during long games provided the pricetag was $5K or less. Same goes for TSPP as well.

Stern is not here
http://www.middleearth.com/current_licensees.html

If that was the only change, I agree you would be getting an upgrade.

Will it have the coffin lock?
Will the display be tilted?
Will it have rails or pegs for servicing the game?
Will the lock down be retained by luggage latches?
We heard the new legs are made from thinner metal, was this confirmed?
Will the stand-off leg protectors be plastic or metal?
Will shaker motor support be included or possible?
Will the side rails swoop down, and encircle the flipper buttons?

I do like the new tilted display, and the stand-off leg metal protectors.

And, I like the trend toward factory LED's.

Maybe if we look at the recent VE games made,
and ACDC LED PRO, we could get a guess of what direction they are going.

From the IM Remake thread

This is a golden title for them they know they will sell. The real question is will these come out now along side with hobbit.... Right now would ultimately make the most sense for them to fully capitalize on a LOTR VE... But with the huge success of walking dead etc they can hold out on LOTR & when they need to generate revenue if they put out a dog they can just have this title as a go to game. It's not a matter of IF a LOTR VE come out it's WHEN... So to all of you that want a LOTR VE it's only a matter of time... But is that time now ?!

The fact that Stern did a test run with the Iron Man VE's which proved success & Stern recently helped aid ColorDmd for LOTR , & with the timing of hobbit I'm leaning towards yes... Now is the time.

I thought Stern had a second assembly line that was sitting idle?
Seems they should use it, and get revenue rolling while the economy is good enough.

Is this a true statement? First I've heard of such a thing but would undoubtedly lend support to a LoTR vault edition, possibly even with a ColorDMD?

If they do release a LOTR VE, you can pretty much bet on Tron VE being next up. Personally, it does make me pause on dropping big cash for NIB or even HUO games right now. I tend to lean a little more conservatively than many here and this makes me want to see where the trends settle first. Have said that, I do like the idea of games becoming more attainable across the board, but can't help having some mixed feelings all the same.

Would rather have Stern make brand new, innovative pins rather than a retread (even a good retread).

This is where things get a little dicey IMO. So LOTR had a LE release years ago. Now they release a VE addition that is improved beyond that LE, with at addition of a color DMD and likely other features like LEDs, better sound, HD cabinet art, ect. To me this would open the doors to premium releases for VE editions that could be improved beyond that of the original LEs.

If it happens, I think the most interesting part will be the price tag. If BOM has anything to do with the difference between Pro and Premium prices then the this one should be priced much closer to a Premium in todays market.

This kind of comment is what really bugs me about the remakes thing. People keeping cash in their mattress isn't good for the hobby.

Not saying that an overpriced market (both used and NIB) is good, but an uncertain used market along with ever increasing NIB prices is a bad combination unless you have unlimited cash/space.

Couldn't agree more.

Like I said earlier in this thread, Stern would really be pulling a rabbit out of it's butt if they are able to price a LOTR VE at $5k.

5k would be almost a have to buy 6k would be a pass

I have a 2004 LOTR too. I would expect an upgrade to the playfield and plastics artwork too (the resolution is terrible on the original). I agree that the original cab art is fine as it is. New HD plastics for 2004 LOTR owners would be a HUGE win.

I had Avatar Pro next to LOTR for about 6 months. I didn't notice any quality difference. I swear people just make this shit up.

EDIT: actually I do remember the sound being much better on Avatar. The only reason I sold AVA was because the gameplay was so similar to IM (to me).

No way will it cost less than IM VE, I'd expect similar pricing or a bit more.

That's pretty much where I am too.

Then again, I've owned the title a few times, so my desire to own the pin again isn't as high as it would be otherwise. If I had never owned it, maybe I would think $6k for a NIB LOTR would be reasonable vs buying HUO?

Maybe. But that's still about $1k more than you can get a HUO version for, so I doubt it.

I would go up to $5300 (for a modest upgrade) or $5600 (if it had a color DMD).

Why isn't JJP there either?

If they came in at $5k there's now way I could resist. However I would guess the price would be closer to $6500 myself, which puts it a bit higher than I would be able to stomach 'impulse buying'

Boy we have some serious 'LicenseGate' issues this last while on Pinside. Seems everyone has lost all licenses ever.

Of course I think people should give original games a chance because I made one. I am pretty open about my selfishness. But again, we're not even in the same league as Stern.

JJP is who should be the most concerned about a LOTR VE.

I do not see how Stern could sell the original LOTR playfield layout being sold at the current "pro" prices. It would be 6K+ for sure. If they perform adjustments for the current board generation, it will increase costs as well. I would rather just buy the original at that price. Decent ones seem to be selling for 4K-5K. I really don't want one though. It's a very long and arduous game. Some people love that fact. I really can't stand and play the same game for 30+ mins without getting distracted, wondering what else I should be doing...

#include <butthurt.h>
#include <currentowners.h>

using namespace std;

int stern(int phase1, int phase2){
int profit;
profit = phase2 - phase1;
return profit;
}

int main(){
stern(buildgames, ?);
}

Gnomes_plan.png

Yeah I'm not sure why people are jumping on Ben about his comment Re: Remakes being the death of the hobby. I guess you could infer that he's plugging his own stuff, but I don't see it that way.

Instead I think the point is, remakes don't progress anything, in any industry. They exist simply to make money, not develop or innovate or push boundaries. It's a cash in on IP, nothing more. Nothing wrong with that per-se, but it doesn't foster a hobby by any stretch.

Ben has demonstrated time and time again online that he lives to innovate, create, and push new ideas to their maximum, even in the face of no profitability. A little slack is warranted imo; to suggest he's pulling some sort of profiteering move here as an 'indie' is a bit disrespectful to Ben's innovation-rich past.

I wouldn't call it selfish Ben ... I'd call it proud! You've made a great game.

Haha... no

Yeah, Avatar is built just fine...it's just a "lower BOM" game - there's just not as much stuff on it. One ramp, very few mechanical moving parts...so in that sense, LOTR is more complex - there's more "stuff" on it....but that has nothing to do with build quality. For what it is, Avatar is built great. I had Avatar LE for quite some time with thousands of plays and it played like a champ.

Ben - your game is really cool - but I think original games will get more scrutiny before people decide to purchase. With licensed themes, people see "Metallica" and just say "F*CKING COOL! I'M BUYING METALLICA!!!!". With an original theme, people are more like "Hmmm, cool...ok, lets see what this is all about". They're going to really have to be moved by the theme, art, and sound package to bite. I enjoy your game, but for me the art and sound aren't quite what what I want in a game. With a license I like, I'll be more forgiving because I already have an attachment. Lebowski could be a total piece of shit, but I'd still want it because its Lebowski.

I think the first boutique that has the "complete package" - design, toys, code, art, and sound - will have have really great sales.

You're not innovating when you just dump out a half made game with shit code and the buyers are expected for it to eventually evolve into something good. Then, when it isn't popular, support is just dropped and you're left with an unfinished turd.
I think the VE model can actually help Stern be more innovative by freeing up their creative talent to focus on producing a more complete product by giving them more time while producing the necessary cash flow to continue.
The pinball hobby is slowly picking up steam with new collectors, I personally feel that a lot of games are priced beyond the means of some hobbyists. I actually welcome the flooding of the market of new titles at more reasonable prices to bring more people into the hobby.

The only people butt hurt over remakes are concerned about the value of their precious collectible and not about the throttling of innovation. I think that argument is horseshit.

The selling of more games producing more cash which in turn leads to more games. It's a win win for everyone (except people that paid 10k for a MM and then a remake was released).

Also true.

I think the VE model can actually help Stern be more innovative by freeing up their creative talent to focus on producing a more complete product by giving them more time while producing the necessary cash flow to continue.

Doubt it. TWD seems to be as complete as MET or ACDC, or ST was on release. These VE models seem more like 'filler' games, not 'buy us development time' games.

The pinball hobby is slowly picking up steam with new collectors, I personally feel that a lot of games are priced beyond the means of some hobbyists. I actually welcome the flooding of the market of new titles at more reasonable prices to bring more people into the hobby.

Agreed, but these VE games aren't cheaper than used games and I don't think they will drive used prices that low anyway because as you alluded to, there more buyers now. MMR is the only example of what you're describing and at 8k it's no steal either.

The only people butt hurt over remakes are concerned about the value of their precious collectible and not about the throttling of innovation. I think that argument is horseshit.

agree

New collectors coming in and many old collectors downsizing and/or getting out all together... the market flood can do some good but in the end it will definitely do more harm than good... sorry.

Well, it could just be my perception. It just "felt" cheap to me, but I can't really explain why. Much less going on playfield wise, and I am sorry, the pegs suck. I did not like working on Avatar at all, while I find working on LOTR is fine.

Just personal preference I guess.

Chris

I'm sure this has been done before, but I can't help myself when the opportunity to photoshop something arrises.

stern.jpg

While LOTR is a game worthy of a VE run, I'd rather see them do something that's more rare. It's not like there is a shortage of LOTR's out there.

NBA VE! lol

I agree, but at the same time, when I look at Stern's catalog, there really aren't any other titles that make any more sense than LOTR.

What would you like to see? I'm assuming something like Star Gazer isn't going to happen.

I cant imagine a BETTER time to capitalize on LOTR VE than right NOW... or actually, right at the next movie release whenm presumably:
1. Middle Earth hype is at an all-time high
2. JJP send out their first message about supplier problems and slipping delivery schedules...

Dont underestimate Stern enjoying the ability to poke JJP in the eye after all Jack's badmouthing.

Imagine this sales pitch:

"
Excited about The latest Middle Earth movie?
Excited about continuing the experience in your very own game room?
Disappointed to may have to wait 1-18 months to get your JJP pre-paid machine?
Worried about how that Smaug really is going to look?
Well, worry no longer- we've got a deal for you!!!!
Refund your JJP money, order a NIB, refreshed LOTR and it'll be in your gameroom by the end of the week!
Oh.... and you can put the extra $3K difference in price back in the bank!

I think a lot of old collectors are getting out due to the cost. I hear old timers bitch frequently about the prices they used to pay. I can see why it would burn them up to see what the prices are today.

Just remember, whatever price point a LOTR VE would come out at, you have to add $400 to that.

I know you guys all hate that game, but I don't think it's bad.