(Topic ID: 243180)

LETS Drill BK3000 to properly add magnasave button? NEED a template from BK BK2K


By Whysnow

5 months ago



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  • Latest reply 3 months ago by kermit24
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There are 206 posts in this topic. You are on page 2 of 5.
#51 5 months ago
61824AE5-F6E5-4366-8526-C85AF698FE56 (resized).jpeg
#52 5 months ago
Quoted from Chalkey:

A lot of talk but still no sawdust

I want to see some sawdust!

sawdust.jpg
#53 5 months ago

Wire up an old rock band foot pedal. Those are a dime a dozen and can find them anywhere.

#54 5 months ago

Are you guys fearful it will reduce value of the machines? They already drop 500-800 the minute you open the box so why not drill the hole and make it more playable? I don't see the second hand market having a problem with a properly located magna save button...if anything its a desirable mod!

#55 5 months ago

I'm sure Stern will release an upgraded variant machine in 6 months with this included....... /rolleyes

#56 5 months ago

i played it several times and the more games I played the easier it was to use the magma save successfully. I think it’s just a matter of getting used to the new button location.

#57 5 months ago

You can also c@ckslap the button!

#58 5 months ago
Quoted from Pinballlew:

i played it several times and the more games I played the easier it was to use the magma save successfully. I think it’s just a matter of getting used to the new button location.

No that's impossible it's totally unusable per OP drill a holes everyday

#59 5 months ago

What would vid do?

#60 5 months ago
Quoted from Dkjimbo:

Are you guys fearful it will reduce value of the machines? They already drop 500-800 the minute you open the box so why not drill the hole and make it more playable? I don't see the second hand market having a problem with a properly located magna save button...if anything its a desirable mod!

More "playable?" Sounds like you mean "easier to play." "Properly located magna save button?" Sounds like you mean "where it's always been" and "where I'm already used to it being." Anyone who wants that and is willing to drill a hole into their cabinet to make it happen, it's your game - go right ahead. You will certainly achieve both of those goals and that's totally fine if that's your personal preference.

But doing so for me would mean the game is no longer 100% the same game that Steve Ritchie designed as the third in the series. And that's my personal preference for the game that I want to play.

Neither of our personal preferences are right or wrong - they're just our personal preferences. I'm not trying to convince anyone in favor of relocating the button to the side of the cabinet that they should not do it; I'm just stating why my preference is my preference.

Speaking for myself, making a change like that alters the game significantly from the designer's intention. To me, it'd be like me altering the playfield to (for example) seal off the outlanes. It's just something that I personally would never do. But I could see (for example) someone want to (not permanently) modify their game to do exactly that if, say, they are introducing their young children to pinball and want "their game(s)" to have longer ball times while they're just starting out.

Although - come to think of it - if I did permanently seal off the outlanes, I wouldn't need to worry about the location of the magna save button ...

#61 5 months ago
Quoted from Blacksun:

I'm sure Stern will release an upgraded variant machine in 6 months with this included....... /rolleyes

I just pray that Stern doesn't release special Black Knight: Mace of Menace, Black Knight: Crossbow of Conniptions, or Black Knight: Battle Axe of Apoplexy editions right as I'm setting up my Premium when it gets here in a few weeks.

#62 5 months ago

(If you are comparing this game in any way to the brilliance of the original BK, the location of the magna save should be the absolute least of your concerns.)
First, I'd wait a little and determine whether it's a lifetime keeper...
A. If you know it's a keeper in the home, and you want to have one tiny aspect to resemble the original -- you drill and swap lockdown bars to fix the only aspect of the game in your control...
B. If there is any chance you are selling it some day, AND dollars matter to you, then you leave it alone. I wouldn't want to let my next buyer tire kick me on a new hole.
C. If it's for location play, AND it's a keeper, then it's optional, but you leave the lockdown bar alone, so that new players see more buttons to tinker with.
-mof

#63 5 months ago
Quoted from cosmokramer:

How can they mess up on a tried and true system

I'm starting to think that Williams and Stern are two different companies.
-mof

12
#64 5 months ago
Quoted from TheRudyB:

alters the game significantly from the designer's intention.

What about if the designer intended the button to be in the right location but his employer removed it from the design (because “it has to be on the lockdown bar so new people will use it”)

Talk to the designer before assuming he intended it to be in the lockdown...

#65 5 months ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

What about if the designer intended the button to be in the right location but his employer removed it from the design (because “it has to be on the lockdown bar so new people will use it”)
Talk to the designer before assuming he intended it to be in the lockdown...

Bingo....I was about to make this same point. Steve more than likely WANTED it where it belongs but was shot down because the cheaper standard infrastructure is already in place on the lockdown bar for all typical sterns. I serious doubt he intended it this way, he was told to make it this way. But even if true he would probably never admit publicly for fear of upsetting the stern brass.

-3
#66 5 months ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Talk to the designer before assuming he intended it to be in the lockdown...

Why would you put the onus on some other dude you're the one who started this.

Don't see any sawdust in this post. Meow.

#67 5 months ago

I wish they decided to put the button on the side. It’s just so natural to have the button right next to the flipper. I understand trying something new and different but it’s not in a great place to try and save a ball.

#68 5 months ago
Quoted from Chalkey:

Why would you put the onus on some other dude you're the one who started this.
Don't see any sawdust in this post. Meow.

What is your issue with me? The constant personal attacks are getting old already.

#69 5 months ago
Quoted from Dkjimbo:

Bingo....I was about to make this same point. Steve more than likely WANTED it where it belongs but was shot down because the cheaper standard infrastructure is already in place on the lockdown bar for all typical sterns. I serious doubt he intended it this way, he was told to make it this way. But even if true he would probably never admit publicly for fear of upsetting the stern brass.

You seriously doubt it. Hmmm. Sounds like you really should talk to the designer before assuming he intended it to be on the side.

#70 5 months ago

Meh , if you want the button on the side you should just put it on the side . It really isn't that big of a deal , cabinet could be repaired or in the worst case replaced . I say just do it there really isn't that much at risk here .

#71 5 months ago
Quoted from trilogybeer:

cabinet could be repaired or in the worst case replaced .

Repaired?? Replaced?????
You got to be kidding me. What the #^%$ for?
For everyone that would complain about it there is just as many that would be glad it was already done.

#72 5 months ago
Quoted from arcademojo:

Repaired?? Replaced?????
You got to be kidding me. What the #^%$ for?
For everyone that would complain about it there is just as many that would be glad it was already done.

Yep repair , replace , leave as is , it really isn’t that big of a deal . He should have just altered his game then asked what people thought of it . Or better yet see if it earns more on location with after his modifications. I am not Kidding you or anyone ,else worst case scenario he needs to replace the cabinet. But as you stated it might be around 50/50 for or against this modification which puts the risk of the change much lower And since he routes the game it would be a nice experiment to see what the public thinks of the change .

#73 5 months ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

What is your issue with me? The constant personal attacks are getting old already.

I am enjoying the "personal attacks" more please

#74 5 months ago

I want the button as a foot pedal.

Steinway_grand_piano_-_pedals (resized).jpg
#75 5 months ago

Would this work?......

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#76 5 months ago

Seems like you could add a secondary leaf switch to the flipper button like traditional multi-flipper games that you need to mash the button (which you would) to activate. Would go that lazy route before plunging holes in the cabinet. Because something is new does not make it wrong. I'm getting used to it just like I'm certain people were getting used to the added side button with BK 1 and 2.

#77 5 months ago

Reading everyone's comments I can see both sides. There are those that won't drill the hole or modify their machine and the other side that will modify their machine to their personal tastes. I my opinion I am one to play the machine the way it is built pretty much. People change the menu settings to make the game easier or hard, that's okay to make the machine more enjoyable if you choose that path. Some people change the pitch different to what the recommended setting is supposed to be set at. I don't like when people change the outpost pin settings to make it harder for the ball to drain to the outside. Again it is personal preference. From a purest point of view I think it is another challenge to play the machine the way it is built.

Just like in video games when people play modify their joysticks and have turbo buttons, it gives them an advantage against people who don't modify their joysticks. When you see pinball high scores listed, whose to say some people didn't change the menu settings to make the game easier to rack up more points. When I was much younger my friends and I use to keep a high score sheet of the different home video games we use to compete against and have an asterisk next to the high score sheet if we played the game on easy, normal or hard. I play pinball to have fun with my family. I am not driven by high scores, but wish they would add a feature that everyone in the family can have their own hi-scores saved in the machine besides the overall machine hi-scores.

I did like the person that modded a pinball machine for someone with one arm, great move to make someone enjoy pinball.

Not against modding a machine, just not to the point where I feel like it is giving me a slight split second advantage compared to a person who did not move the button, but who am to say. Just my 2 cents. That's just me. Do whatever makes you happy.

#78 5 months ago
Quoted from Yoko2una:

I’ve played 3 different Pros now and I agree I’m magnasaving maybe 5% of the time.
I think if one is going to do this mod, the ideal placement is the same distance and angle as Munsters Prem/LE. That way it will look “factory” in a lineup that contains Munsters and any other future titles that have multiple buttons on the RHS.

The location of the lower flipper buttons
On Munsters sucks ,

#79 5 months ago

IMO

The button is not on the cabinet because Stern uses the same blank cabinet for every game in production then applies game specific art.

To deviate from the standard cabinet would undo a major efficiency in many arenas, require hand drilling by workers in a fast paced factory that needs to perfectly align with artwork. Every one of you fuckers would post pics of the button being in the wrong place per your hand or it’s alignment being 2mm to the left of someone else’s game.

The alternative would be custom CNC work for the cabinets which comes with inventory control, storage, supply chain, lead times, a requirement for a hard number of game specific cabinet orders & etc woes for what’s probably going to be a low run game.

Stern prolly even had the same talks in the conference rooms we are having on Pinside now “I’m not drilling the cabinets, you drill the cabinets, no way dude you”

#80 5 months ago

Bottom line, you drill a hole in the cabinet it isn’t original anymore. Not saying it shouldn’t have had it there in the first place. But I guarantee you people will think twice before permanently modding a machine. People like reversible mods. That’s all I am saying. And the fact that NOBODY has done this yet speaks volumes.

#81 5 months ago
Quoted from PW79:

IMO
The button is not on the cabinet because Stern uses the same blank cabinet for every game in production then applies game specific art.
To deviate from the standard cabinet would undo a major efficiency in many arenas, require hand drilling by workers in a fast paced factory that needs to perfectly align with artwork. Every one of you fuckers would post pics of the button being in the wrong place per your hand or it’s alignment being 2mm to the left of someone else’s game.
The alternative would be custom CNC work for the cabinets which comes with inventory control, storage, supply chain, lead times, a requirement for a hard number of game specific cabinet orders & etc woes for what’s probably going to be a low run game.
Stern prolly even had the same talks in the conference rooms we are having on Pinside now “I’m not drilling the cabinets, you drill the cabinets, no way dude you”

Not sure I buy the production line argument. Munsters Premium and LE had 4 flipper button holes in each cabinet.

#82 5 months ago
Quoted from kermit24:

Not sure I buy the production line argument. Munsters Premium and LE had 4 flipper button holes in each cabinet.

Can you play the lower and upper pfs at the same time on Munsters? I don’t understand why they didn’t just deactivate the uppers when you’re playing the lower and vice versa vs having 4 buttons?

#83 5 months ago
Quoted from Mbecker:

Can you play the lower and upper pfs at the same time on Munsters? I don’t understand why they didn’t just deactivate the uppers when you’re playing the lower and vice versa vs having 4 buttons?

Yes you can. In Munster Madness.

#84 5 months ago
Quoted from kermit24:

Not sure I buy the production line argument. Munsters Premium and LE had 4 flipper button holes in each cabinet.

Very good point

Maybe they expected to sell far more Munsters than BK?

Still tho, why did they do it like this?

To engage the customer by making it more visible?

Did they move this title up in front of others before custom cabinets could be built or just plain forget to order em until it was too late?

Not sure why I want to know so much hahaha

#85 5 months ago
Quoted from PW79:

Very good point
Maybe they expected to sell far more Munsters than BK?
Still tho, why did they did it like this?
To engage the customer by making it more visible?
Did they move this title up in front of others before custom cabinets could be built or just plain forget to order em until it was too late?
Not sure why I want to know so much hahaha

In a podcast interview, Tim Sexton claimed that newbies don’t realize a second button exists and it’s never used on location when it’s on the side of the cabinet.

#86 5 months ago
Quoted from PW79:

IMO
The button is not on the cabinet because Stern uses the same blank cabinet for every game in production then applies game specific art.
To deviate from the standard cabinet would undo a major efficiency in many arenas, require hand drilling by workers in a fast paced factory that needs to perfectly align with artwork. Every one of you fuckers would post pics of the button being in the wrong place per your hand or it’s alignment being 2mm to the left of someone else’s game.
The alternative would be custom CNC work for the cabinets which comes with inventory control, storage, supply chain, lead times, a requirement for a hard number of game specific cabinet orders & etc woes for what’s probably going to be a low run game.
Stern prolly even had the same talks in the conference rooms we are having on Pinside now “I’m not drilling the cabinets, you drill the cabinets, no way dude you”

Don’t the cabinets arrive all drilled and assembled with the artwork already on them before they first hit the line at Stern? I don’t recall Stern stocking cabinets (other than the ones that just came in en route to the line) let alone drilling and assembling them, and then adding their art on top of it. One would expect that they just order what they believe they’ll need from a long-time partner cabinetmaker. If the game doesn’t sell as well as predicted, they figure out another way to use/reuse the extras. If the game demand exceeds expectations, they order more. And it seems logical that when you order the cabinets, you include the specs for how you want the cabinet drilled in a format that is either directly readable by the cabinetmaker’s system or in a form easily convertible to it along with your artwork files. The machine drills what the file tells it to drill, whether it’s two holes or two thousand holes. But the work is done and priced by the cabinet, not by the hole per se.

As I and others already pointed out, Munsters has four flipper buttons. Restaurants don’t charge more for a well-done steak than the same steak cooked medium-rare because it was on the grill longer - they charge the same price but follow the customer’s desired spec for that instance of that particular steak. Want a better cut of beef? You’ll pay extra for that. But there won’t be a cost difference based on how long we cook it. In pinball terms, I can have the cabinets for game X done in particle board, pine, oak, mahogany or cocobolo wood - but they will all be drilled the same according to the specs I provided.

#87 5 months ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

What is your issue with me? The constant personal attacks are getting old already.

I sincerely apologize if I hurt your feelings, I considered it a little light teasing which I often take too far.

I'm goading you guys because I believe this thread is an example of pinside's habit of grossly over reacting to the smallest things and acting like they're a crime against humanity. If it is truly that big a deal drill your damned cabinet and be proud! I outlined how you could test it out with a leaf switch or guitar pedal as others suggested and nobody has even done that.

Until somebody steps up, says "this is actually a big problem for me" and puts a permanent hole in their cabinet this is all pinside's being dramatic and wanting to complain because, in my opinion, they never understood how magna save functioned to begin with. Regardless of what that other guy said about superman's balls.

If you decide you don't like the hole / button you can always patch the hole with the big metal semicircle button protectors that screw in. See? I'm trying to help I'm just also a sarcastic a-hole.

#88 5 months ago

I don't see anyone having the balls to drill a hole in the side of their cabinet to move the magna save button.

"Play better."---Steve Ritchie

#89 5 months ago
Quoted from TheRudyB:

Don’t the cabinets arrive all drilled and assembled with the artwork already on them before they first hit the line at Stern? I don’t recall Stern stocking cabinets (other than the ones that just came in en route to the line) let alone drilling and assembling them, and then adding their art on top of it. One would expect that they just order what they believe they’ll need from a long-time partner cabinetmaker. If the game doesn’t sell as well as predicted, they figure out another way to use/reuse the extras. If the game demand exceeds expectations, they order more. And it seems logical that when you order the cabinets, you include the specs for how you want the cabinet drilled in a format that is either directly readable by the cabinetmaker’s system or in a form easily convertible to it along with your artwork files. The machine drills what the file tells it to drill, whether it’s two holes or two thousand holes. But the work is done and priced by the cabinet, not by the hole per se.
As I and others already pointed out, Munsters has four flipper buttons. Restaurants don’t charge more for a well-done steak than the same steak cooked medium-rare because it was on the grill longer - they charge the same price but follow the customer’s desired spec for that instance of that particular steak. Want a better cut of beef? You’ll pay extra for that. But there won’t be a cost difference based on how long we cook it. In pinball terms, I can have the cabinets for game X done in particle board, pine, oak, mahogany or cocobolo wood - but they will all be drilled the same according to the specs I provided.

Maybe they’re sitting on a pile of Munsters cabinets now (if sales are indeed slow, who knows) & they don’t want to order another very game specific cabinet or modify existing stock.

I’m talking out my ass btw, maybe they really did make it front & center to engage noobs

#90 5 months ago
Quoted from PW79:

Maybe they’re sitting on a pile of Munsters cabinets now (if sales are indeed slow, who knows) & they don’t want to order another very game specific cabinet or modify existing stock.
I’m talking out my ass btw, maybe they really did make it front & center to engage noobs

There is no reason Stern couldn't make a jig up in 20 minutes and blast a second hole in any standard cabinet if they wanted to. They just didn't see the need for it.

#91 5 months ago

While I understand the "awkward" and "not where we are used to it being" arguments, I do not think that is the main issue with the magnasave on this game. I'm pretty sure the low percentage of saves has more to do with magnet placement and/or strength than it does with button placement. I had a number of games where my hand was hovering over the button, hit it at exactly the "right" time, and watched the ball fly down the outlane anyway. It simply is no where near as effective as the ones on the original BK or any other magnasave game that I have played (and I've played most if not all of them). I'm still glad they brought the feature back, and it in no way ruins the game for me, but it's a bit of a bummer. I hold out some hope that the power can be tweaked in future code that will help, but I'm not holding my breath.

As for the drilling issue...if it were me I would definitely try simulating it with a temporary fix before drilling my cab. I'm sure you could rig up some sort of simple "stick on" button rig and run the wires through the coin door or the vent holes in the bottom. That way you can see if it helps timing, and get the position just right before making sawdust.

My hunch, it will increase magnasave effectivity by exactly 0%. I'd like to be wrong though. I am also in the camp that would be concerned about resale value. Even if done "right" and looking factory, I'm not sure I would want that kind of permanent change on a game I am buying. If done sloppy or if it is awkward with the artwork, even worse. At least keep it within the area a lollipop rail would cover.

All just my opinion though...I firmly believe that if it's your game, you should do what you want to get the most enjoyment out of it. Just be aware the next potential owner might not agree and that may affect the value. Most mod choices are easy to reverse if that's the case. This one, not so easy.

#92 5 months ago
Quoted from Jediturtle:

While I understand the "awkward" and "not where we are used to it being" arguments, I do not think that is the main issue with the magnasave on this game. I'm pretty sure the low percentage of saves has more to do with magnet placement and/or strength than it does with button placement. I had a number of games where my hand was hovering over the button, hit it at exactly the "right" time, and watched the ball fly down the outlane anyway. It simply is no where near as effective as the ones on the original BK or any other magnasave game that I have played (and I've played most if not all of them). I'm still glad they brought the feature back, and it in no way ruins the game for me, but it's a bit of a bummer. I hold out some hope that the power can be tweaked in future code that will help, but I'm not holding my breath.
As for the drilling issue...if it were me I would definitely try simulating it with a temporary fix before drilling my cab. I'm sure you could rig up some sort of simple "stick on" button rig and run the wires through the coin door or the vent holes in the bottom. That way you can see if it helps timing, and get the position just right before making sawdust.
My hunch, it will increase magnasave effectivity by exactly 0%. I'd like to be wrong though. I am also in the camp that would be concerned about resale value. Even if done "right" and looking factory, I'm not sure I would want that kind of permanent change on a game I am buying. If done sloppy or if it is awkward with the artwork, even worse. At least keep it within the area a lollipop rail would cover.
All just my opinion though...I firmly believe that if it's your game, you should do what you want to get the most enjoyment out of it. Just be aware the next potential owner might not agree and that may affect the value. Most mod choices are easy to reverse if that's the case. This one, not so easy.

Thanks Jedi.

This perfectly answers why I started this thread.
I too was curious if the lack of being effective was due to the lock down placement or also due to the magnet location/power.

With multiple posts about it not being just due to reaction time/physical button location it seems like a bad idea to drill only to find out that the magnasave still does not work as originally intended.

I wonder if there is a way to make a stick on button and wire it out the right leg (utlizing the gap from the cab leg protector?)
Would be a great and removable mod to make!

#93 5 months ago
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

Would this work?......
[quoted image]

Are you serious with the foot petal thing? I thought you were kidding....

#94 5 months ago
Quoted from pinlink:

Are you serious with the foot petal thing? I thought you were kidding....

foot pedal would be VERY neat and goes well with the rocking music!

#95 5 months ago
Quoted from kermit24:

Go ahead and drill but I guarantee you; if you try to sell it most people will view this as a negative and ding the value because of it.

no disrespect, but I disagree, if anything it would add value. It should be like the other 2 BK games. I plan to do this to mine.

#96 5 months ago
Quoted from TheRudyB:

But doing so for me would mean the game is no longer 100% the same game that Steve Ritchie designed as the third in the series. And that's my personal preference for the game that I want to play.

Some of you guys get waaay too hung up on "designer intent" as gospel. For starters, I can guarantee you that no game leaving the factory is ever exactly as the designer intended. Compromises are made for cost, ease of manufacture, cost, location reliability, and did I mention cost?

Secondly, designers aren't perfect. Not even the king. They're just normal people who get paid to do a job, like you. Have you ever made a mistake at work? So have they. It's totally okay to change your machine if you think something isn't up to snuff, or if you just like it better that way.

10
#97 5 months ago

someone send me a template from an original BK or BK2K, and Ill take the plunge and be the first... and IF I ever want to sell the machine, and the buyer gives me crap about, then go away. don't buy my machine!

#98 5 months ago
Quoted from cosmokramer:

That sucks, I remember when I owned an original BK it would grab a ball that was an inch down the outlane and hauling ass, and pull it right back up...
How can they mess up on a tried and true system

It's Stern.

#99 5 months ago
Quoted from fxdwg:

someone send me a template from an original BK or BK2K, and Ill take the plunge and be the first... and IF I ever want to sell the machine, and the buyer gives me crap about, then go away. don't buy my machine!

sweet!

Ill change the thread title to try and find someone willing to make a template.

#100 5 months ago
Quoted from Dkjimbo:

Are you guys fearful it will reduce value of the machines? They already drop 500-800 the minute you open the box so why not drill the hole and make it more playable? I don't see the second hand market having a problem with a properly located magna save button...if anything its a desirable mod!

Well, I for one would NOT buy a game that had been hacked like this.

A reversible mod - sure.

But, the fun is trying to master the challenge of using it in the way it was designed.

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