AFMr coming at 8K would not surprise me. A bump up to $8500 on the following title would also not surprise me. A lot is going to depend on how MMr is recieved. If it plays great and has very few issues it will definately help sales of the next model. People will be buying a proven platform.

I can tell you that I will have very little incentive to buy AFMr at 8K though. If MMr performs great I'd jump on one in the 6-6.5K range though. At 8K or above I just don't see the value. JJP or stern would get my money at that point.

I really can't see them reducing price regardless of whether the next title is AFM, MB, or CC... From a Pinsider point of view, I get the big complaint. The value just isn't there when an original can be had for cheaper... But, from an average consumer, who knows little to nothing about pinball point of view, the $8k price may seem more reasonable.

First, you don't have to track down some shady guy who put an ad up on Craigslist to find the machine, you simply contact a distributor who will setup shipping to your front door. Second, you don't have to contact some tech who is going to fleece you anyway just for soldering a few wires, not to mention that he will probably offer you an exceptional deal of an extra $1k to install some LEDs. Third, we're talking about people who currently have zero machines, not 10-15, so they don't want to be dealing with a few tiny scratches in the cabinet art or a small chip in the playfield that can easily be covered with some Mylar. They want a shiny new machine in the game room for the kids to play without having to think about it.

So, the retired guy who wants to impress his grandkids or get a new toy for his lake house has two choices: 1) buy an original for $6k plus payout an extra $1-1.5k to some tech to fix it upand deal with the hassle of picking it up and waiting during the downtime or 2) pay $8k plus $500 shipping to have it delivered to his door in brand new condition. For the $500-$1000 difference we're talking about, I bet there are enough customers out their who are willing to go the latter route and call it a day. At the same time, these machines may not be for the diehard collectors who want an original and who have the skills/willingness to put in the work to make them perfect again.

What? You will be able to buy a nice one well taken care of right here on Pinside. Secondly why would he pay 8k when he can buy a Stern GOT pro for 4700 delivered in the box to his home.

If they did remake AFM ? Say it's $8,000 wouldn't that lower an original to like 5k ?or less. MM took a big hit maybe 50% ? I think all the big titles took a hit with the announcement of mmr.I personally buy pins to play ,collect,restore.I think having original pins as well as a remake are cool either way.The fact that alot of pins are being made,more used ones are on the market and guys can upgrade opening the door for the new pinball collectors
Unboxing a new MM is something a few years back seemed impossible for me.

If AFMr is $8000, ill be passing..

I doubt $8k for a pinball machine sounds remotely "reasonable" to the average consumer! Most people think we're nuts for paying $1,500 for one, let alone $8k.

Obviously not all of the MMRLE run sold to Pinsiders, but I'd bet that the vast majority of sales were to people that were a) already really into pinball and b) already owned at least one or two machines. I think that's the market for high-end or boutique machines. To the extent an "average consumer" is buying a NIB pin, seems more likely to me they'd end up with whatever the newest Stern Pro happens to be.

Rick has already spoken about remaking system 11 games. So some remakes will be priced differently.

An $8K price would only work only if PPS changes their focus to making games in small limited "boutique" runs and limit the number of AFMR's to 200 games or less vs. trying to make 500 or 1000 games. I would expect these games to have custom trim, plaques, shaker, etc. similar to what MMRLE has currently.

Using hypothetical numbers if they built 200 machines at a build cost of $5000 per machine and sold them for $8000 that would result in $600K profit.

If they built 500 machines at a build cost of $4500 per machine (build costs go down with quantity) and sold them for $6K that would result in $750K in profit.

I can't really see there being demand for >1000 AFM games unless the price was sub $5K. That's the only scenerio in which I would be interested in purchasing one. There's just too many other options to spend money on and spending more than $5K on an almost 20 year old game seems crazy to me.

I think MMR is the one game that could sell for a premium price in high quantity. I just don't see enough demand in other titles to warrant an $8K or even $7K price tag unless the quantity were severely limited.

Rick can charge whatever he wants. And we'll buy or not. Personally I wouldn't even pay $6.5k for a remake of AFM. The BOM isn't there. A Stern Pro has more stuff on the playfield. It's a fun game, great theme and sounds etc. But there's not a whole lot to it.

There's only one MM. That ship has sailed.

AFM is like a Vault Edition. Stern charged $4800 or so (street) for Iron Man VE. Old game, cheaper to do because they designed it already. It has as much or more stuff on it than AFM. If Rick can't do that model for it then I'm personally out as someone interested.

Cactus Canyon is only expensive because it's rare and the last game Williams did. Sell an "unlimited" amount and those two things vanish, so no way it's worth $8k. I don't care if you "finish" the code. We already know it won't be "Continued", so no point in calling it CCC when talking about it, that's not happening, epthegeek has said so.

Maybe people don't agree with me, but my take is if PPS/Whoever wants to keep building old games it's time to realize they're old games, they aren't made of gold, and it's time to price them like Stern, not Jpop.

Yes...i would REALLY like an AFM...but not for $8k

Dare I say it, but;

Maybe Rick needs to consider buying DP....

Bally

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinction_without_a_difference

This is my point. With Kiss or GOT at 4700 delivered I would go that route. Playing TWD last night made me realize how much the new tech matters. And for way less. AFM is pro at best.

?

I'd pay 6K to know I'm getting a great game with complete code over 4700 for something that I hope turns out good. I love stern pro's and I think they are a good value but how many of them have ever turned out to be as good as AFM? That's all subjective but I could only think of 3 that I could even consider close to AFM level.

Wouldn't you pay a little more for something that you know what it is? If you love AFM then you get that exact game. The stern pro may be good, it may take 2 years to be good, it may never be good.

Screw the price, here's the REAL AFMr question...

Will PPS produce proper JIGGLY martians for AFMr (and for us to buy for regular AFMs), or will the remakes be stuck with the crappy RFM stiff, non-jiggly martians??

Buy a used Stern pro with complete code for less. Like, 2K for a WPT

no, it is a difference. there were quite a few williams games after CC. His point was it was the last game made.

Very well stated

How come the jiggly ones aren't made anymore? Is it because the material broke too easily? I wonder if SuperBands could make jiggly ones out of their material...I think that they would be jigglier than the stiff ones, but more durable than the old ones.

A translucent green Martian would be rad!

Um, MB wasn't the same designer?

MM is practically a re-themed AFM with an extra ramp and a little more depth. I'm guessing you haven't played all 3 machines that much.

CC was the last WPC pinball machine made by Williams/Bally. The only other games released after CC were the two Pinball 2000 machines.

His point was absolutely correct, in that CC's collectability is impacted by its standing as Williams' last "normal" pinball machine.

If you want to keep this argument going, please also note that one of the Pinball 2000 machines has Williams branding and one has Bally/Midway branding.

They also thought their MMR emmulation was perfectuntil some outside scrutiny picked it apart otherwise... Castle Coils... screen rendering... cabinet art.. etc etc

Part of that 15-25% lessons learned should be the community learning that don't let your eagerness shut your brain off.

Trust me, I agree with you. It's an interesting discussion to me. I just don't see a company doing this so I hope like hell I'm wrong as it will make things more realistic for me to buy more remakes in the future.

MMR is completely out of my spending range, but I'm handling this as a once in a lifetime experience. It may or may not be worth it, but I never gambled before. Guess everyone should at least once in their lifetime. YOLOLOL

One can easily say the three games feel much the same. They all follow AFM's successful FORMULA

Humor
Fan Layout
Simple - shoot it 3 times to light it.. rules
Clear bash toy

AFM was the first of theformula which the next couple games all pretty much fell in line with. The common traits make those features (which aren't necessarily new) jump out as common dna in that run of games.

_{Post edited by flynnibus: add}

Any update on MMr production?

I really don't see that many available and the ones that are nicely taken care of tend to ask for $8k+ so at that point it's a nicely taken care of old one, with a lot more risk from the perspective of someone who knows little about pinball, or a new one for about the same price that comes with a warranty. I agree that a Stern Pro would be a better deal but that won't get them a "top 10" pin, even if it's GOT.

Ok, I might have been a bit quick with the "average" part of it but I don't think it'd be that hard to find 1000-2000 willing to spend $8k on a toy. To some people that number is astronomical and to others its pocket change. I agree that a lot of MMRLE customers are pinsiders and that PPS/CGC hasn't reached the general public with their product, but if they can, I don't think it would be hard for them to sell these products at that price point. Let's face it, JJP demonstrated they could sell an untested product in WOZLE at almost a $10k price point to people who never considered owning a pinball machine before. If PPS/CGC can reach a similar consumer base with something heralded as a long running "Top 10" pin at an $8k price point, I'm sure they will get a lot of bites.

I just don't think we are going to see them drop prices and if they market their product appropriately I don't think they'll have to. Bottom line, to someone who has a lot of change to throw around, knows little about pinball, these are highly rated machines that don't have the risk that comes with buying "something old".

Haha, same here. I might buy one NIB in my life, but it's going to have to be really special. It won't be AFM, unless the price is like $1k.

lol...not on this thread, this is for bickering and in-fighting apparently

No it's not

Hehehe

Oh I didn't realize playfields by different designers couldn't be similar.

I'm guessing you've never played Flash and Skateball.

I'm also guessing you've never played AFM, MM and MB. The shots and general feel/concept are very similar.

Question: If a USED MM player condition is going for 7-9k, why is there any question over the value of a brand spanking new MMr for 8k? I haven't followed this very closely but that seems to be a no brainer. What am I missing here? Are people assuming a USED MM is going to drop below 7 or 6k or less? Because there would have to some generous distance between a USED decades old game and brand NEW electronics for "only" a grand or so more....

I want the next post on this thread to be a photo of production, tired of checking and reading HOGWASH! This is for updates, we shooting for May delivery?

If they were exact copies you would be correct. They are not, all new board system and OS running emulated original code. And this will be the first game for the new system, designed by a company that has only one other pinball machine to their design credit. They may have hit the ball out of the park with their first commercial pinball attempt, to early to tell just yet.

What is worst case scenario? Terrible play due to the new system? I am fairly clueless with respect to this(and lots of things).

Whoah there. You cant just come in here making sense and all that.

They're in production right now, so if all goes well with QA and there aren't any other unexpected snags - I'd expect them to start shipping in February.

yeah... far too serious

The differences have been discussed on these forums pretty extensively but it boils down to one system having 20+ years of usage versus the newer system that hasn't been delivered to any end customers yet (but soon will be). It's the difference between tried and true versus new and unknown.

Don't look into things too much. He asked how MB wasn't similar to AFM and MM. I told him different designer which is true.

At least somebody got my joke... (probably a lot more did too)

Kind of like my new Sterns which are super clean and no hassles.

Got it. Thanks. Like I said, haven't followed that closely and the 80 page thread is a little much to sift through.

So, wait for some to get delivered to end users and read the reviews...then decide on purchase(they are making the Non-LE based on demand correct? No set production limit yet?).

You asked what's different and I gave you one example of many. I'm sorry I didn't give you the answer you wanted. And if you had an answer why ask the question? MM and AFM ruleset are too similar for me to buy them back to back. I don't know why you would question me on this? If your opinion is different than mine that's great, no reason for us to argue over it.

I would bet that the majority in on MMR would buy MBR before AFMR. You also have Universal Monster collector's who aren't pinheads who would buy that machine as well. MBR will outsell AFMR, I have no doubt about that. I'm not even a fan of MB and I never said I hope MB is next. I simply said it IS next.

It's been tested at multiple shows & at a barcade in Chicago. Sounds like it's surviving the field just fine.

Off subject (like 99% of the posts in here). Someone commented that you can get a new Star Trek and Metallica for the same price as MMR. Is this true? I'm clueless on Stern so I am interested to know.

ST Pro and MET pro about 4600 x 2 delivered. less picked up.
MMr 8k
Not exactly but real close.

Will these be boxed in Stern boxes? Does anyone know how the packaging is going to be dealt with? Great that they're coming soon off the line., but how will it be pact and sent? thx