Williams MOVED fliptronics to the power driver board in 1995; they did not CHANGE it. Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of games built and shipped with fliptronics from 1990-1995. Some of the best pins ever belogn in that era. Fliptronics is the best flipper system ever designed, period. Yes, the playfield hardware is the same, but the drive electronics are not. Not even close. Maybe they will be as good as fliptronics, maybe not. I'm not willing to take the chance. When the game was announced, it was to be a 1 replica. What it became is not that, hence we bailed. What is wrong with that?

Look at this below. Dedicated power supply. Triple-staged drive: predrive transistor, TWO tip-102s and one tip-36c *per flipper*. "Designed and engineered by the number one pinball people in the world!" But not on MMR.

fliptr02.jpg

Here's the same fliptronic circuitry on the WPC95 board found in Medieval Madness original. Same triple drive, same circuitry.. just the bridge in its power supply was replaced by a pair of diodes in the upper right with the rest of the power supply diodes (they dumped all bridges in favor of discrete diodes).

If fliptronics was so unnecessary, why did they *specifically* bring it forward, completely intact, when they cost-reduced the WPC boardset back in 1995?

wpc95pwr.png

Well I suppose the first thing is when it was announced and pictures shown at the same time, you could see it wasn't a 1 replica. Small board in the head and three boards under the playfield for switches, lights, and coils.

Not to mention two coats of clear instead of one, decals instead of screen print, corrected art work. Stereo, shaker motor.

Why did you put a deposit down on it then ? This was all revealed at Expo last year when Rick announced it. It hasn't became anything different from what was announced has it ?

Gotta side with you on this. When I bought WOZ I was under the impression that it would flip the same as Bally/Williams fliptronics because Jack emphasized that point, only better because of the adjustable flipper strength. But this was not the case. WOZ flippers not the same. We'll see how close MMr can get the feel down. Or do they even want to? For the record, I think current Stern flippers are the best.
Edit:Fliptronics a close second.

That was NOT the announcement at all.

They were showing off that tiny Beagleboard, not some 25 year old circuits.

This

.image-197.jpg

"I've never had so many balls in my face in one day!"

The small board in the head was irrelevant.. as long as its emulation is spot-on, it's fine... all it does is produce signals. If the timing and frequency of the signals match what the original 6809+ASIC would generate, we're golden, and I'm confident they will get that part right. The actual drive electronics underneath the game were not shown in detail til much later, and that's where the important parts are.

Stuff like two coats of clear and the better sound reproduction (not stereo) were reasons we signed up in the first place. Neither of those affect the game, they just make it look and sound better, just like the gold trim we were originally promised (and later changed to mustard yellow). Flippers are *the* most important part of any pinball and I don't want a cheapened version. It might be just as good; we will see when they ship! Games at a show get beat and the power often sucks so I won't judge based on that and really won't know til one is in a home or business to try.

That's fair.

You have a lot of play on AFM and MM, so it will be interesting to see what you think.

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I agree with both of you as well. Wish I could remember who and in what thread someone was giving me big time crap for thinking the current Stern flippers are better than the B/W flippers from the 90's.

I love my Stern games but still like the feel of the 90's B/W flippers the best....I won't pretend to understand the tech behind it, but there's just an 'insta-snap' to them that feels unique.

Ha!

That was easy. Thanks to Glarrownage's thumbs down, pretty sure it was him!

I like the creativity of the Williams pins but the game play and flippers on Sterns kick their ass !

Nah, wasn't me. I just didn't know what you being "right" about an opinion on another thread had anything to do with MMr production updates.

Are you kidding me? This entire thread has nothing to do with MMR production dates
The title should be changed to "pinside general gossip"

If the OP hasn't given up entirely on this thread after the first page that would be a suggestion I fully support!

The market isn't flooded until all machines are delivered and further demand for the machines (standard and remaining LEs) are met. Once Rick can't sell any additional "standards" you could probably call the market "flooded." Since you can't possibly know future demand, I suggest you're wrong.

Pot and kettle Larry.

That's a matter of opinion. Personally I like Stern's modern flippers more than WMS fliptronics. That doesn't mean Stern is better, that's my opinion, not a fact.

Like I said, pot... kettle...

You aren't the only one that doesn't understand.

Not only is it pinball, but MMR is the first in a planned series of remakes of some of the most popular games in the last 20 years. The games have instant recognition. Potential buyers aren't concerned about how complete the code is, what the game is going to look like or how it should play.

But the underlying electronics are an all new platform that we don't know much about other than some anecdotal comments and a few pictures. That platform - the name of which we still don't know - is absolutely key since that is critical to the success of MMR and any future PPS licensed remakes and lots of people have interest in potential remakes other than MMR.

We know very little about the relationship between Chicago Gaming and PPS and who is responsible for what. First we thought this was a PPS project - that they controlled the process, spec'ed the boards and subbed remaining dev/production to CG. Then, around the time of coinmechgate, we hear that PPS really isn't in charge and that they just are a licensee to CG. This doesn't make a lot of sense if you look at the history of CG. It makes much more sense that PPS owns the process and would control what titles come next. That any one wants to understand the process apparently baffles Rick and he has done whatever he could to avoid the discussion, including putting people who ask questions on ignore so he doesn't have to see them.

We know far more about how Stern, JJP, Spooky, Heighweigh and even JPOP run things and how their processes work (even if we don't like/agree with them) than we know about PPS/CG/MMR.

There are hundreds of people with an MMR order in. There are hundreds more that are interested in other titles. Millions of dollars are committed on hopes and prayers that MMR will be a success (and it appears it will be) that will lead to others. Every one of those people have their own concerns and questions and expectations about how the new PPS remake process is going to work and what it's going to bring.

People who like pinball want to talk about the latest and "greatest." People who didn't order it but want to discuss it is cool IMO. Of course that comes with people who will bag it for sport or whatever.

The dumbest thing said on a regular basis here at Pinside: "Why do you care if you didn't order one?"

Or if they already own the original

Agreed, how would people get 15+ million karma points for trolling otherwise?

Hopefully at least one decent circuit can be found to plug these games into. No better place to stress test them publically than Pinball Expo with a line of fans playing it constantly. Personally I believe they have been working in the past months to refine their system and the games are going to do great there.

You don't get it. The games are sold (the ones that are still sold, that is). Money and space has been allocated for them and the effect on the market has already occurred. With shipping supposedly imminent, whether or not games are actually delivered is somewhat irrelevant.

Of course it's opinion. Anything that can't be measured or quantified as fact is instead opinion. I can understand the love for modern stern flips, they are pretty snappy and provide decent control, but the power fade from cold to hot is too great (fans help), and overall I just prefer the feel of WMS.

In the future, if I toss out a claim that cannot be proven/disproven as fact, please append "IMHO" to the beginning... most people get it, but I guess I need to spell it out for you.

if people are paying $8k for a pinball machine (original OR remake) i think that's proof right there the market's not saturated yet.

He's also been here three years. Don't worry grasshopper, you will get there one day.

We were hoping to sell the original and keep the new one Too many question marks to stay on preorder, so will just wait and see. At this point I'm actually more interested in CC with a CCC package, so interested to see how the MMrs perform.

Very interested in this as well!

I don't know... seems that the 8k price point has become pretty much standard fare for most newly released "top of the line", "LE", or whatever label is put on it. Sure seems that pin buyers, at least around here, are quick to jump on the chance to buy a hot title... (any TWD LEs unsold?)

What will be interesting to watch is what the price point is going to be on the resale of the Medieval Madness remakes in a year or so after release. So many factors going into play there, a good number of which are yet to be seen.

The MMR update news heard from the York show (via distributors) confirmed the UL certification testing as per the PPS MMR blog (no surprise). Word was that testing will be completed sometime in November, clearing the way for full production, which would commence soon afterwards (also estimated to be November). No shipping date was being mentioned however.

Also, many pre-production units have been produced with no reported electrical issues.

I'm sure there will be more MMR updates/rumors at the Expo in Chicago next week.

Nothing

I was originally going to put MMR next to my MM, but then realized that was kind of silly, since my MM has <2000 plays on it, so it is still pretty new for a 17 year old game and it wasn't worth the space for the novelty of having both. Then I thought I would sell my game and have MMR but with the market valuing original MMs under $10k, I decided it probably made more sense just to keep the original.

As for a CCr with CCC, I'd preorder one tomorrow if I could see it within a year.

Who would have thought a year ago that there was even a possibility that THLE would ship before MMR? Not me.

dang it...
now i want to go compare original MM flippers with the MMR flippers just to see what's up.
i can say, when i played MMR in person, several times, it played like an absolute dream.

No doubt about it ! The W/B games are so flat and weak compared to modern flipper coils ! Double wound is a down grade !

Yeah, my point was; just because you can, doesn't mean you should. I don't understand the need to dump all over something (that isn't even out yet in this case) just because you can. I'm also not just talking about MMr, it seems to happen a lot else where on Pinside but trolls will be trolls I suppose.

+1 , some people like to sh*t in the playground .

I totally agree. I also want to point out that no one is saying people should not speak. Although, it has been stated that some should go somewhere else on the forums and speak all they wish. Just label the thread properly as per forum rules. Something like "MMr Hate Hype thread" or "ACDC is a terrible game thread" or whatever the trolls want to pick as topics is fine. Who am I to name their threads. They are free to talk as much as they want obviously, just preferably in the appropriate thread.

Sounds good.

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First off, the big general information thread was closed months ago when Rick himself begged the moderators to close it. There is an official MMr discussion thread which has an extended set of rules that everyone must agree to, essentially disallowing anything that would fall out of the category of cheerleader or fanboy speak to occur. There are MMr discussion forums on Rick's web site but clearly nothing but the aforementioned fanboy speak is going to be allowed there.

If you really read what folks are saying in this thread what is being labeled as "negative" or "hate" is simply folks that are seeking proof of what has been said about this new product. If not blindly believing everything a salesperson tells us about his upcoming product really makes us trolls then so be it but I think there have been some good revelations in this thread about this new game. Most recently that we have finally hashed out that it won't use Fliptronics to drive the flippers, but in fact we don't know yet if the new system will be better or worse than the old. This should be important information that everyone should be aware of, anyone wanting to squelch such knowledge would seem to be the true trolls in this debate.

Well said.

At what point did modern flippers get better (I like
Specifics). I know everyone bitched about stern forever (noise, weak flipper, feel). I just want to know when that product changed. I have many NIB sterns and I prefer Williams feel.

It just seems like a lot of smokescreen attempting to undermine a product or future products.

Once a new pin gets out in the wild it will be possible to judge but until the I smell Bullsh@t.

I am a fully paid customer of a MMRLE. Correct me if I'm mistaken. Woz took a while to get to market and when the first ones finally came off the line there was an issue with some boards that had to be replaced. I'd rather wait a little longer and insure that I have the best and most tested machine before it shows up on my doorstep. I honestly believe that is all Rick and others are trying to achieve this.
There is no hidden agenda. They know as we all know if this project turns out to be a tremendous success (which I believe it will) other great titles will follow. The Pinball community will most likely gain more fans such as myself and Pinball will become all the more recognized.
I myself am very new to Pinball and just enjoy playing the game. Heck when I bought my first game I thought that would be it. But as you all know it is a very addicting hobby and that is why I'm now waiting patiently for my next title and I'm sure I've got one more after that.
Just sit back relax and the MMRLE will be out there for those that want to enjoy it and those that want to critique it.
I'll be going now to play some Pinball. Have a great day everyone! Party on!

Bringing to light facts that people should know about a product is great for consumer awareness. My comments were not at all directed at people asking the hard questions. But there are also people that will dump all over something for personal reasons (not fact) or just to get a rise out of others. That is the essence of a troll. By no means am I saying you need to come on these forums to crap butterflys, piss rainbows, and have a hippie dippy love fest.