(Topic ID: 332379)

Any saving this Squak and Talk Board?

By Dan_Halen

1 year ago


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  • 18 posts
  • 5 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 1 year ago by Dan_Halen
  • Topic is favorited by 1 Pinsider

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#1 1 year ago

I recapped my Squak and Talk board with the Big Daddy kit and it worked great for about a week. I had it on pretty consistently in that time as I was doing an LED swap and had it in light test mode.

I turned it on today and was continuing to dismantle the topside to swap plastics and clean the playfield, then went upstairs and started smelling burnt electronics and horrible noises. Came down to find this was the issue:

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#2 1 year ago

Yes, that can be fixed up, if that's what you're asking.

#3 1 year ago
Quoted from sparky672:

Yes, that can be fixed up, if that's what you're asking.

Sweet lord. Do I just resolder it? I can’t imagine that’s all I need to do. The cap seems fine, but I’m gonna test when I can. Not sure my DMM has that function though.

#4 1 year ago
Quoted from Dan_Halen:

Sweet lord. Do I just resolder it? I can’t imagine that’s all I need to do.

If it were mine, I would remove the cap and clean all carbon from the board using a fiberglass scratch brush before putting anything back. Even if capacitor tests fine, maybe not reuse it... it was subjected to an unknown amount of heat, which by its rating, lifespan is inversely proportional to operating temp.

Unknown (resized).jpegUnknown (resized).jpeg

If you decide to reuse it, make sure its lead is thoroughly clean and takes solder. It certainly appears as if the original solder failed to bond to the capacitor lead, which caused a ton of arcing at this pad location. That alone may be a good enough reason to use a new cap.

Was it possible that you left this capacitor lead too long and just barely touching the trace above causing a short here?

Pinside_forum_7442392_1 (resized).jpgPinside_forum_7442392_1 (resized).jpg

Once carbon starts forming, it's just conductive enough to cause the problem to continue and get worse even after the original metal short melted away.

---------

If board traces are broken or lifted from the board, there are kits you can buy for epoxying the copper foil back down. Super glue does not work because any heat from soldering will cause it to release. I think I purchased some copper tracing foil from Marco last year. Otherwise, you can jump over broken traces by soldering solid copper wire across any gap. Yours does not look that bad, and may just clean up fine.

If the circular pad is missing or damaged, you can leave the capacitor lead extra long and bend it down along the good part of the trace; just solder it down flat.

Don't leave any copper traces exposed as shiny bare copper... either tin them with solder or paint them over with PCB mask.

Quoted from Dan_Halen:

The cap seems fine, but I’m gonna test when I can. Not sure my DMM has that function though.

You can use resistance mode on any kind of meter.

https://electrouniversity.com/how-to-test-a-capacitor-with-a-multimeter/

#5 1 year ago

You probably weakened the traces when you replaced the caps and now the traces have failed. You can solder in some jumper wires to mimic/bypass the board traces. Just make sure you connect to the right places. I would try to find a pic of a good board that clearly shows the circuit.

#6 1 year ago

Unless you put that cap in backwards, replacing the cap might not do it. what caused the failure? Thats the -5v circuit and sometimes the regulator or the diodes fail and short the circuit.

#7 1 year ago

It just so happens that I finished the exact same cap-job a couple of days ago. So I took this picture of the back. IMG_3305 (resized).jpegIMG_3305 (resized).jpeg Looks like these are three separate traces. Maybe you shorted two?

#8 1 year ago
Quoted from blackknightfan:

It just so happens that I finished the exact same cap-job a couple of days ago. So I took this picture of the back. [quoted image] Looks like these are three separate traces. Maybe you shorted two?

I'm thinking that must be the case, but I would think it would've shorted right away. I'm certain it has to do with my work somehow, I'm pretty new to soldering PCBs, but it worked for days before happing, which is what's confusing me the most.

Thank you for the picture, I'll use it as a reference and hopefully I can fix this. I'm not opposed to buying a new board, I'd just rather not

#9 1 year ago
Quoted from jj44114:

Unless you put that cap in backwards, replacing the cap might not do it. what caused the failure? Thats the -5v circuit and sometimes the regulator or the diodes fail and short the circuit.

I'm pretty sure I had the polarity correct, I checked for that several times with each cap in the kit, then did a final check again.

I don't know what else could have caused it other than my solder work, it's pretty close to other traces, so I'm assuming that's what I did.

#10 1 year ago

You can fix it, @blacknightfan gave you the circuit. Just repair the circuit and use a multimeter to test for shorts if anything looks like it could be bridged.

#11 1 year ago
Quoted from Dan_Halen:

Thank you for the picture, I'll use it as a reference and hopefully I can fix this. I'm not opposed to buying a new board, I'd just rather not

Where's the fun in buying a new board? I only have my CPU board left to fix https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/bally-6803-cpu-stops-booting-after-changing-the-battery

#12 1 year ago
Quoted from Dan_Halen:

but I would think it would've shorted right away. I'm certain it has to do with my work somehow, I'm pretty new to soldering PCBs, but it worked for days before happing, which is what's confusing me the most.

• Bad solder joint at the pad. It works until it doesn't. When it doesn't, you would get arcing and burning. The carbon is partially conductive so it contributes to the problem. Based on the photo, showing how the most intense burning was around the capacitor lead, I think this was it.

• Shorted to something nearby. The lead was left really close to another trace and eventually shorts out causing arcing and burning.

• Debris on left on the board was partially conductive or contained a contaminant that started a short that eventually causes arcing and burning.

That carbon is easy enough to remove... based on your photos, you don't need a new board. Also be sure to clean away all of your flux with alcohol after you complete any repairs.

#13 1 year ago
Quoted from sparky672:

That carbon is easy enough to remove... based on your photos, you don't need a new board. Also be sure to clean away all of your flux with alcohol after you complete any repairs.

I didn't do that after my own cap job. Is that partially conductive too?

#14 1 year ago
Quoted from blackknightfan:

I didn't do that after my own cap job. Is that partially conductive too?

Flux for electronics is generally not, but if it remains sticky, would attract dirt, solder balls*, etc. I like to clean it off, and if you're going to apply a protective solder masking, then you would have to clean it off. Removing the flux also ensures you won't leave general debris, solder balls, wire strands, etc. behind.

However, some flux is acidic and some containing solder/metal powders is conductive, so removing it would be a good "play-it-safe" habit in every case. Again, these types of fluxes are not typical since electronic flux is safe, not conductive, and non-acidic.

*Solder balls is a thing and can be a real problem. Molten solder falls and when it hits a surface, it splashes into a million tiny balls... it's like mercury. I've seen failures when examined under magnification, a tiny solder ball is stuck to something shorting out two traces. This is usually more of an issue on boards with tiny components and microprocessor legs so close together your eyes bleed when you try to focus.

#15 1 year ago
Quoted from sparky672:

Flux for electronics is generally not, but if it remains sticky, would attract dirt, solder balls*, etc. I like to clean it off, and if you're going to apply a protective solder masking, then you would have to clean it off. Removing the flux also ensures you won't leave general debris, solder balls, wire strands, etc. behind.
However, some flux is acidic and some containing solder/metal powders is conductive, so removing it would be a good "play-it-safe" habit in every case. Again, these types of fluxes are not typical since electronic flux is safe, not conductive, and non-acidic.
*Solder balls is a thing and can be a real problem. Molten solder falls and when it hits a surface, it splashes into a million tiny balls... it's like mercury. I've seen failures when examined under magnification, a tiny solder ball is stuck to something shorting out two traces. This is usually more of an issue on boards with tiny components and microprocessor legs so close together your eyes bleed when you try to focus.

Thank you for the information, it’s definitely a lesson learned. I’m going down a rabbit hole of trying to make this 40 year old game work properly, and it’s one thing after another!

I’m going to get the scratch pen and a new capacitor this week, and will hopefully get it back on track.

I’d read to clean flux with denatured alcohol, and that is nasty stuff. Can I just use 99% isopropyl? I’ve a whole mess of that and it’s not nearly as offensive of an odor.

Thanks again for everything, you’ve been a huge help.

#16 1 year ago
Quoted from Dan_Halen:

I’d read to clean flux with denatured alcohol, and that is nasty stuff. Can I just use 99% isopropyl?

I really like denatured alcohol because it's strong and dries quickly. However, you can use 70%, 91%, or 99% isopropyl as well. It just takes longer to dry. All of my Gottlieb work last summer, I just used 91% iso with a soft toothbrush. I got it in a bottle from the drug store with the plastic flip cap... so I could just squirt it out as needed.

#17 1 year ago
Quoted from Dan_Halen:

I’m going to get the scratch pen and a new capacitor this week, and will hopefully get it back on track.

Don't freak out when you have a divot or crater in your PCB after cleaning out all of the carbon. It's best to remove every last bit of carbon since it can cause these issues to come back. It's cosmetic; the PCB is only there as a physical structure to hold the conductors and components. As long as your components are secure and the proper electrical connections are solid and intact, you will be good.

#18 1 year ago
Quoted from sparky672:

I really like denatured alcohol because it's strong and dries quickly. However, you can use 70%, 91%, or 99% isopropyl as well. It just takes longer to dry. All of my Gottlieb work last summer, I just used 91% iso with a soft toothbrush. I got it in a bottle from the drug store with the plastic flip cap... so I could just squirt it out as needed.

I have that same exact bottle! Just filled it with 99% since the hardware store only had that, and in 1 gallon bottles.

Thanks again for everything. I'm not surprised I did this as I'm pretty new to this portion of pin repair, but I'm definitely going to learn a lot from this ordeal.

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