(Topic ID: 24527)

Any Linux Users/Developers Curious About JJP's System?

By Crash

11 years ago


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    There are 114 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.
    #1 11 years ago

    Before I say anything I want to make myself clear that I do NOT support hacking into a company's embedded system to expose hidden modes, soundtracks, animations, etc. I, like many other tinkerers, do believe in exploring something just for the sake of doing it, even if you have a benign goal, such as listening to custom music while you play.

    So, anyone getting Wizard of Oz willing to try getting in to the system? I'm going to give this thread a try. I don't want technical details of how to exploit a Linux weakness and gain root access, just curious to know if there is any interest. Don't want this topic to go south.

    #2 11 years ago

    When Im done you won't be able to get to the code.

    Protecting IP is what fortune 5 companies pay me to do

    Yes it's running Linux but thats the OS. You can try to intercept the boot but make 1 change to any system file or woz game file and the machine will no longer boot purposely. Until it is reflashed back to factory.

    #3 11 years ago

    I thought I read somewhere that it would be open source. I guess that's not true.

    #4 11 years ago

    Darn you, hash checks!

    #5 11 years ago

    Correct. Hash and 2048 (maybe 4096) bit encryption of various other parts

    #6 11 years ago

    If you guys keep on top of the updates there won't be any need for "home use only" versions.

    #7 11 years ago
    Quoted from pdman:

    I thought I read somewhere that it would be open source. I guess that's not true.

    Jack wanted to do that in the beginning but had to change his mind fast for several reasons. Licensing of WOZ was the big one.

    #8 11 years ago

    Yeah, good point. Don't want to see this during the attract mode at Chuck E. Cheese:

    #9 11 years ago
    Quoted from Pinchroma:

    When Im done you won't be able to get to the code.

    do I get a free WoZ if I do?

    #10 11 years ago
    Quoted from Pinchroma:

    When Im done you won't be able to get to the code.

    So this is why WOZ has been delayed, Alex isn't done with his work!

    #11 11 years ago

    This is probably a dumb question, but what exactly is the point of all the super encryption? There's no encryption on any of the older games (not sure about SAM though, I think there's some there to prevent LE code on a non-LE game), I guess I'm not sure why spend the extra money and effort to do it. I'm not sure what it buys you in the case of a pinball machine...xbox game yes where it's all software but the software in a pinball machine is basically useless without the game.

    #12 11 years ago

    Cheating online is one example. Oh wait, you can just take the glass off to do that.

    #14 11 years ago
    Quoted from Pinchroma:

    When Im done you won't be able to get to the code.

    Sounds like a challenge... ;D

    #15 11 years ago

    Couldn't you still take the HD out, and connect it to another PC running any version of Linux then connect to the WOZ system? It might not run, boot, etc... but you could still possible hear the sound bites, view different animations, etc...

    Kinda OT, I had a NFSU arcade, and I loved it. I was scared of the hard drive failing and/or the backup discs failing. I used the backup disc on 2nd harddrive and was content that my CD was good, and I now had a Backup HD, just in case. 1 thing that I REALLY wanted to do was to upgrade the whole MB, so I could use better RAM, GPU, etc... The system was pretty f'n locked down. GRRR

    That thing had about a 10 min boot time. I'm sure WOZ won't have long boot times, but it would be nice to know that the software ISN'T going to be hardware specific. Nobody wants to think that in 15 years, when something fails that you won't be able to buy any hardware for it = THINK PB2K ala NuCore

    #16 11 years ago
    Quoted from Pinchroma:

    Yes it's running Linux but thats the OS. You can try to intercept the boot but make 1 change to any system file or woz game file and the machine will no longer boot purposely. Until it is reflashed back to factory.

    Wow this is disappointing. This has going from open source to 180 the other direction.
    Even cell phone companies don’t do this. I am so glad other pinball companies are not doing this.

    #17 11 years ago

    Why was my post removed.

    #18 11 years ago

    boogies first of all the system doesn't use a hard drive. It uses surface mounted flash memory. And even if you could perform a physical image of the chip, it's a proprietary file system. Even if you could crack the file system, you end up with encrypted files. Even if you could crack the encryption, the binary executable modules are unique to that specific CPU being used, and you don't have the source code to compile it to run on anything else.

    Now... you were saying?

    #19 11 years ago

    Every pinball company does this? I'm not sure you guys understand the reasonings behind IP management. It has nothing to do with locking out the community and everything with protecting the "secret sauce" And yes every cell company does it as well. Apple does not want people Jailbreaking their phones. It's just the hackers always find ways around it regardless of what apple does. Nothing is foolproof.

    While the game is shipping and still under support having people hacking around in the game is not a good thing. Someone could release an unofficial "Mod" that subsequently does bad things to the machine. Remember the game will have internet capabilities so it's quite possible to turn your Pinball machine into a Botnet or a spam relay. You guys think of it as preventing modding, its not, its protecting the integrity of the underlying machine. This isn't an eprom based game. Apples and Oranges.

    #20 11 years ago
    Quoted from Crash:

    boogies first of all the system doesn't use a hard drive. It uses surface mounted flash memory. And even if you could perform a physical image of the chip, it's a proprietary file system. Even if you could crack the file system, you end up with encrypted files. Even if you could crack the encryption, the binary executable modules are unique to that specific CPU being used, and you don't have the source code to compile it to run on anything else.
    Now... you were saying?

    You are wrong on your spec's of how the machine is designed. (Not surface mounted flash and certainly not a custom CPU). It is using standard off the shelf PC parts And you don't need source code either to do bad things. Source code certainly makes it easier. The game is linux based. It can be offloaded to any other machine running the same kernel with the same architecture.

    Now... you were saying?

    #21 11 years ago

    I was assuming the system wasn't PC-based, since Jack said the system was built from scratch. I expected it to look somewhat like Stern's SAM boardset. Since I was assuming an uncommon CPU was being used that's why I mentioned source code. You would need that to build the executable(s) for another CPU, of course. I've messed with assembly a little bit on a couple of PS2/Wii games and Gameshark. Not interested in learning more though.

    Can you tell me this: does the box use a standard VGA connector going to the LCD? I would like to try a direct video capture of the LCD stream when I make my gameplay video.

    #22 11 years ago

    Yes it does. Its a standard wells gardner LCD that is vga. (May be DVI i'm not sure i actually havent seen the connectors). This is all stuff Jack has stated. No new news here

    #23 11 years ago

    Reason I asked is because ColorDMD appears to be using a commercial ribbon cable or something that's not the standard 15 pin connector. The display panel doesn't support DVI.

    #24 11 years ago

    Ugh...

    Yeah... PC-in-a-Pin is the absolute last thing I ever wanted to see. Pinball PCB's are pretty dang durable all things considered. Modern PC parts are a freaking joke by comparison. Not to mention the power pull of PC's versus DMD pins etc...

    Hoping it's a very small, no-fan-needed, contained type of system, but that's probably a pipe dream....

    #25 11 years ago
    Quoted from Pinchroma:

    Every pinball company does this? I'm not sure you guys understand the reasonings behind IP management. It has nothing to do with locking out the community and everything with protecting the "secret sauce" And yes every cell company does it as well. Apple does not want people Jailbreaking their phones. It's just the hackers always find ways around it regardless of what apple does. Nothing is foolproof.
    While the game is shipping and still under support having people hacking around in the game is not a good thing. Someone could release an unofficial "Mod" that subsequently does bad things to the machine. Remember the game will have internet capabilities so it's quite possible to turn your Pinball machine into a Botnet or a spam relay. You guys think of it as preventing modding, its not, its protecting the integrity of the underlying machine. This isn't an eprom based game. Apples and Oranges.

    I didn't realize that it had wifi (when was that confirmed?), if it has wifi then encryption makes sense. Protecting yourself from lawsuits? Maybe. Frankly I don't think anyone cares enough to do anything, we've had digital pinball games for like 30 years now and how many completely rewritten roms are there for games out there...like zero? Minor mods for scoring and rules, but that's about it.

    The more likely scenario is that longer term it will add a burden to maintaining the system for everyone (JJP, operators, distributors, owners). As parts fail and go obsolete, I could see lots of issues.

    #26 11 years ago

    I know if it was mine I would protect it. If I wanted to save a lot of time and money I could copy and update. it would save a lot of time getting a new pin going. The net ability would be a big concern though. I am glad it is using off the shelf parts, cheaper and able to find, as long as it is not like the pin2k stuff like mentioned earlier.

    #27 11 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    Ugh...
    Yeah... PC-in-a-Pin is the absolute last thing I ever wanted to see. Pinball PCB's are pretty dang durable all things considered. Modern PC parts are a freaking joke by comparison. Not to mention the power pull of PC's versus DMD pins etc...
    Hoping it's a very small, no-fan-needed, contained type of system, but that's probably a pipe dream....

    The power pull on this is next to nothing. You are thinking about the biggest power drain which is the harddrive and the fans.

    Neither are needed. There are no moving PC parts on this game.

    #28 11 years ago
    Quoted from Pinchroma:

    Neither are needed. There are no moving PC parts on this game.

    Good enough for me.

    #29 11 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    Ugh...
    Yeah... PC-in-a-Pin is the absolute last thing I ever wanted to see. Pinball PCB's are pretty dang durable all things considered. Modern PC parts are a freaking joke by comparison. Not to mention the power pull of PC's versus DMD pins etc...
    Hoping it's a very small, no-fan-needed, contained type of system, but that's probably a pipe dream....

    It's not "pc in a pin" like Pinball 2000, technology has moved forward a little bit! Considering that the average smartphone is more powerful than PCs from 6 years ago, I think you have absolutely nothing to worry about.

    My guess is the thing could easily run from the guts of a smartphone, a Raspberry PI, a custom Arduino solution or 1/2 a dozen other similar technologies.

    #30 11 years ago

    Does that mean its using a SSD for a HD? If so, thats awesome

    #31 11 years ago
    Quoted from boogies:

    Does that mean its using a SSD for a HD? If so, thats awesome

    It's using SSD's Glen.

    #32 11 years ago
    Quoted from fattrain:

    It's using SSD's Glen.

    +1 SSD

    Quoted from Zaxxis:It's not "pc in a pin" like Pinball 2000, technology has moved forward a little bit! Considering that the average smartphone is more powerful than PCs from 6 years ago, I think you have absolutely nothing to worry about.
    My guess is the thing could easily run from the guts of a smartphone, a Raspberry PI, a custom Arduino solution or 1/2 a dozen other similar technologies.

    Raspberry pi could no doubt run the game logic but couldn't drive the graphics I use mine as a voip server.

    #33 11 years ago
    Quoted from Crash:

    Reason I asked is because ColorDMD appears to be using a commercial ribbon cable or something that's not the standard 15 pin connector. The display panel doesn't support DVI

    ColorDMD is simply intercepting the data being sent to the dmd (animation sequence no., frame no., and row/column information and then using their software to change the color of the given row/column based on a translation table

    #34 11 years ago

    Right, but I'm talking about the blue ribbon cable that interfaces with the display panel, which should be VGA. Going by the pictures it certainly doesn't look like a standard cable.

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    #35 11 years ago

    Pretty sure it's plain Jane VGA but I can't say for sure

    #36 11 years ago
    Quoted from Pinchroma:

    The power pull on this is next to nothing. You are thinking about the biggest power drain which is the harddrive and the fans.

    Usually the CPU is the biggest draw by far.

    A modern SATA drive might draw 6-14 watts.

    A large 120mm fan draws 3 watts

    But a modern lower end CPU like an Intel i3 draws 65 watts!!!!

    #37 11 years ago
    Quoted from vid1900:

    Usually the CPU is the biggest draw by far.
    A modern SATA drive might draw 6-14 watts.
    A large 120mm fan draws 3 watts
    But a modern lower end CPU like an Intel i3 draws 65 watts!!!!

    Pretty sure my video card draws more than that, but that's effectively what I was talking about. Some of those little integrated HTPC systems can do 720p pretty decently though.

    #38 11 years ago
    Quoted from Frax:

    Pretty sure my video card draws more than that, but that's effectively what I was talking about.

    I'm sure it does, my video card says it draws 210w peak.

    I think Alex simply had a brain fart and posted some of the smallest power consuming parts of a PC by mistake.

    #39 11 years ago

    I think you are missing a decimal point We aren't talking about a nehalem or a westmere or even a sandybridge. For example an Intel Atom draws < 10w. Max draw is around 6.3 at full load.

    In fact the single core 45nm draws less than 3wax at max load.

    65w-100w Processors are used in servers. Dunnington for example is an old power hungry multicore proc. That isn't needed to drive a game like this.

    SSD's draw <1.5w So i meant what i said Not a brain fart, just not the components you are referencing.

    #40 11 years ago
    Quoted from Crash:

    Right, but I'm talking about the blue ribbon cable that interfaces with the display panel, which should be VGA. Going by the pictures it certainly doesn't look like a standard cable.

    Thats the colorDMD. It is a ribbon cable. Definitely not whats being used. The ColorDMD is an LG panel.

    #41 11 years ago

    My 8150 draws 254 watts loaded at 7.3ghz on water Mosfets under water too :{P
    360mm rad up front too. Wouldnt it be nice to open a backbox and see this....my x360 is under water as well.
    Would make more sense for There system to be running a Llano

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    #42 11 years ago

    Akuma, nice to see another cooling geek. Clean installation, like it.

    Your fluid UV reactive or just purple?

    #43 11 years ago

    Ethylene Gycol is more efficient than water cooling. Not sure if that system will run on it though?

    Nice setup Akuma.

    #44 11 years ago

    no uv. Thats just my folding rig. Ln2 test bench is where the magic happens. Nothing cools better than water. I run scca solo class 2 for sport. NOTHING is better than water. Glycol is just for anti freezing properties in cars and preventing scale. Glycol is 5-10% less efficient than water in transferring heat

    #45 11 years ago

    Learn something new every day. I keep hearing conflicting reports from different mag's as to which is better to use. Maybe just use Methanol

    #46 11 years ago

    I run circle track and plain water is good, ran it for a long time. One day decided to try some of the racing coolant additive and it actually ran 5-10 degrees cooler. Only a few types are allowed for tracks to keep from making a mess but that stuff actually surprised me. I am not usually impressed with additives and other trinkets.

    No idea what you guys are saying with the computer stuff. I do understand power consumption. Alex, you are not allow to respond until you have a video to show us! (Kidding)

    #47 11 years ago

    I run water wetter in my car but only 10% mixture.

    #48 11 years ago
    Quoted from AkumaZeto:

    I run water wetter in my car but only 10% mixture.

    Do you think it helps any? I cannot remember whatI am using without looking at the bottle again.

    #49 11 years ago

    yes it makes the boiling temp like 275

    #50 11 years ago

    Sounds similar, I know after a race before with just water it did "steam" at times. After I started running the additive it would come off and do nothing. Made me feel a lot better about the car and truck. (Ran two classes)

    There are 114 posts in this topic. You are on page 1 of 3.

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