(Topic ID: 40878)

Another WOZ Question


By sb80

6 years ago



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  • 106 posts
  • 49 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 6 years ago by sturner
  • Topic is favorited by 2 Pinsiders

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#51 6 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

If that's true, it looks like they will miss another date?
How can they start shipping these in the next 30 days?
What's the latest official word from JJP? What's being said on the JJP forum?
Why do I have so many questions?

Vid is hung up on this notion that this game requires an army to build like stern's and won't listen to anything otherwise. That's fine. People can continue to think that but time and time again its been stated that everything comes from the vendors pre-populated and every connection is quick disconnect. That seems to keep escaping folks who are hanging their hats on fake "facts" someone conjured up as logical.

#52 6 years ago

It's pretty easy to tell those who want JJP and WOZ to succeed, those who want it too fail, and those who just enjoy screwing with both sides

I guess some people just get off on being negative and making other people anxious, a shame really

Can't wait for the inevitable, "It's a great game, but it was sooooo late" posts once it's released.

#53 6 years ago
Quoted from dgpinball:

It's pretty easy to tell those who want JJP and WOZ to succeed, those who want it too fail, and those who just enjoy screwing with both sides
I guess some people just get off on being negative and making other people anxious, a shame really
Can't wait for the inevitable, "It's a great game, but it was sooooo late" posts once it's released.

+1000. There are some people who just want to watch the world burn.

#54 6 years ago

I don't quite understand why as a pinball fan you wouldn't want this to succeed? The more players in the game the better as far as I'm concerned. I simply do not get the mentality of latching onto a specific brand and then proceeding to smash the other options. Maybe it's a way to justify your purchase I guess....Make you feel good about your choice. I've seen this in other hobbies as well. A quick example would be Video Game Systems. If someone buys a PS3 they tend to hate on Nintendo or Microsoft. Don't get it....Just buy and enjoy the others as well. They all contribute something unique. Personally I didn't get in on the ground floor of WOZ but that doesn't mean I wouldn't buy one down the road. I've never had the chance to play one, but have watched several people. It looks to have a ton of potential and I hope it can be realized. If it's a fun game and I can't get enough of it I'm sure that JJP would be happy to ship me one. I'd be happy to set it up right next to my other pins.

#55 6 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

+1000. There are some people who just want to watch the world burn.

People with poisonous personalities ruin a project from the inside out. Would be nice to have an 'ignore user' pinside feature.

#56 6 years ago
Quoted from gorgar007:

Would be nice to have an 'ignore user' pinside feature.

Sarcasm doesn't always come across real well, in a post.

#57 6 years ago
Quoted from TomN:

I don't quite understand why as a pinball fan you wouldn't want this to succeed? The more players in the game the better as far as I'm concerned. I simply do not get the mentality of latching onto a specific brand and then proceeding to smash the other options. Maybe it's a way to justify your purchase I guess....Make you feel good about your choice. I've seen this in other hobbies as well. A quick example would be Video Game Systems. If someone buys a PS3 they tend to hate on Nintendo or Microsoft. Don't get it....Just buy and enjoy the others as well. They all contribute something unique. Personally I didn't get in on the ground floor of WOZ but that doesn't mean I wouldn't buy one down the road. I've never had the chance to play one, but have watched several people. It looks to have a ton of potential and I hope it can be realized. If it's a fun game and I can't get enough of it I'm sure that JJP would be happy to ship me one. I'd be happy to set it up right next to my other pins.

I think that there are plenty of folks here who look at their collection, whether it be 1 or 100 games, as an investment. They are afraid that the JJP game(s) are going to hurt the value of their collection. I love the look of Hulk, but even The Banker has stated how cheap it appears when compared to WOZ and he owns Hulk and has WOZ on order.

When you play and then inspect a WOZ machine you can see where the money went. It is difficult to say the same for Stern's most recent offerings.

#58 6 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

Vid is hung up on this notion that this game requires an army to build like stern's and won't listen to anything otherwise. That's fine. People can continue to think that but time and time again its been stated that everything comes from the vendors pre-populated and every connection is quick disconnect. That seems to keep escaping folks who are hanging their hats on fake "facts" someone conjured up as logical.

Would somebody please tell the guy who is stalking the JJP parking lot about this?

#59 6 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

I think that there are plenty of folks here who look at their collection, whether it be 1 or 100 games, as an investment. They are afraid that the JJP game(s) are going to hurt the value of their collection.

You're probably right. I think they are mistaken. I think the classics will always be sought after and valued, if that is their concern.

#60 6 years ago
Quoted from gorgar007:

People with poisonous personalities ruin a project from the inside out. Would be nice to have an 'ignore user' pinside feature.

See the "Ignore" text at the top of each post? Your request has been granted,

#61 6 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

See the "Ignore" text at the top of each post? Your request has been granted,

I think he was being sarcastic.

At least I hope he was....

#62 6 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

Vid is hung up on this notion that this game requires an army to build like stern's and won't listen to anything otherwise.

I do manufacturing efficiency layout for factories.

That's what I do, get it?

I never said anyone needs an army, so please don't put words in my mouth - and I won't put any in yours. It's just common respect.

Quoted from Pinchroma:

People can continue to think that but time and time again its been stated that everything comes from the vendors pre-populated and every connection is quick disconnect.

You can "state" anything, but "somebody" has to populate those playfields. What vendor would be more efficient that your own factory in populating them? Who, other than Stern could do it better, faster, cheaper?

A business outsources things they can't do better, faster or cheaper themselves.

Can't CNC a wood playfield because you don't have a CNC router? Have a cab shop fabricate them for you.

Can't print your playfield graphics yourself? Send the playfields out to a silkscreener or direct digital printer.

Quick disconnects have been used on every brand of pinball playfields forever. I can install any playfield in the last 40 years in one minute.

-1
#63 6 years ago

So if it doesn't require an "Army" what does the population of the parking lot have anything to do with the ability to produce? The answer is nothing.

A properly efficient setup would result in significantly reduced workforce correct? So the whole "parking lot" crap that keeps getting spewed is ridiculous and solely for the purposes of causing trouble.

You used an interesting word in your previous post, ill quote it:

Quoted from vid1900:

You can "state" anything, but "somebody" has to populate those playfields. What vendor would be more efficient that your own factory in populating them? Who, other than Stern could do it better, faster, cheaper?

A business outsources things they can't do better, faster or cheaper themselves.

The word cheaper keeps coming up. Every company strives to save money but some are not willing to risk their product on "Cheap". So you are correct there may be companies that can do a better job of building wire harnesses or X or Y and the end result is a modularized game that needs but a few hands and a few hours to assemble. So again a "parking lot" full of bodies is not necessary.

2 of my datacenters are run very differently. I have one with 24,000 servers. All come mostly pre-configured from HP. CPU's, Memory, Etc, all pre-populated and only Drives and I/O cards get added. 24,000 servers. 2 employees. They even ship racked.

The second of my datacenters uses whiteboxes. This one with 16,000 servers. Everything built by hand. The whiteboxes are significantly cheaper. SIGNIFICANTLY, but there are 85 people staffed in that DC. One parking lot is full the other isn't yet the first one is MUCH more efficient and the direction we are moving going forward. Building everything yourself may be cheaper but it doesn't always wield the best results.

Since you are a manufacturing efficiency expert you should know this? Why keep pointing out irrelevance.

#64 6 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

So if it doesn't require an "Army" what does the population of the parking lot have anything to do with the ability to produce?

I guess I can't explain it to you, because it's clearly not your field.

When the game starts shipping, we will all see how many employees it takes to unload, assemble, test, box, forklift....

Who will be the first Pinsider to brag that their kid got a job at the warehouse?

#65 6 years ago

Does the size of the assembly line we have seen from photos give a key to understanding how many employees they expect to assemble the game once they are starting production?

#66 6 years ago
Quoted from JoeJet:

Does the size of the assembly line we have seen from photos give a key to understanding how many employees they expect to assemble the game once they are starting production?

Yes, there are efficiency guidelines; for instance, only 2 tool drops (the air or electric tools at each station) per person.

So if there were 40 drops on a line, one could assume it would require more than 20 employees.

How much room is allotted for HiLos in front of the loading docks will show how many can operate at once. Sometimes the State will actually dictate how many drivers per square foot.

#67 6 years ago
Quoted from JoeJet:

Does the size of the assembly line we have seen from photos give a key to understanding how many employees they expect to assemble the game once they are starting production?

No, its not the size of the assembly line that matters but how you use it !

Sorry, had to : )

#68 6 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

No, its not the size of the assembly line that matters but how you use it !

LOL

#69 6 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

No, its not the size of the assembly line that matters but how you use it !
Sorry, had to : )

Said by someone with a small assembly line! *zing!*

#70 6 years ago
Quoted from sturner:

I don't get this. If someone is a newb, I wouldn't encourage them to provide an interest free loan to a new company and wait years for a pinball machine.

Its called crowdsourcing and its the new way to fund projects when banks aren't exactly as keen as they used to be about lending money. Without it innovation could very well dry up and along with it a lot of very slick products will never find a way to reality out of someone's head. Its a great way of securing funds and also gauging interest in a product by targeting the same group who may be interested in said product to provide the funding. ie the more funding you get, the more demand there is likely going to be for your product.

-1
#71 6 years ago

The fact is it takes workers to do work! That's what's going to take if you plan on producing more than a hand full of games. P.F.M will not work, even in OZ. Does he need 10 or 50 workers? Don't know don't care. All you ever see is 5 guys that may or may not be putting games together. It's starting to look a little "Staged" at this point. If their were 25 games done you'd see pictures of them boxed up!! But again I've been completely wrong on the whole topic since over a year ago I summed no machine in 2012. Wonder if 13 is lucky for the Oz?

Is that anything like MLM AKA Multi-Level Marketing?

#72 6 years ago

Your forgetting Raul works there. Having him there is like having 20 workers. It's all good.

#73 6 years ago

What is going to be quite amusing is when Stern releases it's Disney licensed Great and Powerful Oz Pin before JJP gets WOZ distributed...just sayin'...it would be kind-of comical.

#74 6 years ago

Well we are about to find out...no more BS....Jack says on the forum pins start shipping in March "period"......so, he will suffer an explosion of hysterical outcry if it doesn't happen!

#75 6 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

so, he will suffer an explosion of hysterical outcry if it doesn't happen!

He already has several times and moved on..

#76 6 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

Well we are about to find out...no more BS....Jack says on the forum pins start shipping in March "period"......so, he will suffer an explosion of hysterical outcry if it doesn't happen!

Somewhere in the next 31 days a game has to leave the factory. Start the clock.

#77 6 years ago
Quoted from Hobbypinball:

Its called crowdsourcing and its the new way to fund projects when banks aren't exactly as keen as they used to be about lending money. Without it innovation could very well dry up and along with it a lot of very slick products will never find a way to reality out of someone's head. Its a great way of securing funds and also gauging interest in a product by targeting the same group who may be interested in said product to provide the funding. ie the more funding you get, the more demand there is likely going to be for your product.

I know what it is and think it's fine. I just don't think it'd be the place to go for someone new to the hobby. Always going to be an opportunity to buy one down the road.

#78 6 years ago
Quoted from sturner:

I know what it is and think it's fine. I just don't think it'd be the place to go for someone new to the hobby. Always going to be an opportunity to buy one down the road.

I see what you're saying, but some new to the hobby might want a pinball designed from the 21st century and are willing to put some investment into a company that is doing that. I'm not saying you're wrong or slighting you any way there, just saying that maybe those coming into the hobby are looking for some of the things Jack is building into his first pin that aren't available on any other pin yet. Kind of like a car. Lots of people are comfortable buying an older car for their first vehicle while some want the features of a new one. Both can be right is what I'm trying to say. For someone new to the hobby, I'd hope they'd look at both options and go with the one they want or which one they can afford the cost or risk on. Old classic or something new.

#79 6 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

Vid is hung up on this notion that this game requires an army to build like stern's and won't listen to anything otherwise. That's fine. People can continue to think that but time and time again its been stated that everything comes from the vendors pre-populated and every connection is quick disconnect. That seems to keep escaping folks who are hanging their hats on fake "facts" someone conjured up as logical.

I think this is a big reason that the delivery date has been pushed so many times. Too much dependance on other people who don't have your best interest in mind. So in the end you are not saving any time in game production. Wait until these games get produced and see how fast issues get resolved when vendors are busy taking care of other customers or out of business.

Man people are so pissy these days about this game.

Pappy

#80 6 years ago
Quoted from PappyBoyington:

Man people are so pissy these days about this game.

Amen to that.

#81 6 years ago

I agree with Vid 100% that we need to see cars in the parking lot for full production. However, I also posit that JJP can ship a certain number of games pretty quick whenever they get final boards, software they want to ship with, etc. simply because they've been assembling games and playfields for the last few months (thus there are probably a small amount of games pretty much "ready to ship" or close to it).

Of course, this "immediate" number might only be 50, or 25, or even 10 games so it's definitely not "full production". But with the number of playfields, cabinets, and such we've seen in various photos I'd say that if JJP wants to ship machines in March they can. Just probably not very many (as even Jack has indicated in the past that it will take time to ramp up production numbers).

#82 6 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

I think that there are plenty of folks here who look at their collection, whether it be 1 or 100 games, as an investment. They are afraid that the JJP game(s) are going to hurt the value of their collection. I love the look of Hulk, but even The Banker has stated how cheap it appears when compared to WOZ and he owns Hulk and has WOZ on order.
When you play and then inspect a WOZ machine you can see where the money went. It is difficult to say the same for Stern's most recent offerings.

I'd have to agree that when you look at a WOZ pin you can notice the excellent build quality and the attention to detail. When I look at any of the Stern pins they just scream cheap plastic and lack the details, I can't justify there NIB price for there LE models. Even there pro models lack any innovation. Hopefully Stern will step up there pins like JJP did on WOZ.

#83 6 years ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

Somewhere in the next 31 days a game has to leave the factory. Start the clock.

Yep...tick tock!.....

#84 6 years ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

Somewhere in the next 31 days a game has to leave the factory. Start the clock.

I'm making room right now!

#85 6 years ago

looks nice next to my snow blower

woz_at_home.jpg

#86 6 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I'm making room right now!

Good for you vid.

#87 6 years ago
Quoted from Pinchroma:

Vid is hung up on this notion that this game requires an army to build like stern's and won't listen to anything otherwise. That's fine. People can continue to think that but time and time again its been stated that everything comes from the vendors pre-populated and every connection is quick disconnect. That seems to keep escaping folks who are hanging their hats on fake "facts" someone conjured up as logical.

Well, this is wrong, no matter how many times it's stated. Unless I'm really misinterpreting what you mean here. The main pf is bare when it starts the assembly line journey at the JJP factory. Unless you consider having inserts installed as being 'populated.' The components for the mini-pf's are also installed at the factory in side areas. And not every connection is quick-connect. The coils have spade lugs. The Led lights and many switches are soldered to a harness. I examined every single station on the JJP assembly line. Best part of the open house!) There are about 15 stations, although I may be off a bit here. And they may go from 1 to 2 soldering stations, a time-consuming step. The cabinet and backbox assembly also require several steps each.

#88 6 years ago
Quoted from Pintucky:

Doughslingers . . . with any luck, I will see you AND the WOZ pin at the Louisville Expo!
Mike in Kentucky

Please come I booked my room for all three nights. The boys and I had a great time last year.

#89 6 years ago
Quoted from prefontaine79:

wow looks great in there..just wondering how early you bought in to have a game @ your disposal like that...not really but kinda pisses me off that you have one and I don't..enjoy!
(bought in early 2011)

I have a prototype that I am testing earnings and display at the coin machines auctions locally in Kingsport TN and Winston Salem NC
I be happy to sell you one too as I am a distributor for JJP

Buddy

#90 6 years ago
Quoted from StevenP:

The main pf is bare when it starts the assembly line journey at the JJP factory. Unless you consider having inserts installed as being 'populated.' The components for the mini-pf's are also installed at the factory in side areas. And not every connection is quick-connect.

Steve, thank you for clearing that up with some first hand knowledge.

#91 6 years ago

I believe what he's talking about is most sub-assemblies come already pre-assembled. For example, flipper mechanisms come ready to screw on the bottom of the playfield. Wiring harnessess come pre-made, so you don't have rows of women with pegboards stringing cable.

It's more like modular assembly - so yeah, anything that gets screwed into plywood has to be done on the line, but it's more akin to building your own computer system. When you buy a power supply, you can't given a box with a housing, circuit boards, fan and wiring and are then expected to put it together - it comes ready to bolt in the case. Just like for a DVD drive, you don't have to solder in the motor that powers the tray eject mechanism. With WOZ, it seems that most sub-assemblies are ready-to-go, which saves a lot of time over the Stern version of building everything in-house from scratch.

Now... which model is better? I doubt any of US can say. There's something to be said for the control you get by doing everything in-house, but it's probably more cost-effective to have specialized people already in the business of doing something... simply do it. And then, when there's problems, you have someone to bitch to besides yourself!

-1
#92 6 years ago

You guys don't want this game to ship!! We played the game again last night at the Ohio show and I can tell you the flippers can't make the back ramp and the game is still SLOW with the new code 58p. The right ramp is set to far back. It was dumping balls because the software dosen't know how to hold and count the balls so it dumps them for no reason. I saw NO modes.

#93 6 years ago
Quoted from Exejet:

You guys don't want this game to ship!! We played the game again last night at the Ohio show and I can tell you the flippers can't make the back ramp and the game is still SLOW with the new code 58p. The right ramp is set to far back. It was dumping balls because the software dosen't know how to hold and count the balls so it dumps them for no reason. I saw NO modes.

#94 6 years ago

Can you post a video? Not doubting you but would like to see for myself.

Quoted from Exejet:

You guys don't want this game to ship!! We played the game again last night at the Ohio show and I can tell you the flippers can't make the back ramp and the game is still SLOW with the new code 58p. The right ramp is set to far back. It was dumping balls because the software dosen't know how to hold and count the balls so it dumps them for no reason. I saw NO modes.

#95 6 years ago

The problem with Exejet... is he has destroyed his own credibility when it comes to "balanced" statements made about JJP. But I'm a facts guy, so I'm not saying he's wrong, but that I'll wait to hear confirmation from folks with less of an agenda first.

#96 6 years ago

I can second that there are still no modes.

The LE version is running revision 58. Supposedly it was loaded Thursday prior to the show.

Of the two machines here, one has the twister board and corresponding plastic, the other does not. The twister lights do not correspond to anything, yet.

Yellow brick road is still in attract mode (and makes playing the ball difficult at times because it is SOOOO BRIGHT).

The two new additions that I was able to find (in a lengthy game including two multiballs) were:
R-E-S-C-U-E now has an LCD animation.
The Wizard has some LCD love including his head and a "shoot the rollovers" subtext.

The game is still pretty far away.

There is no yellow brick road progression. It shows on the LCD,but not on the pf lights.

The castle pf let's you open the door, but the ball comes right back out. The upper pf loop still does nothing.

The O-Z rollovers register on the LCD, but not on the lighting on the actual playfield.

The crystal ball does nothing. Not even the JJP logo anymore.

The game will lock balls, but there is no memory or detects working. For example: I locked two balls in one game... The next game I played, all three balls were release as though I had gotten multiball on my first ramp ride. Multiball didn't start, the game just gave me out three balls.

That's about as specific as I can recall... Pm me questions if you want me to specifically look for, or try something for you while I'm at the machine later today. I WILL NOT ask about shipping. It's a dead horse.

#97 6 years ago

My 9 year old daughter and 11 year old daughter hit that ramp over and over on the prototype ive had a bunch of times here..they've locked multiball a bunch of times as well...my girls are not a pro by any means.

#98 6 years ago
Quoted from MrDo:

The game is still pretty far away.

This is really disappointing. I was expecting much more progression with the software but it seems as though things are STILL moving very slowly. Very disappointing.

Pappy

#99 6 years ago
Quoted from PappyBoyington:

This is really disappointing. I was expecting much more progression with the software but it seems as though things are STILL moving very slowly. Very disappointing.
Pappy

Same here. Come on!

#100 6 years ago
Quoted from doughslingers:

I have a prototype that I am testing earnings and display at the coin machines auctions locally in Kingsport TN and Winston Salem NC
I be happy to sell you one too as I am a distributor for JJP
Buddy

Lol no thanks as I've already got one coming, and at the discounted price from 2011
Happy for you also, as I envy your distributership with JJP
I've met the man behind the curtain a few times and have expressed the desire to do the same
However, the pic of a WOZ above in somebody's garage with the head down proves/makes my point valid:
I bought in early so I'd be one of the first to get one, but instead all I get is more delays and people posting pics of how they already have theirs, etc.
I'm an OP too, I have locations to test! What makes you any diff from me?
I might not have the cash to put up to distribute but my intensions are 100%
pro JJP.. Just very tired of supporting and being put on the backburner when these machines wouldnt even be made if not for people like me that handed Jack 6500$ in good faith
Been promising WOZ to my biggest location for over a year now and I am starting to feel like a fool when they ask about it..I even listed my spot in line for sale here on pinside because of how long its taken/other family matters (see my FS post)
It would take a pretty penny to give it up but if you would have offered me the $ame a year ago i woulda scoffed in your face with pride that i was on the inside scoop but now I feel like i'm on the outside looking in with all these WOZs on location..test games or not whatever, I'm more excited about Stern's Metallica!!!
Sad but True

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