Surf Champ
Gottlieb, 1976Hi All,
The problem statement is this: hitting any 500 point target on the playfield will score 600 or 700 about >50% of the time.
It happens for all 4 players. It happens for regular targets (D relay) and add bonus targets (E relay). Hundreds (M relay) visually looks to be working correctly to me, as do D and E.
Thoughts on how to resolve this one? Thx!
You'll need to make some observations and do some experiments to gather more data. For example:
- The score motor should turn 1/3 of a turn when 500 points are scored. Does it? Or does it turn more than that?
- Is the problem mechanical or electrical? Use a bulb tester across the score reel solenoid to see how many pulses the solenoid is getting. It should get just 5 pulses for 500 points.
- How many times is the M relay closing when 500 points should be scored? It should fire 5 times.
I suspect that the problem is electrical and that some other scoring switch, perhaps on the A, B or C relays is closing when it shouldn't as 500 points are being added.
Surf Champ M relay (resized).jpg
If you block all three switches in the red boxes with bits of paper, does the problem persist?
/Mark
Great suggestions! Exactly the kind of advice I was hoping for here.
So, as to the second and third tick points -- I've already used my phone slow motion camera on both the M relay and score reel and observe both pulsing 5 times clean...so I'm assuming that answers those (albeit via a different method). Please advise otherwise though.
At your suggestion, I will now investigate the score motor rotation, and test A, B, C switches as directed and report back the results.
Thanks!!!
Quoted from Aper-caper:I've already used my phone slow motion camera on both the M relay and score reel and observe both pulsing 5 times clean.
Does your slow motion video show the Score Reel advancing more than one digit on some pulses?
Quoted from MarkG:Does your slow motion video show the Score Reel advancing more than one digit on some pulses?
That was my thought also. is the score reel mech. worn and allowing the digit to float occasionally.
Yes, I believe that could be a possibility.
I'm working to get a super slo motion image to see it even better, but the preliminary footage in one shot seems to appear to me that by the end of the second plunger stroke (before the third stroke starts) the score wheel has indexed 3 places.
I'm working on pinning that down more conclusively next, along with answers to the rest of Mark's questions above.
What I'm struggling with that answer is how could that failure be occuring the same way on all 4 players hundreds wheels, and only on hundreds wheels -- seems unlikely and perhaps a more centralized cause exists.
I'll get my homework done and report back. Thanks very much for the help
I agree. Try the bulb tester test to see if you're really getting 5 consistent pulses at the Score Reels.
Will do. I had to order a bulb tester today as don't own one, so there will be a delay on that one piece of info.
However I'll do all the other steps and maybe I'll learn something important from one of those...
This week I went through a Flipper Fair and today consentrated why at times it scored
60 points (sometimes 70) when the 50 Point Relay energized. I have no slow-mo, but
I could swear the 10 Point Relay pulse 5 smooth times, so I once again went through the
10's Score Reel, and no change. Although the Score Motor's switch looked properly gaped,
I adjusted the switch that rides on the cam to have a little more tension on the cam, and put a
little more gap between the switches, and that did the trick. It has to be while the 10
Point Relay was on it's way back from the energized position, it once in a while did an extra
(actually maybe like 50%) extra pulse because the Score Motor switch was a little loose/flimsy..
Thanks Mopar, good input. I'll take that into consideration. Last night I studied the score motor and 1A (5 pulse) switch. Visually all looks fine, and the motor turns 1/3 rotation. At this stage, I'm hesitant to mess with it on the basis that 5,000 points score fine. For now, I'll plan come back to that when some other options are exhausted.
Per MarkG (above), I blocked associated A, B, and C, relay switches, but that did not fix the issue.
After further consideration, analysis of slow motion video of the score reels, and some expert council, the current hypothesis is that the score reel plunger is pulling in quicker than it is retracting...which might be allowing the reel to roll an extra digit here and there between pulses.
So, next step is to clean/swap out the sleeve, clean plunger, etc. to improve score reel action to see if that helps. On the other hand, this theory relies on all 4 players hundreds reels having same issue (but not 10s or 1000s). So it is not a slam-dunk, but harmless enough to run to ground as a next step. I suppose the 100's reel sees the most action of the 4 reels. Plus, my machine is 45 years old, seem to have had virtually no maintenance in last 25 years or so maybe they got sticky one by one over time, so who knows?
I'll find out and I'll report back...
Quoted from Aper-caper:I'm hesitant to mess with it on the basis that 5,000 points score fine.
And I have a Surfer but forgot about it having a 5,000 point relay..
Not on a pinball, but on a ball bowler, it was scoring a strike while
on a double strike (30 points) radically. The contacts on the 10 - 90
Relay was a little loose and bouncy. 1 pulse was fine, but not always 3 pulses.
I put a little more pressure on the 10 - 90 Relay's longer switches so that the
relay was a little more stiffer and retracted back to the un-energized position
more firmly, and that solved the problem.
Surfer's switches are much shorter than the 50s and 60s ball bowler switches
which would decrease the chances of that being the problem, but maybe worth a
look.
Thx. Mopar, Not sure I follow the application to my situation...if you would shoot me a quick line back with the specific direction to me? I got lost there because I'm new here. 
So, I've got an update, but not good news.
I rebuilt player 1 100s score reel, disassembled, cleaned everything, put in new sleeve, cleaned switches, etc.etc. Shining like new and working fantastic...but I still have the 500s scoring problem 
Starting to freak out a little...deep breath.
In a few days I'll have a bulb tester to check pulses to the score reels.
Beyond that, anybody got any idea what to try next? Thx.
Maybe I'll try slow motion video capture of 1A score motor switch next...it is in a line of site fortunately.
Quoted from Aper-caper:Maybe I'll try slow motion video capture of 1A score motor switch next...it is in a line of site fortunately.
Like you had stated, if the 5,000 Points are registering properly, I wouldn't think the A1 would be the
problem. The contacts are much shorter on the Surf Champ than on a 60s Ball Bowler, but what I meant
in the other post, I had a Score Relay that must have been a little loose and the contacts must have been
a little bouncy and at times it would add an addition number or two because once in a while the switch must have
been flimsy and doing a double take, so what I did is stiffen it up by twisting the longer switches that go through
the plastic piece that have slotted openings with a contact adjuster. This made the Relay plate return back in
the non-energized position a little more firmly which kept the blades from being flimsy/bouncy..
I guess with a combination of a couple things, it could be the A1, but I'd think maybe it would point to the
100s Point Relay when giving multiple pulses.
Below are links to slow motion video of M relay, and 100s score reel exhibiting issuung 600pts instead of proper 500pts.
Have you checked the "index flat spring" (indicated in the parts diagram) or the gearing? Does the reel feel loose on the shaft (left-right or up-down relative to the attached diagram)? I know it's happening on all four hundreds reels, but it looks like the reel in the video is skidding through some numbers. Hundreds reels don't have the circuit card, do they need a spacer under the C clip to compensate for the missing card?
Score reel (resized).jpg
Quoted from Aper-caper:Below are links to slow motion video of M relay,
It seems at times the 100s Point Relay is doing a little jump. Perhaps the 1,000 Point Relay
is a little stiffer and a somewhat bouncy A1 switch doesn't effect it like it does the 100 Point
Relay. It might be worth looking at that A1 switch once again and with a contact adjuster give
it a little twist so that it's against the cam a little more firmly. Also if possible, maybe adjust a little
more space between the A1 contacts..
I know they have close tolerance, but perhaps a little more gap can also be made on the 100s set of contacts that fire the score reel..
I was watching the slow-mo video of the score reel coil pulling in and something ain't right there. About 11 seconds in, the reel is starting on a 1 and should end on the 6, but instead ends on the 8 - 2 extra moves. Watching the plunger moving in and out, it seems to hang in between the 3rd and 4th pulse, not coming out completely, it's not a clean release between the 4th and 5th pulses either - the lower n/o switch that is supposed to open when the plunger relaxes doesn't even look like it opens between those pulses.
Like the others, I'm leaning toward the problem being electrical since it happens for all players. I don't have a schematic, but there are some smart folks who do helping you out. I'm wondering if it might be a subtle switch timing issue, that the solenoid for the 100's score reels is getting an extra or elongated pulse to fire occasionally.
I think those score reels are free to roll forward until the plunger is almost all the way out, so if the plunger doesn't come out cleanly, the reel can slip a couple places forward. So why is that plunger holding in?
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